Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

Mtazamaji said:

Tataizo mkuu unaji contradict kwenye maelezo yako.

Inapendeza ukidadavua

• tukitoa mifano kwamba azimio lilkuwa failure kivipi .Je was azimio total 100% or even 90% failure. (to me No) Hivi W. J. Malecelahuoni hata japo 20% ya +ve input ya azimio la arusha In Tanzania au unalidhauri sababu kwako ni faliure. Think beyond you and mtazamaji.Think beyond Dar and Dodoma city
• Limetukifisha hapa negatively kaisi gani? Na bila Azmio lenyewe Projection yako Tanzania tungekuwa kama nchi gani ya mfano (Usiseme kenya Please) . Na asilimia ngapi ya watanzania wangekuwa well off or worse of Kielimu, kiuchumi na kupata huduma za jamii.

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- Mtazamaji the Azimio tatizo lake kubwa ni kwamba sio tu limeshindwa kutupa mwongozo as a nation, isipokuwa the worst of all, lime-create a big confusion in our society kwa sababu everything it stood for was unrealistic, I mean huwezi kusomesha wananchi bure, huwezi kuwafanya wananchi wote wakafikiria sawa, huwezi ukawafanya wananchi wote wakawa na vipato sawa, huwezi kuwafanya wananchi wote wakawa na mali sawa, it is impossible na very against human nature!

- Haya ndio mambo baba wa Capitalism Martin Luther aliyakataa kabisaa kule kwenye kanisa la Catholic, na wao walitaka theory za namna hii, binadam anashamiri akipewa nafasi kufanya mambo yake individually huku Serikali ikimuongoza kwa kumuweka sawa kisheria, Binadam anashamiri akiruhusiwa ku-compete na wengine sio kulazimishwa kuwa sawa na wenziwe tena kwa nguvu, Binadam anashamiri akiruhusiwa kuamini anachotaka, lakini sio kulazimishwa kuamini siasa asizozitaka, Azimio did stand for all these wrongs ndio maana kwa wale wengine tulioliona tunashangaa sana kusikia kuna wanaoamini kwamba lilikuwa na good ideas?


I mean Really? what good ideas kama hata the Author could not figure out how to use for the good of our nation? Halafu tizama akasubiri ame-retire and then akaanza kuwashambulia waliobaki kwa kutumia maneno yale yale ya the failure Azimio, that was very wrong na very unfair, under Azimio tukaambiwa kujadili Muungano ni uhaini, tukaambiwa kujaidli Dini ni uhaini, I mean look now,

- Azimio la Zamnzibar, ninaamini tupo sawa nalo kwenye uchumi, isipokuwa kwenye Sheria tu bado tupo nyuma sana, lakini pole pole tutafikia muhimu ni Uchumi kwanza ambao tupo samba mba nao sana!


William.

Kuna watu wanaamini kuwa....
Mzungu asipoongea basi yeye hawezi kusikia! Asipoonesha basi yeye hawezi kuona!
Asipobuni basi ubunifu ndio umeisha!
Akifa basi na yeye ameshakufa!
Embu tujiulize....
Ni lini Tanzania inaweza kupata mtaji wa kuwekeza kwenye visima vya mafuta uarabuni?
Na ni lini Marekani na wenzake ataruhusu serikali huru za kiafrika?
Mbona hata mashuleni tunafundishana UKOLONI MAMBOLEO, je ni kupotezeana muda tu?
MZUNGU NANI KWETU?
Umri wangu mdogo, labda nitaona mengi bado! Lakini under capitalism, "maisha ni marefu sana lakini ni mabaya mno"
Mungu wetu anaita!

W. J. Malecela said:

- OK LETS PUT THE RECORD STRAIGHT:

In Azimio La Arusha we were dead wrong, pamoja na kwamba tunajua kwamba it was not a collective theory zaidi ya kuwa theory za mtu mmoja,

- NINASEMA HIVI AZIMIO LA ARUSHA LILIKUWA NI WRONG NA VERY DEAD KWA SABABU LILIKUWA UNREALISTIC AND AGAINST VERY HUMAN NATURE, NA KWA KAWAIDA VITU VYA NAMNA HIYO HUISHIA KUFA, NDIO MAANA LILIKUFA NA SASA HALITARUDI TENA MAANA NI WASTE!

William.

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Who are you?
What makes you think that you are speaking for the masses? ... what do you do? labda wewe ni mungu au shetani au kiumbe flani a bit powerful than human beings but you can't just say it won't come back!! people can make it come back, it's just a matter of time.

W. J. Malecela said:

- Mtazamaji the Azimio tatizo lake kubwa ni kwamba sio tu limeshindwa kutupa mwongozo as a nation, isipokuwa the worst of all, lime-create a big confusion in our society kwa sababu everything it stood for was unrealistic, I mean huwezi kusomesha wananchi bure, huwezi kuwafanya wananchi wote wakafikiria sawa, huwezi ukawafanya wananchi wote wakawa na vipato sawa, huwezi kuwafanya wananchi wote wakawa na mali sawa, it is impossible na very against human nature!

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Wiliam katika kupambana na challenge na vikwazo vya maendeleo cofusion haziishi. The best way ni kutatua cofusion for the interest of a nation na wananchi. Sasa kama azimio lilikuwa confusion kwa wananchi mbona limetengezwa azimio kuodnoa confusion kwa viongozi tu. Unajua hata baada ya kuachana na azimio bado wananchi wako confused ukiondoa viongozi na wa kisiasa waliojiwekea mazingira ya azimio la zanzibar


Kuhusu

• kusomesha watu bure , au kutibu watu bure hiyo ni choice na priority iiyofikiwa kutokana na challnege ziizokuwepo kipindi fulani. Na sidahni kama ni hard rule kuwa azimio la arusha ni watu kusoma bure watu.Katika uhai wa azimio lilkuwa reviwed na kuna vitu vilirekebisiwha
• Kuhusu watu wote kufikria sawa ni governmet of the day ndiyo inaimpliment policy zake no matter watu wengine wanafikria nini. Ni Leadership ndiyo inatakiwa kutoa (direction) Sasa CCM hata alama zake ni jembe na nyundo. Unaweza kutoa sababu kwa nini hata baada ya kuuliwa azimio mkuima wa mahindi Rukwa awekewe vikwazo kuuza mahindi Zambia . Lakini kiwanda cha mtibwa hakizuiwi kuuza sukari nje ya nchi wakati tanzania kuna uhanaba wasukari . Mkulima anazuziwa kuuza mahindi zambia kupata bei bora sababu mambo hayo hayo uinayopinga "ya kjamaa"na kusema yamezikwa

Haya ndio mambo baba wa Capitalism Martin Luther aliyakataa kabisaa kule kwenye kanisa la Catholic, na wao walitaka theory za namna hii, binadam anashamiri akipewa nafasi kufanya mambo yake individually huku Serikali ikimuongoza kwa kumuweka sawa kisheria, Binadam anashamiri akiruhusiwa ku-compete na wengine sio kulazimishwa kuwa sawa na wenziwe tena kwa nguvu

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Nimekupa mfano wa competiton ya mazao ya chakula kwa wakulima wa Rukwa. Wanapozuiwa kuuza mahindi yaozambia huo ni ujamaa au ndio free maket economy na competiotion. Au wanaofanya hivi wanafuata azimio la arusha

Binadam anashamiri akiruhusiwa kuamini anachotaka, lakini sio kulazimishwa kuamini siasa asizozitaka, Azimio did stand for all these wrongs ndio maana kwa wale wengine tulioliona tunashangaa sana kusikia kuna wanaoamini kwamba lilikuwa na good ideas?

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• Uhuru una mipaka yake
• Katika society kuna leadership
• Good Leader must have A VISION

Na kama azimio lilisimamia all those wrongs vipi wrongs zilizopo sasa ambapo Limefukiwa. Kingine W. J. Malecela cha muhimu labda unachambua -ve za azimio huku Ubongo wako ukiwa 2012. Go back to 1961. Leohii watu bado wanalamika wachaga,wahaya, wanyakuyusa .Hata baada ya juhudi hizo .Sasa jiulize. si hapa ungekuwa unaliponda zaidi azimio.

Kwa mazingira yale, wakati ule It was the right choice. Hata sasa bado ni right choice with some adjustments

I mean Really? what good ideas kama hata the Author could not figure out how to use for the good of our nation? Halafu tizama akasubiri ame-retire and then akaanza kuwashambulia waliobaki kwa kutumia maneno yale yale ya the failure Azimio, that was very wrong na very unfair, under Azimio tukaambiwa kujadili Muungano ni uhaini, tukaambiwa kujaidli Dini ni uhaini, I mean look now,

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Aisee kumbe kwenye azimio imo hiii Duh

- Azimio la Zamnzibar, ninaamini tupo sawa nalo kwenye uchumi, isipokuwa kwenye Sheria tu bado tupo nyuma sana, lakini pole pole tutafikia muhimu ni Uchumi kwanza ambao tupo samba mba nao sana!

William.

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Hahha kwa hiyo hili pole pole KWA Azimio la Zanzibar tutafika. Na kwenye sheria hili azimio La zenj tupo nyuma sababu ya Azimio La arusha . Au sio????

Yaani azimio linawatayarishana kuwasfishia njia viongozi wa umma kuwa mabepari badala nguvu hizo zingelelekezwa kuwaodolewa confunsion wananchi ili wawe mabepari.

Unajua hata Mobutu aliwai kuwaambia wananchi wake anayetaka kujenga Ufaransa au ubelgiji RUKSA. Reaaly ........ Lakini ukweli ni kiini macho kwamba ili yeye kiongizi tena wa uumma akijenga Paris basi iswe issue. Kwani kuna mtu anahoji mtu binafsi kuwa tajiri ?

Hata kiongozi wa umma kuwa tajiri sio kosa .Lakini kwa nini iwe siri mali zao na walizipataje ? Unarudi kwenye Sheria ya maadili ya VIONGOZI.

Nzi said:

Zakumi. I didn't say we should have a new declaration. Basing on what Waberoya and William were arguing - about the lack of legal capacity/power of the Arusha Declaration - I am proposing for a discussion on how we should make use of the relevant statements and directives from the declaration in developing and enacting legislation and regulations that will - by default - enforce the Arusha declaration.

Bearing in mind the fact that legislation are developed and enacted to enforce certain policy statements and directives - so if we could make use of AD - in the context of its statements and directives - we could come up with laws and regulations to enforce issues of lack of accountability among public servants, social/political/economic injustices, state self-reliance etc.

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Inzi,
The problem you guys are having is to try to convert us and accept that Azimio Arusha is a fabulous document and all Tanzanians should rally behind it. That’s a tall order to achieve because majority in your camp don’t read and understand Azimio la Arusha in its entirety. They don’t know what is Ujamaa and what’s AD. So instead of looking for new converts, you need to educate your own supporters.

In addition, we have two sold philosophical camps here. Probably this is the best outcome of Azimio la Arusha, a political spectrum. Those who support should go to the left (wajamaa) and those who don’t should go to the right (wabepari).

Cau

Z10

Iron Lady said:

why do you think AD is not a philosophical document? or that depends on your definition of philosophy
but it is a philosophical document.

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You are streching. Aren't you? It seems to me you haven't read AD.

kobello said:

The biggest of all (there are many) was "political", by leaning left, we were isolated by the international community in things like trade, international financing eg. IMF,WB etc. We were also too pan Africanist (at least labeled as), fighting for our brothers down south, supporting polisario, not recognizing Taiwan, South Korea and Israel. It was of course an uphill battle compared to puppet nations like Kenya.

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Kobello,

...Labda hili ndio lilikuwa tatizo -kwao wao- lililopelekea kununiwa na kususiwa -lacking a better word- na hivyo kutokuwa na mahusiano yenye faida zaidi kiuchumi. And if i may, labda ile total nationalization ilikuwa too distasteful to them.

...With benefit of hindsight, nadhani "left" ya kifaransa ingefaa zaidi, IMO.

kobello said:

I did it myself in undergrad, here in US (nice try but I won't disclose my true ID). Ngoja nishushe data: 1. HISTORY 413 (University of Lorin).."African Political thought" Topic: Neo-colonialism, THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF jkn. 2.University of Idaho, College of Arts and Social Studies. 3. PSCI 4809 (Carleton University); The rise and demise of Populism (African Socialism), in Tanzania. 4.POL 301Y University of Toronto. 5.University of Dar es salaam (kawaulize mwenyewe jina la course). 6.Western oregon University 7.POLS 221 :Baldwin (Mary) College, Staunton VA. 8.LutherCollege, Decorah, Iowa. 9.POL 224, Oberlin College. 10.THE FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY: College of Education.

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...Seems like, it was not a bluff.

Zakumi said:

Kuhusiana na China, kuna wasomi wanaosema kuwa Chairman Mao hakuwa mjamaa. Kutokanana Geo-political ya China, alitumia ujamaa kama device ya ku-extract maximum technical and military aid from Russia. Na alichohakikisha ni kuwa anapata blue prints za technologies zote muhimu. Na baadaye alihamua ku-normalize uhusiano na nchi za magharibi kama Marekani. Nia yake kubwa ilikuwa world domination.

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...Hii kazi sio ilifanywa na Deng?

...Mao si ndiye aliyekuja na cultural revolution? I think, he was a sadist of the highest degree.

Vilevile ushirikiano wa China na Tanzania ilikuwa ni strategy ya wachina katika siasa zao nje. Vyama vyote vya kijamaa duniani vilikuwa kwenye umoja Com-Intern.

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...True.

Lakini kulikuwa na mvutano katika wakomunisti wa China na wale wa Urusi, na wakakubaliana kuwa waRusi waongeze nchi za Ulaya. Na China iongoze nchi za dunia ya za dunia ya tatu au nchi zinazotokana kwenye ukoloni. Hivyo wachina wakai-target Tanzania hili kupanua mtandao wake barani Afrika. Zipo kumbukumbu zinazoonyesha hivyo.

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...Ok.

TANU kilikuwa chama chenye siasa za moderate. Lakini baada ya kuanza kukutana na wachina, mwelekeo ukaanza kubadilika. Kufikia 1967, kikawa tayari chama cha radicals. U-radical huu ulikuwa through conversation. Sera za vijiji vya ujamaa ni ya wachina ambao nayo ilitoka Urusi. Hivyo mtu akisema democracy ni copy and paste inatakiwa ajue kuwa sera ya vijiji ni copy and paste pia.

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...Kwanza, nadhani tatizo au rather chanzo ni africanization. Pili, vijiji vya ujamaa si China au Urusi tu. Hii ilikuwa au na hata sasa -inategemea tafsiri yako- ilikuwa almost kote Ulaya -ili kuweza leta maendeleo kwa haraka na kujilinda. Makes me remember Kibbutzim.

Vilevile Taiwan ndio iliyokuwa inawakilisha China kwenye umoja wa mataifa. China ikatumia nchi za dunia ya Tatu kama Tanzania kupata support ya kupewa kiti cha kuwakilisha China na vilevile kupewa kura ya veto.

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...True.

Hivyo mawazo ya mChina yalikuwa sio kujenga reli ya uhuru. Alikuwa na maslahi yake binafsi.

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...You can say this, again!

JingalaFalsafa said:

Zakumi.
Kumbuka kuwa hicho unachokiita Myth, ndicho kilichopo kwa katika itikadi, imani, falsalsa, mitazamo, desturi, mila, na MANTIKI nafsini mwetu, tangu kuzaliwa mtu mweusi anafundishwa kuishi hivyo, ila tu kwa wale waliopindishiwa mantiki hii na wavamizi purposeful, na hata siku moja hawawezi kututakia mema. Ndio maana leo tunashindwa kuishi upuuzi ubepari, our minds and souls haziko tayari kupokea, ndio maana hatuachi kulalama! Najua na nakiri kabisa , kizazi chetu hakiwezi kushuhudia ujamaa, kwakuw ni attitude of mind kuupokea, lazima tuanze taratibu kufanya mapinduzi ya nafsi zetu, ukishapokewa nafsini mwetu, vitendo vitafuata. (aje, kama naota enh!?) Makanisani/Misikitini watu wanahubiriana, wanajitoa muhanga. Na iwe hivyo kwa ujamaa, nayo ni imani kama nyingine, tofauti ni ndogo tu, kwamba UJAMAA NI IMANI YA MUNGU ALIYE HAI, tofauti na imani nyingine zilizopo sasa, nje ya vitabu vyao. Kizazi chetu kitapita, lakini kijacho kitashuhudia matunda hayo, gharama ya upendo wetu kwao! TUTANGAZE AZIMIO JIPYA.
Mzungu pale alipo, babu zake ndio waliofikiria beyond tomorrow, waliumiza vichwa, kwanini isiwe kwetu kwa vijukuu vyetu humu kaburini tulikozikwa hai na mzungu?
Mtu makini huongozwa na MANTIKI iliyomo nafsini mwake, UTU KWANZA, na si mifumo isimikwayo na hisia za watu. MAISHA NI FURAHA, KAMA HAIPO, NI UPUUZI.
Mungu wetu anaita!

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JLF,

I have read African history to some extent, and I can tell you that we were just brutal as any civilazation. Take for example Mirambo. He wasn't even a king, but through his business deals and military skills he became one just like Lowassa and JK. So the notion that black forks were innocent doesn't add up.

DAR si LAMU said:

Kobello,

...Labda hili ndio lilikuwa tatizo -kwao wao- lililopelekea kununiwa na kususiwa -lacking a better word- na hivyo kutokuwa na mahusiano yenye faida zaidi kiuchumi. And if i may, labda ile total nationalization ilikuwa too distasteful to them.

...With benefit of hindsight, nadhani "left" ya kifaransa ingefaa zaidi, IMO.

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Even better, a scandnavian model is the best to me. The highest standard of living can be found in socialist states, not capitalist states.

Iron Lady said:

The study of Philosophy can be used as a tool that can aid all aspects ofliving and relationships. The real subject of philosophy is oneself and theexamination of oneself, one’s relationships with other people, and one’srelationships with objects and ideas. Philosophy is, therefore, about the world within us, the world between us, andthe world around us.And this world is not just the world of objects, but of thoughts, of ideas, andof values. Philosophy demands an honest look at ourselves and at life.

by this definition , AD is a philosophical document it involves thoughtful ideas and critical ways of solving particular problem. na mengineyo usiishushe hadhi kiasi hicho kutoipenda hakuitoi katika sifa inayostahili pengine.

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Right !!!!!!!!!! Now you assert that every decration made and signed by a political party is indeed a philosophical document.

Zakumi said:

Right !!!!!!!!!! Now you assert that every decration made and signed by a political party is indeed a philosophical document.

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Wrong!!!!!!!
Kwa mfano, falsafa ya nguvu ya umma na itikadi ya mlengo wa kati.
Nguvu ya umma is not a philosophy!!, you have to explain to us people's power in what? How are you going to invest power to the people? Under what philosophy and how did you come up with such a philosophy? Ndiyo maana nasema CDM huwa hawaeleweki unless uwe si mtu makini.

Iron Lady said:

mkuu
some of ideas in Azimio should be permanent things like patriotism,emphasis on hard working, leadership ethics and others of that kind but the strategies to implement azimio were suppose to be temporaly such as villagelization.

i did not say it was to be temporarly what i said is, by that time there were few educated mwalimu been one of those few he came with the idea he believed to bring changes for the good(well being) of the people if there were many educated and patriotic i believe they would have helped mwalimu to make Azimio work more perfectly it is not if there were educated than him they would have refused azimio. i dont think so.

what i ntended to say is educated can decide for the majority but for the good of the whole nation, who said colonialist were educated anyway? but if you take them as educated they dont fit to be in group of making decision for our nation coz they are not part of us hence can not make decion for the good of the nation, their aim was to exploit not to develop. in this case mwalimu and colianist are two things that are different.
i correct you mkuu.

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Hard work is a personal choice why should it be in a national declaration for greatness. People don't work hard for sake of it. They work hard if there's incentive to do so.

Between 1970-1980 when AA was the rule of the land, productivity in Tanzania was down by more than 50%. If hard work is one of your principle, we should have done better back then.

kobello said:

Even better, a scandnavian model is the best to me. The highest standard of living can be found in socialist states, not capitalist states.

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...I may need some more salt, for this food to go down. Au, tafsiri ndio inanigomba?

...I'm more comfortable with the french definition of this monster. And i do envy the Nordics.

DAR si LAMU said:

...I may need some more salt, for this food to go down. Au, tafsiri ndio inanigomba?

...I'm more comfortable with the french definition of this monster. And i do envy the Nordics.

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Ndiyo maanake!
http://able2know.org/topic/55762-1

kobello said:

Wrong!!!!!!!
Kwa mfano, falsafa ya nguvu ya umma na itikadi ya mlengo wa kati.
Nguvu ya umma is not a philosophy!!, you have to explain to us people's power in what? How are you going to invest power to the people? Under what philosophy and how did you come up with such a philosophy? Ndiyo maana nasema CDM huwa hawaeleweki unless uwe si mtu makini.

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AD wasn't a philosophical treatise, and it wasn't intended to be one. However, I am not here to infringe your opinion or that of Iron Lady.

Now concerning CDM, they claim to be Center Right. But I believe it isn't for a political stance. It's for show only.

Zakumi said:

AD wasn't a philosophical treatise, and it wasn't intended to be one. However, I am not here to infringe your opinion or that of Iron Lady.

Now concerning CDM, they claim to be Center Right. But I believe it isn't for a political stance. It's for show only.

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I respect your view.







Arusha Declaration (1967) Commentary by James Ellison, Dickinson College


The Arusha Declaration of 1967 was written principally by Julius Nyerere, the first president of Tanzania, and approved by an executive committee of the Tanganyika African National Union (TANU), the new nation's governing party. The declaration was published just over five years after Tanganyika gained independence from Great Britain, who had governed the territory since 1920 under mandates from the League of Nations and then the United Nations. Tanganyika and Zanzibar united to form Tanzania in 1964. The Arusha Declaration represents the philosophy developed by Nyerere and the Tanganyika African National Union as they worked to bring economic and social development to their impoverished country and navigate the complex global economic and political arena. The declaration outlines policies that together constituted "Ujamaa," Tanzania's unique version of African Socialism, and explains in accessible regional idioms how the citizenry and state policies should work to address...

kobello said:

Even better, a scandnavian model is the best to me. The highest standard of living can be found in socialist states, not capitalist states.

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Have you lived there? I lived in Sweden some years ago, and I can tell you that they pay a hell of taxes. In addition, they are very liberal. For example, the prime minister of Sweden can't impose his will upon majority because he or she is educated. They understand human rights and freedom to choose.

kobello said:

I respect your view.

Arusha Declaration (1967) Commentary by James Ellison, Dickinson College


The Arusha Declaration of 1967 was written principally by Julius Nyerere, the first president of Tanzania, and approved by an executive committee of the Tanganyika African National Union (TANU), the new nation's governing party. The declaration was published just over five years after Tanganyika gained independence from Great Britain, who had governed the territory since 1920 under mandates from the League of Nations and then the United Nations. Tanganyika and Zanzibar united to form Tanzania in 1964. The Arusha Declaration represents the philosophy developed by Nyerere and the Tanganyika African National Union as they worked to bring economic and social development to their impoverished country and navigate the complex global economic and political arena. The declaration outlines policies that together constituted "Ujamaa," Tanzania's unique version of African Socialism, and explains in accessible regional idioms how the citizenry and state policies should work to address...

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Kwikwikwi,

Even Dickson says that The AD REPRESENTS PHILOSOPHY ... He doesn't say The AD IS A PHILOSOPHY. Anyway, my past time activity is to ready the work of socialist leaders. One common thread about them is everybody tried to write something and everybody was philosopher. Kim Jong Sun, Mao Tse Tung, Nyerere, Sekou Toure, etc.