nakumbuka tukiwa high school tuli-debate hii ishu sana na mwalimu wangu wa physics. Yeye ni aethiest. Mimi kusema kweli sioni umuhimu wowote wa hii kitu. Kwanza inaweka imani ya mtu katika physical things badala ya Yesu mwenyewe. Kama unasubiri kuiona hii shraud ndo uamini Yesu ni Mungu...basi umeumia. Kanisa linapovipa hivi vitu umuhimu, nahisi linapoteza muelekeo.
mh, Kanisa imeipa hii kitu kipaumbele sana. Kwanza imekataza wana sayansi kuifanyia kazi kwa kusudi la kujua ukweli wake. Soma historia yake, utaelewa.
Mtoto, waandika "mh, Kanisa imeipa hii kitu kipaumbele sana. Kwanza imekataza wana sayansi kuifanyia kazi kwa kusudi la kujua ukweli wake. Soma historia yake, utaelewa." Sasa mbona unajichanganya na kunichanganya mimi.
Maelezo yako hapo juu na haya niliyoyanukuru hayaweki wazi msimamo wako wewe mwenyewe.
Kwa upande wangu naona uchunguzi ufanywe tu. ajaibu litalopatikana halitamlazimisha yeyote yule kuamini kuwa Yesu ni/si Mungu. Muumini siku zote ataamini vile vile aaminivyo.
Imani yako isiyumbishwe na wanasayansi. Lakini kama ukweli umekuingia usisite kubadili imani yako, kwani wewe si wa kwanza na wala hutakuwa wa mwisho kubadili imani.
samahani mh. Sijaona ni sehemu gani katika posts zangu nilipoji-contradict! fafanua zaidi.
Huyo aliyeshindwa kuona kipaumbele iliyopewa na kanisa, sina msaada zaidi. Iko hapo kwenye post ya Ab-Titchaz, na anaweza kusoma zaidi.
Naamini kuwa kanisa kwa wakati mwingine linashindwa kuweka mwelekeo wake sawa sawa. Linajaribu kushinda kwa kucheza rafu. Lakini cha muhimu ni kuweka haya mambo wazi.
Na mimi sina cha kukusaidia maana hata hujui neno kipaumbele lina maana gani. Hicho kipande cha Shroud kinachohifadhiwa wala hakitumiki kwenye ibada yeyote na inashangaza kusema eti kanisa linakipa kipaumbele! Kipaumbele kipi..hujajibu unaishia kuweweseka.
Halafu unadai KANISA linashindwa kuweka mwelekeo, nadhani wewe ndio huna muelekeo na uelewa wako ni duni mno. Hao wanaoikumbatia dhana kuwa Shroud ni halisi ni baadhi ya wakristu wanaopenda kuamini hivyo na ni ukosefu wa busara kulisingizia KANISA zima kwa matendo ya watu hao. Hii ndio kawaida ya maadui wa kanisa katoliki, kosa likifanywa na mtu mmoja linabebeshwa kanisa zima! Huku ni kuishiwa hoja na kuleta vioja.
Ikumbukwe kuwa ile item ya kihistoria, na kanisa pia linao wataalamu wake, na kama wanaihifadhi shroud wanazo sababu za msingi za kufanya hivyo. Hata hivyo wanayo total command maana ipo chini ya himaya yao.
Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin
The Turin Shroud is shown in this August 1978 file photo in negative version
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091005/sc_nm/us_italy_shroud
BBC said:Shroud mystery 'refuses to go away'
By Rageh Omaar
The Shroud of Turin, BBC Two
The Shroud Center of Colorado depicts a burial configuration
There are very few Christian relics as important and as controversial as the Shroud of Turin.
This linen cloth, measuring about 4.4m by 1.1m (14.4x3.6 feet) holds the concealed image of a man bearing all the signs of crucifixion.
Scientific tests have proved that there are blood stains around the marks consistent with a crown of thorns and a puncture from a lance to the side.
In a new documentary, we have been given intimate access that no other broadcaster has had before.
Until the 1980s, millions of Christians around the world believed the Shroud to be the burial cloth of Christ.
Put simply, it meant that for millions of people the Shroud was, in effect, a Polaroid of Jesus' death - a snapshot of the defining moment in Christianity. It put the Shroud in a league of its own in the realm of the most important Christian relics.
But in 1989, the significance of the Shroud seemed to evaporate after a radiocarbon dating test pronounced a stunning verdict - the Shroud of Turin was indisputably a medieval fake.
Long search
With that judgement the extraordinary story of the Shroud of Turin fell out of the public imagination.
After all, how could any other kind of evidence about the shroud compare to the verdict of science?
Rageh Omaar talks to scientists who have long studied the Shroud
But the amazing story of the Shroud of Turin has simply refused to fade into obscurity and die, for the simple reason that a conflict of evidence has emerged which is about to re-ignite the debate around this compelling religious artefact.
If it is a medieval forgery, then how was this image made? So far, no one has been able to explain it. And from this simple question tumble a multitude of other questions.
My quest took me to three continents, from the US, to Italy, to Jerusalem and the radiocarbon dating laboratory in Oxford, which was part of the original test 20 years ago.
In the film I interview John Jackson who led a major investigation on the shroud in 1978 and has made the study of the Shroud his life's work.
Mr Jackson, a lecturer in physics and cosmology, introduced me to a wealth of fresh historical and forensic evidence that linked the Shroud of Turin to two earlier Shrouds of Christ.
The first was in Constantinople and mysteriously disappeared in the sack of the city in the Fourth Crusade in 1204. The second is, of course, the Shroud referred to in the Gospels.
Looking for 'coherence'
The irresistible force of science seems to have hit an immovable object. The mysterious image of a crucified man has refused to lie down and die.
The new evidence raises a question mark over that carbon-14 verdict. Should the margin of error have been wider? Could the image on the Shroud have been forged earlier in time?
Mr Jackson has developed a new hypothesis that could explain how a genuinely ancient piece of linen could produce a distorted younger date. I took this to Professor Christopher Ramsey, director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit.
The real artefact is kept at the Cathedral of Turin
He agreed to collaborate with Mr Jackson in testing a series of linen samples that could determine if the case for the Shroud's authenticity could be re-opened.
"With the radiocarbon measurements and with all of the other evidence which we have about the Shroud, there does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence," Professor Ramsey tells the BBC.
"And for that reason I think that everyone who has worked in this area, radiocarbon scientists and all of the other experts, need to have a critical look at the evidence that they've come up with in order for us to try to work out some kind of a coherent story that fits and tells us the truth of the history of this intriguing cloth."
hahaha. sikumbuki kukuomba msaada!
Huyo aliyeshindwa kuona kipaumbele iliyopewa na kanisa, sina msaada zaidi.
Na kipaumbele haina maana ya kutumika kwenye ibada.
It seems wewe ndo mwenye narrow interpretation ya neno kipaumbele. Kukipa kitu kipaumbele can mean kukitunza kwa umakini - eg: kunyima access kwa wanasayansi.
Again, unaonyesha fikra duni kwa ku-imply kanisa = wakristo wote.
Sijatumia neno wakristo kwa sababu muhimu. Nilitaka ku-separate hivi viwili. Again, fikra duni zako zina-equate kanisa to ukristo. And note: hii ni kanisa with a small k. Hivyo wewe ndo umeamka na kudhani nina criticise Catholism. Pole sana. Sina msaada zaidi kwa kuwa na fikra duni!
Just a side note in relation to equating the actions of some to the church: Leo Pope akisema wakatoliki wasitumie rozari, je mtakubali?
Watu wengine bana ..kujitiatia tu..Sasa na wewe hapo juu(reddish) nani alikuomba msaada? Mwe!
Na sijasema hivyo hiyo poor logic kutoka kwako kama nilivyotegema.
Labda jaribu kupunguza pumba kwa kusoma hiyo shroud ilifikaje mikononi mwa wakatoliki wa huko Torino. Na fuatilia kidogo kujua carbon dating iliofanyika mwaka 1988 samples za kupelekwa maabara zilipatikanaje bila ya ruhusa ya kanisa katoliki (nadhani ujinga sio kosa kosa ni upumbavu). Pia jaribu kutafuta sababu za wao kuzuia further sampling kutoka kwa hiyo shroud. Nachelea kupigizana kelele na mtu asiye na insight na ishu zaidi ya kuwa na wahka na munkari wa kudandia treni la India kwa mbele.
SIjui hii umeipata wapi. Nadhani una matatizo ya hysteria, mwezi mchanga, 'kuona vitu' au mvurugiko wa mawazo au vyote kwa pamoja.
Sina cha kukomenti hapa, maana sioni la maana.
Unfortunately, bado unaweweseka. Mimi ni mtu mmoja hivyo unapouliza swali uliza ktk umoja.
hahaha
naona umejitahidi. Lakini bado, Jaribu tena...
Mtoto, waandika "mh, Kanisa imeipa hii kitu kipaumbele sana. Kwanza imekataza wana sayansi kuifanyia kazi kwa kusudi la kujua ukweli wake. Soma historia yake, utaelewa." Sasa mbona unajichanganya na kunichanganya mimi.
Maelezo yako hapo juu na haya niliyoyanukuru hayaweki wazi msimamo wako wewe mwenyewe.
Kwa upande wangu naona uchunguzi ufanywe tu. ajaibu litalopatikana halitamlazimisha yeyote yule kuamini kuwa Yesu ni/si Mungu. Muumini siku zote ataamini vile vile aaminivyo.
Imani yako isiyumbishwe na wanasayansi. Lakini kama ukweli umekuingia usisite kubadili imani yako, kwani wewe si wa kwanza na wala hutakuwa wa mwisho kubadili imani.
Nadhani ujumbe umekufikia tayari popote ulipo, hii dozi kama utameza sasa hivi au baadae hiyo ni juu yako!
bado unaendelea kujihangaisha! Duh. Nakupa pole. Soma threads vizuri. nadhani utaelewa...
Jaribu tena ehh....Usilie
Sina haja ya kusoma thread ili kuelewa habari ya hii Shroud, naijua kitambo sana hii ishu. Labda wewe kama ndio unaioana leo. Na ndio maana nipo hapa kurekebisha upotofu wa watu kama wewe.
bado unaendelea tu...duh! Kweli ukweli unauma. Na matusi juu...hahahaha! Endelea tu kupigana na keyboard. Actions za watu zinaonyesha nani ni mpumbavu!! They say action speak louder than words. Nadhani kama una akili yeyote utaweza ku-add up na kujua maana yangu...endelea kuumiza vidole...lol