Property Market in DAR...

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 28, 2008

So how does this scenario illustrate government regulations of real estate pricing? Just because a private or commercial bank does not believe your house is worth what you claim it's worth or what you have paid for does not make that a government regulation. You can still turn around and sell that same house for $17m if you could find someone willing to buy it.

of course i said you can do that in a black market,BUT if you are in US wait for IRS come knock around your door.or if you are in too deep then you will live that way.avoiding them forever!
of course it is a government regulation,those banks are working under supervision from treasury and such monetary supervision from central governments.

I don't believe that is true. Of course I could be wrong so I would like to see proof of what you are talking about. A documentation that lists that a potential buyer has to provide proof that they got the money in a clean way would suffice.

i am not about to release documentations that will benefit no one here.JUST know of their existence my friend.if u ever try that in those countries.that is what u are going to face.of course in Japan,US and China they even do background checking.and if you are a foreigner....,they come knock to your employee!ofcourse am not talking about renting which can be done rather easily once u have valid reason to reside in those countries in case u r a foreigner

You may crack down on the government officials but who is to stop someone selling or renting an expensive house to a private individual or expat or UN official etc?

in Tanzania we don't have annual income filling,mwalimu wa secondari anayelipwa under $1K kwa mwezi anaweza nunua nyumba ya $50 with no one asking for proof of such income.

BUT in countries like US u have to file you TAX reports every year..,and those guys from IRS are smart enough to know what u can afford,and everyone who has a certain way of stable income does that.not only gov officials!!if u didn't know this pole.

also,you should Know hao unaowaita "UN officials" hakuna anayeweza nunua property ya $500K dar,few can afford it.and unless they are tanzanians,they wouldn't want to risk their 401K's and their childrens quality educations on that!!they don't make that much money!!ujue hivyo!!their employers:UN can rent for them.BUT thats about all they can do!not BUY!!

I would also like to add, if America and Japan had real estate price regulations how come they too had a real estate bubble? How come there are expensive homes for sale in those countries?

Huelewi ndugu?!they had them,BUT people had money!!kule kuna kitu kinaitwa financing..,as long u could secure that..,then the house was urs.

YES the market controls the price,BUT only when that reflects the economic situation..,in US,JAPAN,CHINA,EUROPE property markets are connected with the stock market,that is why when DOW was kicking a** above 15000 points durig early 2000's everyone went out and buy those properties..,now its hitting rock bottom.those stupidos are out in the street!!

the us governments regulations were not that strict at that time,and this is mainly due to the administration that was there:BUSH!

BUT they had very clear regulations...,ony relaxed..,and the price they pay now is for everyone to see.

For example, the same sized house say 2000 sq. ft, the same design may cost you X amount of money in state A and Y amount of money in state B. It sounds to me that it is the market that determines how that same house is worth and what individuals are willing to pay for that house

just because different states have different prices it doesn't mean that those houses are overpriced!!

what do u expect an executive working in NY making $10m a year to go live?Manhattan.right..,why couldn't he afford a $1M house?!

i just don't see that person in dar.

Plus have you seen those houses?so called luxury apartments in some website some guys just posted here?!one word..,"Pathetic"for their prices..,

they are OK but not luxury..,even sellers knows that.

there are way better apartments in brooklyn,and they go for a much lower price,i tell ya.and its in NY!

Mama Subi · Dec 28, 2008

Wakuu mimi mawazo yango hi haya:

1. Watu wengi sana TZ wanabiashara za pembeni ambazo sio rasmi kwahivyo hazitambuliki na TRA, Brela etc. Biashara hizi zinaweza kua zinampatia mtu kipato kikubwa kuliko hata mshahara wake rasmi. Kwa hiyo msishangae pale mnapomuona mwalimu ama mtumishi mwingine wa serekali nameweza kujikwamua na umasikini mkadhani wote wezi. (TRA needs to get off its ass and track down and occasionally educate the average mtanzania ili aone umuhimu wa kuchangie kwenye ulipaji wa kodi. Lakini sijui kama ni sahihi kuwalaumu TRA peke yake maana watu wanaotakiwa ku regulate leseni za biashara ni BRELA).

2. Watanzania walio wengi hawajajenga nyumba zao kwa kutumia mortgages za mabenki. Wamejenga kidogo kidogo kwa kipato cha pesa taslimu. Kwa hivyo, wao wana liberty ya kuuza kwa bei wanayoona itawaletea faida wao kwa wakati huo.

3. Hakuna nyumba inayouzwa kwenye surveyed area (i.e. zile zenye offer na title deeds) bila ya mthamini wa serekali kuidhinisha kwamba imekaguiwa na thamani yake ni hiyo iliyotajwa. Na wana rates za maeneo kwa ajili ya ardhi na per square metre prices kwa ajili ya majengo yenyewe.

4. Sio kweli kwamba U.S. etc wanapanga bei za nyumba. Labda mabenki yanayotoa mikopo ndio wanapanga bei au wanavigezo fulani wanavyoviangalia kwenye kuthamini nyumba. It's always supply and demand.

5. Mabenki wanakuaga na prices mbili i.e. property value na market value. One outweighs the other when you seek a mortgage and vice versa when they are disposing a property owned by a mortgage defaulter.

6. Mkumbuke pis kwa TZ, so far mabenki mengi yalikuwa hayakopeshi. Na yaliyokua yanakopesha malipo yalikua within 5 years, na interest rates za 18-24%! Kwa hiyo nyumba ya 200million ilikuwa inalipiwa up to 360million in 3 to 5 years. Sasa unategemea huyo mtu aiuze kwa bei gani?

7. Vifaa vingi vinavyotumika kwenye ujenzi ni imported!! Huwezi linganisha na US etc ambapo wana manufacture wenyewe. Wahindi wanaleta bidhaa za ujenzi na wana charge bei za kibiashara sio charity.

8. Wenzetu nchi za nje wana housing unions etc na serikali zao zina subsidise nyumba kwa ajili ya "maskini" (wale wenye kipato kidogo ama wasionacho kabisa). Sisi Tanzania ni kila mtu kivyake maana NHC imeshindwa kazi!

There are so many factors that are contributing to the high prices of properties in TZ. Lakini kwavile sasa wana-EPA wanabanwa banwa na mortgage act imepitishwa bungeni, huko tunakoenda tunategemea bei zishuke kidogo. Lakini kusema kwamba nyumba ziwe $100k Oysterbay na Masaki ni kujidanganya maana the actual cost of just the cement that has gone into building those houses is more than that!!

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 28, 2008

Mama Subi said:
Wakuu mimi mawazo yango hi haya:

1. Watu wengi sana TZ wanabiashara za pembeni ambazo sio rasmi kwahivyo hazitambuliki na TRA, Brela etc. Biashara hizi zinaweza kua zinampatia mtu kipato kikubwa kuliko hata mshahara wake rasmi. Kwa hiyo msishangae pale mnapomuona mwalimu ama mtumishi mwingine wa serekali nameweza kujikwamua na umasikini mkadhani wote wezi. (TRA needs to get off its ass and track down and occasionally educate the average mtanzania ili aone umuhimu wa kuchangie kwenye ulipaji wa kodi. Lakini sijui kama ni sahihi kuwalaumu TRA peke yake maana watu wanaotakiwa ku regulate leseni za biashara ni BRELA).

Click to expand...

that is very true of Tanzania,BUT looking at a larger picture.even if all those "side" revenues were tracked,and they happened to be legal.no chance of a civil servant owning a $1m house.huyu mtu alikuwa anafanya biashara TANZANIA jamani,sio WALL STREET,how can u get rich while people surrounding you are poor?!
i would say such a person,if successful and honest he could afford a house at around $100k-$200k.
since revenues za hizo biashara zake does not translate to his wealth.BUT rather the net profits-minus all the running costs of his family.
from my experience,salary za watu wengi TZ zinaisha in the first 2 weeks after that the next two weeks ni hizo side businesses..,be it legal or corruption!

2. Watanzania walio wengi hawajajenga nyumba zao kwa kutumia mortgages za mabenki. Wamejenga kidogo kidogo kwa kipato cha pesa taslimu. Kwa hivyo, wao wana liberty ya kuuza kwa bei wanayoona itawaletea faida wao kwa wakati huo.

Click to expand...

Well said,
But one thing to be noted ni kuwa hizi HOT PROPERTIES being sold in Dar now,hardly fall in that category.most are indians or gov officials who take loans or use their own property to build these new houses within a year or two.and put them on sale as luxury apartments,or expatriates heaven.

3. Hakuna nyumba inayouzwa kwenye surveyed area (i.e. zile zenye offer na title deeds) bila ya mthamini wa serekali kuidhinisha kwamba imekaguiwa na thamani yake ni hiyo iliyotajwa. Na wana rates za maeneo kwa ajili ya ardhi na per square metre prices kwa ajili ya majengo yenyewe.

Click to expand...

correct me if am wrong BUT i would assume properties za UPANGA na masaki peninsula to meet those qualifications.question is,can a property in UPANGA be evaluated and rated at $1.5m especially in current economic conditions?!

4. Sio kweli kwamba U.S. etc wanapanga bei za nyumba. Labda mabenki yanayotoa mikopo ndio wanapanga bei au wanavigezo fulani wanavyoviangalia kwenye kuthamini nyumba. It's always supply and demand.

Click to expand...

i agree with you about the demand and supply thing.BUT that is not about everything.cause if you sell your property at a fishy price..,IRS is right there on your butt!
actually kuna criterias ambazo developers should adhere to have his property fall under a certain price window,they don't tel them u sell this at $10,0000 per square meter.no.they do have clear sets of guidelines especially for developers.
for home owners,US municipals have agencies that do that job every two or three years..,U just don't wake up and say my house is worth $10M!no way!

5. Mabenki wanakuaga na prices mbili i.e. property value na market value. One outweighs the other when you seek a mortgage and vice versa when they are disposing a property owned by a mortgage defaulter.

Click to expand...

you couldn't have said it better!

6. Mkumbuke pis kwa TZ, so far mabenki mengi yalikuwa hayakopeshi. Na yaliyokua yanakopesha malipo yalikua within 5 years, na interest rates za 18-24%! Kwa hiyo nyumba ya 200million ilikuwa inalipiwa up to 360million in 3 to 5 years. Sasa unategemea huyo mtu aiuze kwa bei gani?

7. Vifaa vingi vinavyotumika kwenye ujenzi ni imported!! Huwezi linganisha na US etc ambapo wana manufacture wenyewe. Wahindi wanaleta bidhaa za ujenzi na wana charge bei za kibiashara sio charity.

8. Wenzetu nchi za nje wana housing unions etc na serikali zao zina subsidise nyumba kwa ajili ya "maskini" (wale wenye kipato kidogo ama wasionacho kabisa). Sisi Tanzania ni kila mtu kivyake maana NHC imeshindwa kazi!

Click to expand...

All these are due to disfunctional policies from our governments,central and local...,no one cares.

There are so many factors that are contributing to the high prices of properties in TZ. Lakini kwavile sasa wana-EPA wanabanwa banwa na mortgage act imepitishwa bungeni, huko tunakoenda tunategemea bei zishuke kidogo. Lakini kusema kwamba nyumba ziwe $100k Oysterbay na Masaki ni kujidanganya maana the actual cost of just the cement that has gone into building those houses is more than that!!

Click to expand...

JUST because you spent $200K building your house it doesn't mean that the house will cost no less than that!!NO WAY..,it's the quality of the house and so many other things..,

for those unfamiliar with how US regulates the market prices,check this link here
How Estimates of Market Value are Determined for Residential Properties

here is a few kicks from what NY city does to put values on properties

"New York State Law requires all properties in each municipality to be assessed at a uniform percentage of market value each year. This means that all properties in each city, town, or village must be assessed at market value or all at the same uniform percentage of market value each year."

"Once the market value of each property is determined, the assessor applies the municipal-wide level of assessment to the market values.In many communities, where assessments are maintained at a level of assessment of 100, a property's assessment is the assessor's estimate of its market value"
"The tax assessment is a tool local governments use to exact a property tax rate on residents. The local government determines your homes worth by reassessing the homes in the area you live in periodically."

and this says that,a seller doesn't have 100% say of how much his/her property is worth!it's not as easy as it sounds.

"If one determines the market value of his or her property and feels that the assessor's estimate of market value (upon which the assessment is based) is too high, then the property owner should contact the assessor's office to learn the procedures for informal assessment review. During the informal review process, the property owner and the assessor can each discuss the property's inventory (or characteristics) and how the market value estimates were determined. If the property owner remains unsatisfied with the assessment, he or she has the right to formal administrative and judicial review of the assessment. The assessor can provide the property owner with information on these processes."

in the end no one will tell you how much asking price you should put.BUT if the appraiser and the assessor summed up things and say its somewhere around $200k it's impossible to sell that house for $500k!!YES IN USA SOMEHOW THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLS THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTIES THROUGH MANY FACTORS!!

Mwanjelwa · Dec 28, 2008

Pangupakavu, mama subi na wengine, this is very useful post. Some of us are following it very closely because we have been in darkness for the things explained here expertly. I am wondering about those people with mansions in remotes areas such as Mbezi mwisho chini huko, or Mbagala kuu, Mbagala-kiburugwa and Mbagala-Charambe, where when rain season nears, you have to go shopping for a canoe!

Zakumi · Dec 28, 2008

Mama Subi said:
Wakuu mimi mawazo yango hi haya:

There are so many factors that are contributing to the high prices of properties in TZ. Lakini kwavile sasa wana-EPA wanabanwa banwa na mortgage act imepitishwa bungeni, huko tunakoenda tunategemea bei zishuke kidogo. Lakini kusema kwamba nyumba ziwe $100k Oysterbay na Masaki ni kujidanganya maana the actual cost of just the cement that has gone into building those houses is more than that!!

Mama Subi:

Factors zote ulizotaja zinachangia bei. Lakini sababu kubwa inayofanya bei ziwe kubwa ni watanzania kushindwa kutumia ubunifu tu katika mambo yanayofanya bei za nyumba kuwa za chini.

Kwa mfano unataja cement kuongeza bei. Ukweli nyumba za Tanzania zinatumia cement nyingi kuliko za Marekani na bado ni mabanda.

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 28, 2008

just because your house looks like the one in the music video,it doesn't mean they cost the same!

just because mhindi kakuuzia bulb bomu for tshs2 0 thousand..,doesn't make that bulb worth Tshs 20 thousand!especially when you want to sell it!

ni muda muafaka watanzania wakaanza kuji-motivate with quality.one funny thing is that,having a quality home does not mean buying the most expensive construction utilities when you build it!

wajasiria mali wa Tanzania should take time to let tanzanian's learn more on how to enhance & preserve their property values.

kuna leo na kesho.U might spend 100milion building a house BUT by the time regulations are in place to re-evaluate the value of your house,the value can be higher or lower!

if we look forward lets say 20 years.a good governance is in place,leaders are responsible, property regulations are in place and up to date.Huge percent ya nyumba Tanzania will likely fall in price,no matter how much money spent building them.

simple reason is they are not future proof.watu bado wanajenga nyumba kienyeji mno.mafundi wa kuunga.nyumba ziko substandard(nadhani tunakumbuka gorofa lilianguka POSTA) etc.

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 28, 2008

Photo Gallery

look at these cheap furniture.ushauri wa bure kwa hawa developers..,

hao ma expatriates wanaowatega na hizo "Luxury apartments" values real wood so much over Fake wood!they should have known better..,
why would they use compressed "makapi ya mbao" why??that's just another gaffe..,in so many gaffes these developers do.
that stuff must have been imported from Asian..,china or thailand i guess.

i don't know if that is the new style in TZ kuweka low quality furniture..,or what.But i didn't expect to see it in an apartment that advertises itself as a Luxury one!
Photo Gallery

why did they put such a pathetic Hood??!!did that cost 50 bucks?
the kitchen is another sad story.what kind of planners do these guys employ?!au wanadesign wenyewe?!

i am no house design expert but i can tell the kitchen is already outdated.no room for expandability at all,where is that room for upgrades?!complete remodeling?!

The Truth · Dec 28, 2008

pangupakavu said:
of course i said you can do that in a black market,BUT if you are in US wait for IRS come knock around your door.or if you are in too deep then you will live that way.avoiding them forever!
of course it is a government regulation,those banks are working under supervision from treasury and such monetary supervision from central governments.

So if you want to sell your house for more than what a private or commercial bank believes it's worth then you have to sell it in a black market? Is this what you are telling me? With all due respect I don't think you know what you are talking about.

pangupakavu said:
i am not about to release documentations that will benefit no one here.JUST know of their existence my friend.if u ever try that in those countries.that is what u are going to face.of course in Japan,US and China they even do background checking.and if you are a foreigner....,they come knock to your employee!ofcourse am not talking about renting which can be done rather easily once u have valid reason to reside in those countries in case u r a foreigner

I don't believe such documentations exist that's why you didn't produce them. How you believe or think the process of buying a house in America is not actually the way it is.

pangupakavu said:
in Tanzania we don't have annual income filling,mwalimu wa secondari anayelipwa under $1K kwa mwezi anaweza nunua nyumba ya $50 with no one asking for proof of such income.

BUT in countries like US u have to file you TAX reports every year..,and those guys from IRS are smart enough to know what u can afford,and everyone who has a certain way of stable income does that.not only gov officials!!if u didn't know this pole.

also,you should Know hao unaowaita "UN officials" hakuna anayeweza nunua property ya $500K dar,few can afford it.and unless they are tanzanians,they wouldn't want to risk their 401K's and their childrens quality educations on that!!they don't make that much money!!ujue hivyo!!their employers:UN can rent for them.BUT thats about all they can do!not BUY!!

OK, suppose you are right about only few UN officials being able to afford those houses, that leaves the other people I mentioned i.e. private individuals, expats? Forget about school teachers because I don't believe that's who these Tanzanian real estate developers are targeting anyway. They know their target market and yes it may include some politicos but they are not the only ones.

pangupakavu said:
Huelewi ndugu?!they had them,BUT people had money!!kule kuna kitu kinaitwa financing..,as long u could secure that..,then the house was urs.

So if you admit that to be the case in US and Japan how come you don't want real estate developers in Tanzania to sell or rent expensive houses to people who have money? Plus this is not your original argument. If they had government regulations that directly influence home prices (even before BUSH's tenure) then the expensive home prices wouldn't exist. Your argument is obviously false that's why you end up with these inconsitencies.

pangupakavu said:
YES the market controls the price,BUT only when that reflects the economic situation..,in US,JAPAN,CHINA,EUROPE property markets are connected with the stock market,that is why when DOW was kicking a** above 15000 points durig early 2000's everyone went out and buy those properties..,now its hitting rock bottom.those stupidos are out in the street!!

But where were the government regulations then? I see, the government regulations cease to apply when the stock market does well. OK!!! By the way can you prove the statement I highlighted in bold? i.e.

"in US,JAPAN,CHINA,EUROPE property markets are connected with the stock market,"

pangupakavu said:
the us governments regulations were not that strict at that time,and this is mainly due to the administration that was there:BUSH!

BUT they had very clear regulations...,ony relaxed..,and the price they pay now is for everyone to see.

LOL...

pangupakavu said:
just because different states have different prices it doesn't mean that those houses are overpriced!!

Obviously it is if you can get the same house for a lot cheaper elsewhere. But the market sets that price which I don't have problems with. Let people sell their houses for as much as someone is willing to pay for them.

pangupakavu said:
what do u expect an executive working in NY making $10m a year to go live?Manhattan.right..,why couldn't he afford a $1M house?!

So you agree that homes are priced based on market?

pangupakavu said:
i just don't see that person in dar.

I do that's why people buy those expensive homes in Dar.

pangupakavu said:
Plus have you seen those houses?so called luxury apartments in some website some guys just posted here?!one word..,"Pathetic"for their prices..,

they are OK but not luxury..,even sellers knows that.

there are way better apartments in brooklyn,and they go for a much lower price,i tell ya.and its in NY!

But... but.... but..... it's the market. Have you changed your mind already? Some houses that are sold for $500,000 in California for example, may seem pathetic to someone in some other American state but the real estate market in California sets that price. No goverment regulation can correct that. This was your main argument to which you have failed to substantiate nor prove.

The Truth · Dec 29, 2008

pangupakavu said:
Mama Subi said:

Wakuu mimi mawazo yango hi haya:

that is very true of Tanzania,BUT looking at a larger picture.even if all those "side" revenues were tracked,and they happened to be legal.no chance of a civil servant owning a $1m house.huyu mtu alikuwa anafanya biashara TANZANIA jamani,sio WALL STREET,how can u get rich while people surrounding you are poor?!
i would say such a person,if successful and honest he could afford a house at around $100k-$200k.
since revenues za hizo biashara zake does not translate to his wealth.BUT rather the net profits-minus all the running costs of his family.
from my experience,salary za watu wengi TZ zinaisha in the first 2 weeks after that the next two weeks ni hizo side businesses..,be it legal or corruption!

Well said,
But one thing to be noted ni kuwa hizi HOT PROPERTIES being sold in Dar now,hardly fall in that category.most are indians or gov officials who take loans or use their own property to build these new houses within a year or two.and put them on sale as luxury apartments,or expatriates heaven.

correct me if am wrong BUT i would assume properties za UPANGA na masaki peninsula to meet those qualifications.question is,can a property in UPANGA be evaluated and rated at $1.5m especially in current economic conditions?!

i agree with you about the demand and supply thing.BUT that is not about everything.cause if you sell your property at a fishy price..,IRS is right there on your butt!
actually kuna criterias ambazo developers should adhere to have his property fall under a certain price window,they don't tel them u sell this at $10,0000 per square meter.no.they do have clear sets of guidelines especially for developers.
for home owners,US municipals have agencies that do that job every two or three years..,U just don't wake up and say my house is worth $10M!no way!

you couldn't have said it better!

All these are due to disfunctional policies from our governments,central and local...,no one cares.

JUST because you spent $200K building your house it doesn't mean that the house will cost no less than that!!NO WAY..,it's the quality of the house and so many other things..,

for those unfamiliar with how US regulates the market prices,check this link here
How Estimates of Market Value are Determined for Residential Properties

here is a few kicks from what NY city does to put values on properties

"New York State Law requires all properties in each municipality to be assessed at a uniform percentage of market value each year. This means that all properties in each city, town, or village must be assessed at market value or all at the same uniform percentage of market value each year."

"Once the market value of each property is determined, the assessor applies the municipal-wide level of assessment to the market values.In many communities, where assessments are maintained at a level of assessment of 100, a property's assessment is the assessor's estimate of its market value"
"The tax assessment is a tool local governments use to exact a property tax rate on residents. The local government determines your homes worth by reassessing the homes in the area you live in periodically."

and this says that,a seller doesn't have 100% say of how much his/her property is worth!it's not as easy as it sounds.

"If one determines the market value of his or her property and feels that the assessor's estimate of market value (upon which the assessment is based) is too high, then the property owner should contact the assessor's office to learn the procedures for informal assessment review. During the informal review process, the property owner and the assessor can each discuss the property's inventory (or characteristics) and how the market value estimates were determined. If the property owner remains unsatisfied with the assessment, he or she has the right to formal administrative and judicial review of the assessment. The assessor can provide the property owner with information on these processes."

in the end no one will tell you how much asking price you should put.BUT if the appraiser and the assessor summed up things and say its somewhere around $200k it's impossible to sell that house for $500k!!YES IN USA SOMEHOW THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLS THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTIES THROUGH MANY FACTORS!!

Click to expand...

You have misinterpreted your own link or you are trying to mislead the public. Where in the article does it say you have to sell your house for what the assessor says it is worth? Can you highlight that part for me? The last part you have quoted i.e.

"If one determines the market value of his or her property and feels that the assessor's estimate of market value (upon which the assessment is based) is too high, then the property owner should contact the assessor's office to learn the procedures for informal assessment review. During the informal review process, the property owner and the assessor can each discuss the property's inventory (or characteristics) and how the market value estimates were determined. If the property owner remains unsatisfied with the assessment, he or she has the right to formal administrative and judicial review of the assessment. The assessor can provide the property owner with information on these processes."

I would interprete the above as follows:

Say some assessor says your house is worth more than what you believe it is worth or what similar houses in your areas go for. Let's go by your own figures, the assessor says your house is worth $500K but you believe it is only worth $200K. Obviously you would have to pay higher real estate taxes for a $500K house. That's the only reason someone would contest such an assessment. Otherwise if you were trying to sell it to someone willing to buy it, why would you contest your house being evaluated at a higher price? It makes no sense. A house seller is not going to go court to contest that their house is valued too much. Heck, the whole point is to maximize your profits when selling it.

The Truth · Dec 29, 2008

pangupakavu said:
Photo Gallery

Photo Gallery

look at these cheap furniture.ushauri wa bure kwa hawa developers..,

hao ma expatriates wanaowatega na hizo "Luxury apartments" values real wood so much over Fake wood!they should have known better..,
why would they use compressed "makapi ya mbao" why??that's just another gaffe..,in so many gaffes these developers do.
that stuff must have been imported from Asian..,china or thailand i guess.

i don't know if that is the new style in TZ kuweka low quality furniture..,or what.But i didn't expect to see it in an apartment that advertises itself as a Luxury one!
Photo Gallery

why did they put such a pathetic Hood??!!did that cost 50 bucks?
the kitchen is another sad story.what kind of planners do these guys employ?!au wanadesign wenyewe?!

i am no house design expert but i can tell the kitchen is already outdated.no room for expandability at all,where is that room for upgrades?!complete remodeling?!

Hey, I can nitpick on American houses too. I looked online and the house below listed for $500,000 in Los Angeles, America. Whaaaaat??? Like I have stated below the market value is what sets the prices so I don't find anything surprising there.

See the link below

Los Angeles, California Home for Sale From RE/MAX

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 29, 2008

So if you want to sell your house for more than what a private or commercial bank believes it's worth then you have to sell it in a black market? Is this what you are telling me? With all due respect I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Hii ni conclusion uliyofikia wewe..,there can be many conclusions,that could be one of them.
BUT if you are about to sell your house at an unreasonable price(very high than it's estimated price).you are bound to hit the wall.
kwani buyers will simply compare you listing price with other properties on same location with same characteristics.also buyers will compare your price with the one listed on government sources.smart buyers will stay away if assessors price differs by large amount.and with current situation,even not so smart buyers will notice that.

I don't believe such documentations exist that's why you didn't produce them. How you believe or think the process of buying a house in America is not actually the way it is.

i just gave a few links in other posts you can check them.there you can answer many of your questions.

OK, suppose you are right about only few UN officials being able to afford those houses, that leaves the other people I mentioned i.e. private individuals, expats? Forget about school teachers because I don't believe that's who these Tanzanian real estate developers are targeting anyway. They know their target market and yes it may include some politicos but they are not the only ones.

Tunaongelea TANZANIA kaka,not singapore or some fast growing tiger economy countries.can you be specific who can afford a property worth $1.5m in Tanzania?!

So if you admit that to be the case in US and Japan how come you don't want real estate developers in Tanzania to sell or rent expensive houses to people who have money? Plus this is not your original argument. If they had government regulations that directly influence home prices (even before BUSH's tenure) then the expensive home prices wouldn't exist. Your argument is obviously false that's why you end up with these inconsitencies.

Tanzania hao watu wenye hizo pesa hawapo!!wewe unawafikiria kichwani kwako..,mention them please..,am sure kama hawajapata hizo pesa kwa RUSHWA.basi ndio yale yale ya kina EPA na MRAMBA.
Na hizo nyumba wanazosema ni expensive sio expensive kama unavyofikiria wewe..,they have no feel of expensive,inside out.

But where were the government regulations then? I see, the government regulations cease to apply when the stock market does well. OK!!! By the way can you prove the statement I highlighted in bold? i.e.

"in US,JAPAN,CHINA,EUROPE property markets are connected with the stock market,"

you really like proofs!!jeez!!i just inform you,if you have no idea what it means,do some research,
i am not going to say anything about how the morgate crisis started!it's like the national anthem of US now.
BUT for you information,Crisis in the property market pretty much started all this mess the world economy is in right now...,
Then countries like china..absorbed the butterfly effect of what was going on with the US stock market woos..,property markets in cities like Shenzen,Beijing and Shanghai(chinese mega cities) ,started to take the blow..,developers needed liquidity,buyers turned protective of their money,so prices went low,am not talking about 10-20 houses on the market.rather millions of properties,
In shenzen for example some real estate developers were giving new BMW's for every purchase of high end pr0perties..,
same story in Japan..,if you don't get this then you have no idea how property market operates.

LOL...

Obviously it is if you can get the same house for a lot cheaper elsewhere. But the market sets that price which I don't have problems with. Let people sell their houses for as much as someone is willing to pay for them.

So you agree that homes are priced based on market?

Huelewi ndugu?!just because it's based on the market,it does not mean you can simply inflate your property!of cause if you do that,it will only backfire on you..,

I do that's why people buy those expensive homes in Dar.

i never said people don't buy those houses!!i said their prices does not reflect the real value of the properties.

until the government sets ABC's of how to evaluate property markets.then those properties will get inflated to extreme levels

But... but.... but..... it's the market. Have you changed your mind already? Some houses that are sold for $500,000 in California for example, may seem pathetic to someone in some other American state but the real estate market in California sets that price.

A house will cost more in california compare Arkansas.and we will not see Arkansas developers pricing their houses on par with california jsut because they look alike!!

incase u av missed it that is what is going on in Dar now.developers are trying to play price copycat with London,NY,LA!!as if those houses in LA etc share same characteristic as the ones in dar.no way!!

No goverment regulation can correct that. This was your main argument to which you have failed to substantiate nor prove.

The Californian local government has it's own way of monitoring property prices,and there is a very clear system they use!just because you see rather high prices it does not mean that they do not have policies to adhere to!

so other states in US will not price their properties because in california a pathetic house goes for $500k.NO.they have their own local trend revolve around,with their own sets of policies

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 29, 2008

The Truth said:
pangupakavu said:

You have misinterpreted your own link or you are trying to mislead the public. Where in the article does it say you have to sell your house for what the assessor says it is worth? Can you highlight that part for me? The last part you have quoted i.e.

"If one determines the market value of his or her property and feels that the assessor's estimate of market value (upon which the assessment is based) is too high, then the property owner should contact the assessor's office to learn the procedures for informal assessment review. During the informal review process, the property owner and the assessor can each discuss the property's inventory (or characteristics) and how the market value estimates were determined. If the property owner remains unsatisfied with the assessment, he or she has the right to formal administrative and judicial review of the assessment. The assessor can provide the property owner with information on these processes."

I would interprete the above as follows:

Say some assessor says your house is worth more than what you believe it is worth or what similar houses in your areas go for. Let's go by your own figures, the assessor says your house is worth $500K but you believe it is only worth $200K. Obviously you would have to pay higher real estate taxes for a $500K house. That's the only reason someone would contest such an assessment. Otherwise if you were trying to sell it to someone willing to buy it, why would you contest your house being evaluated at a higher price? It makes no sense. A house seller is not going to go court to contest that their house is valued too much. Heck, the whole point is to maximize your profits when selling it.

Click to expand...

u don't get it do you!

if same houses near your area sells for lower prices,no one will come buy your house!!unless it has an oil well underneath it!!
there are many reasons people wouldn't want their houses to be overpriced!
glad umejijibu mwenyewe.
Obviously you would have to pay higher real estate taxes for a $500K house.
sababu ni nyingi mno.

Otherwise if you were trying to sell it to someone willing to buy it, why would you contest your house being evaluated at a higher price? It makes no sense.

Click to expand...

wakati hao assesors wanafanya kazi yao...,that house is not even listed yet..,but rather in the process of being listed.
there are many costs that you will incure in the proccess,paying those guys and many other depends on the value of your home etc!

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 29, 2008

The Truth said:
Hey, I can nitpick on American houses too. I looked online and the house below listed for $500,000 in Los Angeles, America. Whaaaaat??? Like I have stated below the market value is what sets the prices so I don't find anything surprising there.

See the link below

Los Angeles, California Home for Sale From RE/MAX

ingekuwa vizuri ungefanya comparison ya Manhattan "luxury apartments" na hiyo ya kwetu hapo...,hapo ungetoa taswira nzuri ya aina ya quality hawajamaa wetu wa kitanzania should reflect on.

njia nzuri ya ku-compesate the BUBBLE ingekuwa ku-deliver the quality.

si vibaya ma-developer wetu wakiwa-pressures ku-deliver quality.i don't get the intention of u posting that LA condo,anyways.

hiyo $500,000 can hardly buy a permanent parking spot in high end apartment areas in Hongkong.

we don't need to know what $500K can do in other places around the world,BUT rather how much it can do in Tanzania.

it is not fair for buyers to spend so much money to buy low quality houses.

we know prices are overpriced and our toothless government can do nothing about that,BUT until they get their teeth,at least let us expose not so great things about those overpriced apartments.

The Truth · Dec 29, 2008

pangupakavu said:
Hii ni conclusion uliyofikia wewe..,there can be many conclusions,that could be one of them.
BUT if you are about to sell your house at an unreasonable price(very high than it's estimated price).you are bound to hit the wall.
kwani buyers will simply compare you listing price with other properties on same location with same characteristics.also buyers will compare your price with the one listed on government sources.smart buyers will stay away if assessors price differs by large amount.and with current situation,even not so smart buyers will notice that.

Again, how does this prove your point that the government sets or directly influences the real estate prices in America? You have yet to prove this point. What you are describing above is the market forces at play. You can not say for certainty that an overpriced house (a house way above it's estimated value) won't sell. The goverment doesn't place a cap on what a home owner can list his or her property for. The seller may find a buyer, or he or she may not. All that will depend on the market at that time. The question you should ask yourself is how did the average prices in some location get to where they are. Was that a result of government regulations? When you look into carefully that you will it is purely the market forces that inflate or deflate those prices not some government regulations like you claim.

pangupakavu said:
i just gave a few links in other posts you can check them.there you can answer many of your questions.

Your quote exactly:

"i am not about to release documentations that will benefit no one here.JUST know of their existence my friend."

Now you are telling me to look at some other links. OK, I'll go along. I looked at the links you provided and they do not answer my question(s). Stop misleading or confusing the readers. If I am wrong then highlight the passage or quote from the web page you posted that answers my question. I'm waiting...

pangupakavu said:
Tunaongelea TANZANIA kaka,not singapore or some fast growing tiger economy countries.can you be specific who can afford a property worth $1.5m in Tanzania?!

Do you want specific names? That I can't and won't provide. I can tell you that private business people can afford these properties. Expats can afford these properties. Foreign investors can afford these properties.

pangupakavu said:
Tanzania hao watu wenye hizo pesa hawapo!!wewe unawafikiria kichwani kwako..,mention them please..,am sure kama hawajapata hizo pesa kwa RUSHWA.basi ndio yale yale ya kina EPA na MRAMBA.
Na hizo nyumba wanazosema ni expensive sio expensive kama unavyofikiria wewe..,they have no feel of expensive,inside out.

See above. I am not about to mention names here. Perhaps you should show proof that only corrupt politicos can afford those expensive houses in Tanzania. Where is your proof?

pangupakavu said:
you really like proofs!!jeez!!i just inform you,if you have no idea what it means,do some research,
i am not going to say anything about how the morgate crisis started!it's like the national anthem of US now.
BUT for you information,Crisis in the property market pretty much started all this mess the world economy is in right now...,
Then countries like china..absorbed the butterfly effect of what was going on with the US stock market woos..,property markets in cities like Shenzen,Beijing and Shanghai(chinese mega cities) ,started to take the blow..,developers needed liquidity,buyers turned protective of their money,so prices went low,am not talking about 10-20 houses on the market.rather millions of properties,
In shenzen for example some real estate developers were giving new BMW's for every purchase of high end pr0perties..,
same story in Japan..,if you don't get this then you have no idea how property market operates.

But here is your original quote:

"YES the market controls the price,BUT only when that reflects the economic situation..,in US,JAPAN,CHINA,EUROPE property markets are connected with the stock market,that is why when DOW was kicking a** above 15000 points durig early 2000's everyone went out and buy those properties..,now its hitting rock bottom.those stupidos are out in the street!!"

Have you spot the inconsistencies in your two posts? In the latest post your implying causation in one direction i.e. the real estate market caused the stock market crisis but in your original it appears you are implying the exact opposite. It is or was the stock market that determined the real estate prices at least that's how I read it. Your two posts are incongruent with one another.

pangupakavu said:
Huelewi ndugu?!just because it's based on the market,it does not mean you can simply inflate your property!of cause if you do that,it will only backfire on you..,

It will backfire how? Overpricing your house when trying to sell it is not against the law, it is not against any government regulations. On top of all that you can not tell me with certainty that an overpriced house won't sell in America. So what type of backfire are you talking about?

pangupakavu said:
i never said people don't buy those houses!!i said their prices does not reflect the real value of the properties.

until the government sets ABC's of how to evaluate property markets.then those properties will get inflated to extreme levels

Not true. The government evaluations will not change the real estate pricing trends in Tanzania nor do they make any difference in America.

pangupakavu said:
A house will cost more in california compare Arkansas.and we will not see Arkansas developers pricing their houses on par with california jsut because they look alike!!

Precisely. The California's real estate market is different from Arkansas' real estate market. Different markets different prices. Nothing to do with government regulations that you are advocating for Tanzania.

pangupakavu said:
incase u av missed it that is what is going on in Dar now.developers are trying to play price copycat with London,NY,LA!!as if those houses in LA etc share same characteristic as the ones in dar.no way!!

Well if they can sell those houses in Dar at London, NY, LA prices more power to them. If nobody was buying their houses at such high prices obviously they wouldn't be selling them at those high prices.

pangupakavu said:
The Californian local government has it's own way of monitoring property prices,and there is a very clear system they use!just because you see rather high prices it does not mean that they do not have policies to adhere to!

so other states in US will not price their properties because in california a pathetic house goes for $500k.NO.they have their own local trend revolve around,with their own sets of policies

LOL...then perhaps Tanzanian local trends dictate those expensive prices you are complaining about?

The Truth · Dec 29, 2008

pangupakavu said:
The Truth said:

u don't get it do you!

if same houses near your area sells for lower prices,no one will come buy your house!!unless it has an oil well underneath it!!
there are many reasons people wouldn't want their houses to be overpriced!
glad umejijibu mwenyewe.
Obviously you would have to pay higher real estate taxes for a $500K house.
sababu ni nyingi mno.

wakati hao assesors wanafanya kazi yao...,that house is not even listed yet..,but rather in the process of being listed.
there are many costs that you will incure in the proccess,paying those guys and many other depends on the value of your home etc!

Click to expand...

So how is what you are describing relate to government regulations? Did the government stop the seller from listing his or her house for $500K? The fact that the real estate market may or may not force the seller to lower the asking price has nothing to do with any government regulation. This is what you are not getting.

The Truth · Dec 29, 2008

pangupakavu said:
ingekuwa vizuri ungefanya comparison ya Manhattan "luxury apartments" na hiyo ya kwetu hapo...,hapo ungetoa taswira nzuri ya aina ya quality hawajamaa wetu wa kitanzania should reflect on.

njia nzuri ya ku-compesate the BUBBLE ingekuwa ku-deliver the quality.

si vibaya ma-developer wetu wakiwa-pressures ku-deliver quality.i don't get the intention of u posting that LA condo,anyways.

hiyo $500,000 can hardly buy a permanent parking spot in high end apartment areas in Hongkong.

we don't need to know what $500K can do in other places around the world,BUT rather how much it can do in Tanzania.

it is not fair for buyers to spend so much money to buy low quality houses.

we know prices are overpriced and our toothless government can do nothing about that,BUT until they get their teeth,at least let us expose not so great things about those overpriced apartments.

My point in posting that photo is to demonstrate you can nitpick the house in Los Angeles as not being worth $500,000 but then again if the local market in Los Angeles allows for such pricing just like the market in Dar allows for those expensive homes to be sold, then that's how it will be.

The Truth · Dec 29, 2008

Another point I have to add is this, unless you assume Manhattan home prices have always been high, you have to ask yourself how did they get to the current prices? The assessors go by prices of surrounding homes so some home(s) must have been overpriced (and sold) for prices to go from where they were say in the 1960s to the current home prices. In other words for the trend to continue upwards someone must have sold their homes at a higher price to bring up the home values in Manhattan, No? Otherwise why would housing trends rise over time? If you concede to this point, then you are in effect obliterate your own point that somehow government regulations through real estate assessments influence the real estate pricing. When you think clearly such argument makes no sense and there is simply no proof for it.

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 29, 2008

Again, how does this prove your point that the government sets or directly influences the real estate prices in America? You have yet to prove this point. What you are describing above is the market forces at play. You can not say for certainty that an overpriced house (a house way above it's estimated value) won't sell. The goverment doesn't place a cap on what a home owner can list his or her property for. The seller may find a buyer, or he or she may not. All that will depend on the market at that time. The question you should ask yourself is how did the average prices in some location get to where they are. Was that a result of government regulations? When you look into carefully that you will it is purely the market forces that inflate or deflate those prices not some government regulations like you claim.

ndugu kama bado unafikiria inflated house will sell under current economy situation,u r well not in touch with the reality.i can't say no more.

Your quote exactly:

"i am not about to release documentations that will benefit no one here.JUST know of their existence my friend."

Now you are telling me to look at some other links. OK, I'll go along. I looked at the links you provided and they do not answer my question(s). Stop misleading or confusing the readers. If I am wrong then highlight the passage or quote from the web page you posted that answers my question. I'm waiting...

you were looking for documented proof of how the governments of US,Japan,China influenced property markets..,i didn't provide those.i said i wouldn't.tafuta mwenyewe.

i just gave u a single link that would lead you to an understanding of the whole thing.it seems it wont be easy for you to just get it!

Do you want specific names? That I can't and won't provide. I can tell you that private business people can afford these properties. Expats can afford these properties. Foreign investors can afford these properties.

don't mind,i wont waste 3 more pages to on that!

HAO EXPATRIETS may afford those properties BUT they have got their countries to attend to,they won't waste $1.5M upanga!!that is impossible.labda hao wahindi kama wana-qualify hapo..,

Lakini kwa expatriate yeyote yule ni ku -rent.while saving money for retirement..,they worry about that to as much as we do.

See above. I am not about to mention names here. Perhaps you should show proof that only corrupt politicos can afford those expensive houses in Tanzania. Where is your proof?

ebwana some archives za jambo forums.ukimaliza nenda Library pekua magazeti yoote.there you have your proof.recently kuna kesi ya mramba na wenzake..,tazama thamani za nyumba wanazomiliki..,
double check with chenge kuita a million vijisenti,kama unataka ushahidi zaidi pole ndugu.

It will backfire how? Overpricing your house when trying to sell it is not against the law, it is not against any government regulations. On top of all that you can not tell me with certainty that an overpriced house won't sell in America. So what type of backfire are you talking about?

kwa sasa hivi kuna nyumba zaidi ya Milioni kadhaa haziuziki marekani,same as china.sasa kama hukubali overpricing will cause your house to not sell that is your unique problem

Not true. The government evaluations will not change the real estate pricing trends in Tanzania nor do they make any difference in America.

Hata Greenspan alikubali kukosea,wewe uko sure sana!!mmh..,
anyways,they will definitely have an impact.positive or negative..,

Precisely. The California's real estate market is different from Arkansas' real estate market. Different markets different prices. Nothing to do with government regulations that you are advocating for Tanzania.

laws na policies za majimbo hayo mawili ni tofauti,inabidi ujue hilo!!
sababu ya arkansas kuwa na lower real estate prices..,shows how much tanzania should be expected to have even lower prices!!

by the way i can never compare Dar prices with any city in the US.it's just pathetic.i once posted a very simple evaluation of most expensive Property market trends..,as u could see..,african cities that could even be mentions were cairo,cape town and the like...,notice something?!they are in no same level as dar..,kama hukubali na hilo,sorry

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 29, 2008

The Truth said:
Another point I have to add is this, unless you assume Manhattan home prices have always been high, you have to ask yourself how did they get to the current prices? The assessors go by prices of surrounding homes so some home(s) must have been overpriced (and sold) for prices to go from where they were say in the 1960s to the current home prices. In other words for the trend to continue upwards someone must have sold their homes at a higher price to bring up the home values in Manhattan, No? Otherwise why would housing trends rise over time? If you concede to this point, then you are in effect obliterate your own point that somehow government regulations through real estate assessments influence the real estate pricing. When you think clearly such argument makes no sense and there is simply no proof for it.

prices of homes tend to rice when there is an economic boom,and at very high percentages it goes at 50% growth annually.

Warning signals about dar boom is that:-the economy is at worst shape,our curreency is shaky,unemployment is very high,political stability is in peril..,not to mention our GDP is hardly a thousand usd!!
How can this be possible??hivi ndugu huoni tatizo hapo?!

there is nothing wrong with having higher prices of houses if the economy reflects that!

PanguPakavu Amy · Dec 29, 2008

The Truth said:
My point in posting that photo is to demonstrate you can nitpick the house in Los Angeles as not being worth $500,000 but then again if the local market in Los Angeles allows for such pricing just like the market in Dar allows for those expensive homes to be sold, then that's how it will be.

i don't know the exact location of that LA property,BUT $500k in some area codes in LA can not even get you a parking space.

Wanauza Land kule,sie tunakopa land kutoka serikalini kujengea nyumba zetu!!ever heard of title deed!!

nazijua nyumba nilizoziona nikaweka hapa,nafahamu locatioin zao,when i said they are not worth that much,i did not say if they were in Paris,they would still not be worth what they are...,LOCATION,u said that before..,and so far code number 255 hatujafikia huko..,tutafika one day..,ila sio kwa mwendo huo.

kwa kifupi ni kuwa land iliyopo LA can go for a very high price...,

NIMECHOKA KUKUJIBU,What is the point of all this?!

Property Market in DAR...

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