Prof. Shivji apinga sehemu ya hukumu ya kesi ya Lema

5star said:

Unamchokoza.....

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No that's a genuine question that deserves a genuine answer.

And to put it into perspective, aren't some white people, asians etc the same?

I am trying to understand the logic here, perhaps there is some political correctness amok, or an underdeveloped concept that would otherwise make sense, or some information missing?

Ni kweli mkuu. Sheria ni challenge shivji Ana I challenge hukumu/sheria ndio maana kuna vifungu vya kukutia na kukutoa hatiani ila mwisho wa siku final ni majaji tuu....hata Lisu angeweza kuipinga hukumu ya Lema ila sababu yeye ni wakili wa lema ndio maana hajaipinga na badala yake anafurahia ushindi.

Father of All said:

Kupinga au kuunga mkono kwenye masuala ya kisheria ni jambo la kawaida ndiyo maana kukawa na upenyo wa kukata rufaa. Kimsingi masuala ya kisheria siyo sawa na hesabu ambapo moja na moja ni mbili. Kwenye sheria hakuna kukosea au kupatia hadi hukumu ya mwisho kwenye ngazi ya mwisho. Hivyo Shivji hajakosea sawa na akina Lissu wanaopingana na hoja ya Shivji.

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Mtanzania said:

Hii thread ni muhimu sana kwa kujifunza.

Sisi ambao hatujui sheria nashauri tukae pembeni na kuwaacha wenye ujuzi watuelemishe.

Hili suala halina siasa ndani yake wala halina uhusiano na Lema kurudishiwa ubunge au kutokurudishiwa. Hii ni tafsiri kubwa zaidi ya siasa za CCM na CHADEMA.

Tusiivuruge kwa mapenzi ya vyama vya siasa na badala yake tuwaachie wanaojua kuliko sisi watuelemishe.

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Kula tano kwenye bold hapo.

Ndo maana nikaweka alert mwanzo kabisa kule, wasije watu wasioona past their noses wakatokwa nyongo buree.

kama tafsiri ikiwa mtu yeyote mwenye hak ya kupiga kura ana haki ya kufungua kesi ya kupinga matokeo ya uchaguz katka jimbo lolote lile hapa Tz itakuwa bora zaid. kuna sehem watu na washindan wao wamelala sana. cha muhmu ushahid uwepo. kwa hali ilivyo sasa mgombea anatoa rushwa na ushahd upo lakin haikuhusu. ovyo.

frank cain said:

kama tafsiri ikiwa mtu yeyote mwenye hak ya kupiga kura ana haki ya kufungua kesi ya kupinga matokeo ya uchaguz katka jimbo lolote lile hapa Tz itakuwa bora zaid. kuna sehem watu na washindan wao wamelala sana. cha muhmu ushahid uwepo. kwa hali ilivyo sasa mgombea anatoa rushwa na ushahd upo lakin haikuhusu. ovyo.

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Point ya muhimu ni, lile bunge ni bunge gani?

Ni bunge la Jamhuri ya Muungano au ni bunge la jimbo? Linatunga sheria za Jamhuri ya Muungano au sheria za jimbo? Kama ni bunge la Jamhuri ya Muungano basi mtu yeyote aliye raia katika Jamhuri ya Muungano aweze kufungua kesi. Kama ni bunge la jimbo mtu yeyote aliye mkazi/ mpiga kura wa jimbo aweze kufungua kesi.

Kiranga said:

Kula tano kwenye bold hapo.

Ndo maana nikaweka alert mwanzo kabisa kule, wasije watu wasioona past their noses wakatokwa nyongo buree.

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..."gwiji"...kama hutaki kejeli usitoe kejeli...mambo ya nyongo achana nayo...mjadala mzuri.

Wanafiki utawaona tu kwa kauli zao mbilimbili.Kama mpiga kura anayo haki ya kufungua kesi na kushitaki kwa chaguzi zote mbona hatujaruhusiwa kufungua kesi dhidi ya matokeo ya uraisi tangu 1995 pale Mrema na Hamadi walipopolwa ushindi wao kisa tume imetangaza matokeo feki?Tangu 1995 hadi 2010 huyu profesa alikuwa wapi asitutetee raia kwa hili hadi leo hii mbunge wa watu kapewa ushindi ndio anasema hivyo?Hatutaki mambo ya Jambiani au Kibanda maiti.

mimi sio mwanasheria kama EMT,lakini maana ya locus standi hapa chini iliwafanya wale majaji wa mahakama ya rufaa kuona uamuzi wa gamba jaji rwakabila(whatever the name is)is a total garbage and they trashed it to the bin..kuanzia sasa mahakamani sio sehemu ya kwenda kupotezea watu mda.

Locus standi, a Latin phrase meaning "place to stand" refers to whether or not someone has the right to be heard in court. People may use the term "standing" or "legal standing" to describe this concept. A number of factors can influence locus standi for a given person or situation and legal standing can vary depending on the level of the court as well.
This term applies to people who want to bring suits, individuals who want to address the court, and people who want to be heard in the court. As a general rule, a person has locus standi in a given situation if it is possible to demonstrate that the issue at hand is causing harm and that an action undertaken by the court could redress that harm. If these conditions cannot be satisfied, the court may determine that an issue has no locus standi, and it will not review it.

Kiranga, 1. mgombea anatoa rushwa. ushahd upo ilahuruhusiw kupinga mahakaman. haikuhusu 2. una ushaid wa kuchakachua matokeo. usifungue kes maana utaulizwa si ulipiga kura? wawashwani? wasijue kuwa unapochakachua una-deflect kura yangu pia. tuachane na mambo ya WEW ULIPIGA KURA KWA UHURU kwa hyo subir matokeo tu au WEW HUKUPIGA KURA HAPA. haki ya Mtz yeyote isiishie jimbon pake tu au ktka kupiga kura tu. after all leo upo ilala kesho uko musoma. wagombea wa majimbo yote Tz lazma wafuate taratbu tulizojiwe

Nisichokubaliana na Shivji ni kusema kuwa hukumu hii ya Lema inaandika upya sheria na ile ya Mgonja inatafasiri Sheria. Kwangu Mimi hukumu zote zinatafasiri sheria kwa usahihi wake kwa mujibu wa Mahakama husika. Ikumbukwe pia kuwa hukumu ya Mgonja iliishia Mahakama kuu na haikufika mahakama ya rufaa. Yawezekana kabisa kuwa Kama ingekatiwa rufaa hii tafasiri iliyotolewa na mahakama ya rufaa hivi karibuni ingekuwaimeshatolewa. Hukumu hii haimuzuiimpiga kura kufungua kesi Bali inaelekeza afungue kesi ikiwa tu ameathirika katika haki yake, ambayo hata hivyo sidhani Kama imefugwa kwa yeye kutopiga kura tu.

Manyi said:

"Lakini Profesa Shivji aliitetea hukumu hiyo ya Mgonja akisema imekuwapo kwa zaidi ya miaka 30 sasa na kwamba kwa muda wote huo imekuwa ikifuatwa katika uamuzi wa mashauri mbalimbali, huku akisisitiza kuwa Mahakama haiwezi kuifuta kirahisi tu."

Mimi siyo mwanasheria, lakini kwa tafsiri rahisi tu, sidhani kama hii ni sahihi kama anavyosema Prof. Shivji!

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Mahakama ya Rufaa ina mamlaka ya kwenda kinyume na kesi iliyoamuliwa huko nyuma regardless ni lini.

Mahakama ya Rufaa can even depart from its previous decision, if it finds later kuwa hiyo kesi iliaamuliwa kimakosa.

Labda Prof. Shivji alitaka Mahakama ya Rufaa ikae full bench ili ku-overrule kesi ya Mgonja.

Kiranga said:

Aren't some black people unsuitable to serve on juries?

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Who are those "some black people"?

EMT said:

Who are those "some black people"?

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Vegetables.

EMT said:

Mahakama ya Rufaa ina mamlaka ya kwenye kinyume na kesi iliyoamuliwa huko nyuma regardless ni lini.

Mahakama ya Rufaa can even departs from its previous decision, if it finds later kuwa hiyo kesi iliaamuliwa kimakosa.

Labda Prof. Shivji alitaka Mahakama ya ikae full bench ili ku-overrule kesi ya Mgonja.

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EMT nimekua nikifuatilia hili swala la hukumu ya Lema na nimejikuta hata ile dhamira ya kuona, kuna haki katika sheria inakuwa inatoweka.

labda leo niulize tena hivi hap kwani kila hukumu inayotumiwa kama reference kwenye hukumu nyingine ni hukumu iliyoamuliwa kwa haki?? je kuna vitu gani ambavyo hutumika ili kuipa hukumu hiyo credit ya kutumiwa kama reference?? labda tuanzie hpo kabla ya kwenda mbai zaid.

Kiranga said:

Vegetables.

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lol. Wakati anatoa hiyo comment, kulikuwa na debate Uingereza iliyoanzishwa na watu weusi hasa wale waliokabiliwa na kesi za jina kuwa walikuwa hawatendewi haki na juries iliyokuwa na members wazungu tuu.

So, walitaka kuwa na "some black people" particularly whether the accused was black.

Ndo Denning kaja na hiyo comment

But as far as locus standi is concerned, he had always said: "I regard it as a matter of high constitutional principle that, if there is good ground for supposing that a government department or a public authority is transgressing the law, or is about to transgress it, in a way which offends or injures thousands of Her Majesty's subjects, then any one of those offended or injured can draw it to the attention of the courts of law and seek to have the law enforced, and the courts in their discretion can grant whatever remedy is appropriate....

In these days when government departments and public authorities have such powers and influence, this is a most important safeguard for the ordinary citizens of this country; so that they can see that those great powers and influence are exercised in accordance with law." - Attorney General (on the relation of McWhirter) v Independent Broadcasting Authority [1973] 1 All ER 689, 698

EMT said:

lol. Wakati anatoa hiyo comment, kulikuwa na debate Uingereza iliyoanzishwa na watu weusi hasa wale waliokabiliwa na kesi za jina kuwa walikuwa hawatendewi haki na juries iliyokuwa na members wazungu tuu.

So, walitaka kuwa na "some black people" particularly whether the accused was black.

Ndo Denning kaja na hiyo comment

But as far as locus standi is concerned, he had always said: "I regard it as a matter of high constitutional principle that, if there is good ground for supposing that a government department or a public authority is transgressing the law, or is about to transgress it, in a way which offends or injures thousands of Her Majesty's subjects, then any one of those offended or injured can draw it to the attention of the courts of law and seek to have the law enforced, and the courts in their discretion can grant whatever remedy is appropriate....

In these days when government departments and public authorities have such powers and influence, this is a most important safeguard for the ordinary citizens of this country; so that they can see that those great powers and influence are exercised in accordance with law." - Attorney General (on the relation of McWhirter) v Independent Broadcasting Authority [1973] 1 All ER 689, 698

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Na hao ndo tuliokopi sheria kwao, wenyewe wanasema hivyo!

gfsonwin said:

EMT nimekua nikifuatilia hili swala la hukumu ya Lema na nimejikuta hata ile dhamira ya kuona, kuna haki katika sheria inakuwa inatoweka.

labda leo niulize tena hivi hap kwani kila hukumu inayotumiwa kama reference kwenye hukumu nyingine ni hukumu iliyoamuliwa kwa haki??

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Not necessarily. Kama kweli kesi ya Mgonja iliamuliwa kimakosa kama ilivyosema Mahakama ya Rufaa, ina maana kuwa tulikuwa tunatumia "bad law" kwa miaka hiyo 30.

je kuna vitu gani ambavyo hutumika ili kuipa hukumu hiyo credit ya kutumiwa kama reference?? labda tuanzie hpo kabla ya kwenda mbai zaid.

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Huku iliyotolewa na Mahakama ya Rufaa ina-binds mahakama zote za chini mpaka pale Mahakama ya Rufaa itakapotengua hiyo hukumu au Bunge lipitishe sheria kubatilisha hiyo hukumu.

Vile vile huku iliyotolewa na Mahakama Kuu ina-binds mahakama zote za chini, lakini hai-bind Mahakama ya Rufaa.

ZeMarcopolo said:

Kitu ambacho ni interesting zaidi katika hii kesi ni kwamba jambo la msingi la matumizi ya matusi na lugha za kibaguzi halijapewa kabisa nafasi na mahakama, badala yake technicalities ndio zilizoamua final verdict.
Wakati mwingine ndio maana naona hizi kazi ambazo maamuzi yake hayana standard measures ni za headache sana...

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Hapo kwenye red; how? Mahakama ingetoaje nafasi wakati hayo "matusi" na "lugha za kibaguzi" havikuwepo? Mkuu, mahakamani ni ushahidi tena usio na shaka vinginevyo kama "waathirika" walishindwa kutoa facts, mahakama isingeweza kufanya chochote tofauti na ilivyofanya.

EMT said:

Not necessarily. Kama kweli kesi ya Mgonja iliamuliwa kimakosa kama ilivyosema Mahakama ya Rufaa, ina maana kuwa tulikuwa tunamiwa "bad law" kwa miaka hiyo 30.



Huku iliyotolewa na Mahakama ya Rufaa ina-binds mahakama zote za chini mpaka pale Mahakama ya Rufaa itakapotengua hiyo hukumu au Bunge lipitishe sheria kubatilisha hiyo hukumu.

Vile vile huku iliyotolewa na Mahakama Kuu ina-binds mahakama zote za chini, lakini hai-bind Mahakama ya Rufaa.

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that's where the contradiction comes as te same law have been used for the past 30 yrs, leo inaoneka ni makosa haikuwa ya haki kwann isionekane kuwa na makosa muda wote huo?? na je hukumu ozte zilizo amuliwa kufuatana na sheria hiyo je zaweza kuibuliwa upya kwa kigezo kwamba zilitumia sheria iliyokosewa??

ungonella wa ukweli said:

Yale yale,pilipili usiyoila yakuwashia nin? Mimi nimemtukana let say juma, John anafungua kesi,je inamuhusu nin?

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Nadhani ili hii issue ieleweke vizuri kuna haja ya mjadala mpana juu ya matusi na athari zake kwa mahusiano ya kijamii. Je, matusi yana madhara yoyote (-ve or +ve) kwa "mpita njia" au mpiga kura? Kwanza mie naona yangemsaidia sana Batilda kupata "KURA ZA HURUMA". Hilo ni somo jingine.

Hata hivyo uzuri ni kwamba kwenye mada iliyoko mezani, Lema hakutukana kwani hakuna aliyeweza kuthibitisha hivyo; hoja ya kwanza inakuwa void. Na hata kama angetukana wale jamaa hawakuwa na "locus standi" na kwa mara nyingine issue nzima inakuwa void na ndio maamuzi yaliyofikiwa na CA.