Agriculture: Kenya vs Tanzania

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

FDI is not everything.
In fact, the vast majority of new businesses in a country are by locals.
I have not heard any new foreign company get allocated plantation land in Kenya for a long time. Yet production of some items keeps going up.

You have a skewed understanding of FDI..when sasini reavipingo finlays et al sells shares at NSE to foreigners that is FDI.
Foreign money in agriculture is so rampant that even brookside dairy is 60% owned by french abraaj group.
That kind of colonial money from white settlers is virtualy non existent in Tz agriculture. Now, should Tz sell their land for FDI and suffer the kind of land injustices experienced in kenya? Should they wait and build their own capital base and do the farming themselves?
The Question is about money vs Soverignity, you cannot fault them for chozing the latter, you will never hear stories like the ones we hear about delmonte management feeding trespassers to german shephard Dogs or Delamare sons shotting maasai hearders. Money is not everything, sometimes you choze a poor choice but retain your dignity

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Precisely. This FDI is lame excuse - actually an attempt to attribute kenya agri sucess to whites - and that subliminal message from the usual kenyan-hater.

Where do you expect a poor country like Tz to get capital from and invest in big agriculture?
If big agriculture companies success in kenya was due to kenyan's own ingenuity/ hardwork then we would not have failed projects like galana kulalu, cotton (raymonds) sugar cane mills, KMC - livestock.
Most successful agric processing companies in kenya have a foreign hand, whether its BAT, Brookside, EABL etc..Kenyans left on their own are lazy and know only how to steal

 

[kennedy0000]

You have a skewed understanding of FDI..when sasini reavipingo finlays et al sells shares at NSE to foreigners that is FDI.
Foreign money in agriculture is so rampant that even brookside dairy is 60% owned by french abraaj group.
That kind of colonial money from white settlers is virtualy non existent in Tz agriculture. Now, should Tz sell their land for FDI and suffer the kind of land injustices experienced in kenya? Should they wait and build their own capital base and do the farming themselves?
The Question is about money vs Soverignity, you cannot fault them for chozing the latter, you will never hear stories like the ones we hear about delmonte management feeding trespassers to german shephard Dogs or Delamare sons shotting maasai hearders. Money is not everything, sometimes you choze a poor choice but retain your dignity

The richest countries left agriculture for large scale production long time ago. That's the only way they achieve economies of scale to mechanize, process and market.
Everyone owning a small piece of land to farm is backward and unproductive.

And there is no dignity in poverty.

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

The richest countries left agriculture for large scale production long time ago. That's the only way they achieve economies of scale to mechanize, process and market.
Everyone owning a small piece of land to farm is backward and unproductive.

And there is no dignity in poverty.

Agreed! and to add to that, large scale farming and mechanisation requires capital. Tz has no capital flowing their side like kenya..They can only do subsitence farming of low value food crops..which they do very well indeed
But FDI flowing to agric is not always a good thing especially with land issues that boil over as is the case of squatters in kenya..
What Tz can do is to encourage their farmers to form coops,GOT should guarantee their loans from foreign banks, and employ agric experts from abroad to run the coops. That way,they can avoid explosive land issues and still grow their commercial agriculture sector.
You shouldnt sell your land to a foreigner, just ask for foreign loans and invest in farming yourself. The route that kenya has taken is profitable in the short term but creates tensions that cannot allow an economy to grow consistently, there will never be peace in kenya untill historical land injustice is resolved

 

[Stano]

Now you're coming out in your true colors. Now let me school you. Pick any sector and we will show there are no foreign companies dominating anything.

Arguably Kenya has the most successfully small-holder farming model in Africa and the world.

Let starts with TEA.

Africans were not allowed to plant tea until 1963. For most 1960s Kenya small-holders share of tea was like 1-2% with plantation tea owned by large co-orp producing the bulk of tea - but over the last few years - kenya small-holder farming working under KTDA - have grown the industry to a position where now small-holders are generating more than 70% of kenya tea and plantation less than 30%.

Kenya Tea Production Figures - East African Tea Trade Association

1963 - Kenya large tea plantation were producing 17M kilos from 18K acre - while smallholder were producing 300K kilos in mere 3,500 HA. Large tea plantation accounted for 98.4% and small holder 1.6%.

2015 - Large tea plantation 161M (risen about 10 tenfold from 1963) from 160K acres(from 17K).

Now look at smallholders-by 2015- acreage rose from 3,500K to 135,00K - That is 40times! Their production rose 237M kilos -from 300k - 750 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - and they produce way better quality of tea.

The small-holders success has seen kenya share of black tea rise tremendously - and now kenya host world largest tea auction in Mombasa that set the global price of tea.

That tea sector has lifted thousands of Kenyan out poverty, improved rural areas, now account for 20% of all exports by value & volume and is key forex generator.

KTDA now generates revenues of nearly 1B dollars - support about 500K farmers - with more than 70 factories processing tea - and a lot more value addition all the way to Mombasa.

Where is Tanzania...who probably began at same level with Kenya...nearly zero small-holder farming - and still producing less than 10% of kenya production - almost exclusively from large plantations.

We can go next on Coffee. Dairy. Horticulture. Sugarcane. And even maize. Kenya for large part has proven small-holder farming can be profitable

The strength of Kenya small-holder farming is it's Africa BEST cooperative movement and 7th largest co-op movement in the world.

It's not stupid UJAMAA VIGILIAZATION that induces laziness. It's the ability of small-holder farms to work together to make what many though was UNECONOMICAL (small holder farming) into incredible machine.

Where do you expect a poor country like Tz to get capital from and invest in big agriculture?
If big agriculture companies success in kenya was due to kenyan's own ingenuity/ hardwork then we would not have failed projects like galana kulalu, cotton (raymonds) sugar cane mills, KMC - livestock.
Most successful agric processing companies in kenya have a foreign hand, whether its BAT, Brookside, EABL etc..Kenyans left on their own are lazy and know only how to steal

 

[Kunta kinte1776]

I said it here how primitive and backward CCM is,same case with other independent parties in africa,so just because foreign investment is coming from whites we should avoid it and condemn thousands to poverty,this kind of retrogressive thinking is what turned zimbabwe from africa breadbascket to the begging bowl of africa,land is and will always be a factor of production whether utilised by natives or foreigners,foreigners just happen to have capital,expertise and access to oversee markets,besides,this foreign companies employ locals,pay taxes etc etc...running a country with the bush mentality will just condemn vast majority to poverty..like i said CCM is a hindrance to tanzania progress with primitive policies since 60s

 

[Kunta kinte1776]

I said it here how primitive and backward CCM is,same case with other independent parties in africa,so just because foreign investment is coming from whites we should avoid it and condemn thousands to poverty,this kind of retrogressive thinking is what turned zimbabwe from africa breadbascket to the begging bowl of africa,land is and will always be a factor of production whether utilised by natives or foreigners,foreigners just happen to have capital,expertise and access to oversee markets,besides,this foreign companies employ locals,pay taxes etc etc...running a country with the bush mentality will just condemn vast majority to poverty..like i said CCM is a hindrance to tanzania progress with primitive policies since 60s

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Now you're coming out in your true colors. Now let me school you. Pick any sector and we will show there are no foreign companies dominating anything.

Arguably Kenya has the most successfully small-holder farming model in Africa and the world.

Let starts with TEA.

Africans were not allowed to plant tea until 1963. For most 1960s Kenya small-holders share of tea was like 1-2% with plantation tea owned by large co-orp producing the bulk of tea - but over the last few years - kenya small-holder farming working under KTDA - have grown the industry to a position where now small-holders are generating more than 70% of kenya tea and plantation less than 30%.

The small-holders success has seen kenya share of black tea rise tremendously - and now kenya host world largest tea auction in Mombasa that set the global price of tea.

That tea sector has lifted thousands of Kenyan out poverty, improved rural areas, now account for 20% of all exports by value & volume and is key forex generator.

KTDA now generates revenues of nearly 1B dollars - support about 500K farmers - with more than 70 factories processing tea - and a lot more value addition all the way to Mombasa.

Where is Tanzania...who probably began at same level with Kenya...nearly zero small-holder farming - and still producing less than 10% of kenya production - almost exclusively from large plantations.

We can go next on Coffee. Dairy. Horticulture. Sugarcane. And even maize. Kenya for large part has proven small-holder farming can be profitable

The strength of Kenya small-holder farming is it's Africa BEST cooperative movement and 7th largest co-op movement in the world.

It's not stupid UJAMAA VIGILIAZATION that induces laziness. It's the ability of small-holder farms to work together to make what many though was UNECONOMICAL (small holder farming) into incredible machine.

You want to go round in circles when I have already said that tea farming is the only subsistence farming still profitable in kenya. Small scale coffee farmers are a dying breed as real estate takes over. Horticulture is also profitable because of coops..That is what is missing in Tz.
Economies of scale favour large scale farming so even for kenyan tea farmers its nothing to celebrate as their earnings are gobled by expenses..
So again, for large scale farming to take root in Tz like in kenya, they need FDI..but should they sell their land to foreigners and suffer the land problems we have in kenya? Or can they avoid selling and instead form coops, have the GoT guaratee their loans from Foreign banks?
But again does Tz have the human capital to manage large agric companies? Should they import foreign expertise?
Those are the questions that Tz needs to answer but they have zero to learn from kenya's model, zero

 

[Stano]

Again you're just proving to be very obtuse with little effort.

It's not only in tea - but dairy, coffee, horticulture - name it - that kenya has proven small-holding farming can and does work.Even Sugar-cane - Kenya for sometime before mismanagement the likes of Mumias showed it can be done in small holder farmers.

Obviously some sectors have suffered with mismanagement and global risks but overally kenya has shown you don't need foreign investors.

And neither does TZ need foreign investors to put it's farmers into productive high-value cash crops. Farmers need to simply organize themselves in co-operative movements - and you don't need human capital to do that - and those co-operative movement or gov agencies can slowly build the value-chain.

Otherwise what will happen is TZ farmers will continue to produce low-value cheap food that cannot meet their nutrient requirement and cannot make them money.

Uganda's museveni is trying to do this by moving farmers from growing "useless" crops like sorghum. millet, sweet potatos, cassavas - into cash crops. We will never ran out of maize or beans or millet - there are countries with large farms like Brazils or US that produces tonnes of those for cheap.

Kenya farmers in next few years will abandon maize, wheat and sugar-cane - for highly value crops. And TZ will be happy to feed Kenya with those useless crops.

The economies of scales in large farms can be replicated by farmers consolidating their activities through cooperatives movement.

You want to go round in circles when I have already said that tea farming is the only subsistence farming still profitable in kenya. Small scale coffee farmers are a dying breed as real estate takes over. Horticulture is also profitable because of coops..That is what is missing in Tz.
Economies of scale favour large scale farming so even for kenyan tea farmers its nothing to celebrate as their earnings are gobled by expenses..
So again, for large scale farming to take root in Tz like in kenya, they need FDI..but should they sell their land to foreigners and suffer the land problems we have in kenya? Or can they avoid selling and instead form coops, have the GoT guaratee their loans from Foreign banks?
But again does Tz have the human capital to manage large agric companies? Should they import foreign expertise?
Those are the questions that Tz needs to answer but they have zero to learn from kenya's model, zero

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Again you're just proving to be very obtuse with little effort.

It's not only in tea - but dairy, sugarcane, coffee, horticulture - name it - that kenya has proven small-holding farming can and does work.

Obviously some sectors have suffered with mismanagement and global risks but overally kenya has shown you don't need foreign investors.

And neither does TZ need foreign investors to put it's farmers into productive high-value cash crops. Farmers need to simply organize themselves in co-operative movements - and you don't need human capital to do that - and those co-operative movement or gov agencies can slowly build the value-chain.

Otherwise what will happen is TZ farmers will continue to produce low-value cheap food that cannot meet their nutrient requirement and cannot make them money.

Uganda's museveni is trying to do this by moving farmers from growing "useless" crops like sorghum. millet, sweet potatos, cassavas - into cash crops. We will never ran out of maize or beans or millet - there are countries with large farms like Brazils or US that produces tonnes of those for cheap.

Kenya farmers in next few years will abandon maize, wheat and sugar-cane - for highly value crops. And TZ will be happy to feed Kenya with those useless crops.

Even Sugar-cane - Kenya for sometime before mismanagement the likes of Mumias showed it can be done in small holder farmers.

The economies of scales in large farms can be replicated by farmers consolidating their activities through cooperatives movement.

The problem with you is that you believe am defending Tz..When clearly I have pointed out their problems especialy to do with coops and lack of FDI to create large economicaly visble agric businesses.
You point out:
Sugarcane -Dead
Milk- Abraaj (france) owns 60% of Brookside that contols 80% of all dairy farming
Maize - Dead
Coffee- Small scale is dead
Horticilture - Profitable coz of coops
The point is despite Tz having its own problems in commercial agriculture, it has nothing to learn from kenya's model..It can learn from india, china south america but not kenya where land tensions become a campaign issue every 5 years robbing the economy ksh 1trn every election year due to historical injustices

 

[Kunta kinte1776]

Mkikuyu Akili-Timamu stop exaggerating the land issue,historical land injustices are rampant in coast where little or no commercial farming takes place.

 

[Stano]

Nothing is actually is "dead" - what happened is farmers moved from unprofitable business - to new ones - coffee is giving way to dairy, avacados, nuts - and horticulture. Maize & Sugar have suffered because of gov protection - and I think gov has basically given up on them.

Dairy - when did it become Brookside? There are many succesfully kenya farmer cooperative run daires - Githunguri for once with Fresha, Mt Kenya from Meru, lot more from Nyeri & Nyandarua. KCC is also very strong. There are also many other small players Kenyatta haven't bought.

Brookside I thought sold about 40% to Danone & 10% to Arbaaj - and that eventually was restructured so what French Congolomerate Danone bought was business outside Kenya - including Brookside Tanzania so Magufuli doesn't get overly jealous like you

Finally I am not sure where you get idea that we are trying to force TZ to learn from us. They can remain with their sweet potatos and cassava - with their physical and mental stunting - and their poverty.

Uganda have been keen students of kenya and they are succeeding - their dairy sector is definitely starting to kick a.rse..

The problem with you is that you believe am defending Tz..When clearly I have pointed out their problems especialy to do with coops and lack of FDI to create large economicaly visble agric businesses.
You point out:
Sugarcane -Dead
Milk- Abraaj (france) owns 60% of Brookside that contols 80% of all dairy farming
Maize - Dead
Coffee- Small scale is dead
Horticilture - Profitable coz of coops
The point is despite Tz having its own problems in commercial agriculture, it has nothing to learn from kenya's model..It can learn from india, china south america but not kenya where land tensions become a campaign issue every 5 years robbing the economy ksh 1trn every election year due to historical injustices

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Nothing is actually is "dead" - what happened is farmers moved from unprofitable business - to new ones - coffee is giving way to dairy, avacados, nuts - and horticulture. Maize & Sugar have suffered because of gov protection - and I think gov has basically given up on them.

Dairy - when did it become Brookside? There are many succesfully kenya farmer cooperative run daires - Githunguri for once with Fresha, Mt Kenya from Meru, lot more from Nyeri & Nyandarua. KCC is also very strong. There are also many other small players Kenyatta haven't bought.

Brookside I thought sold about 40% to Danone & 10% to Arbaaj - and that eventually was restructured so what French Congolomerate Danone bought was business outside Kenya - including Brookside Tanzania so Magufuli doesn't get overly jealous like you

Finally I am not sure where you get idea that we are trying to force TZ to learn from us. They can remain with their sweet potatos and cassava - with their physical and mental stunting - and their poverty.

Uganda have been keen students of kenya and they are succeeding - their dairy sector is definitely starting to kick a.rse..

See, am not hear to blow the trumpet for Tz commerical farming..No, am pointing out the problems, giving suggestions and cautions on land issues that may arise from private profiteers getting huge chunks of land.
You on the otherhand, you want to blow the trumpet of how succesful farmers are in kenya, how they are making money etc while the situation on the ground is very different..
And to make matters worse, you bismirch maize farmers by telling them to plant avocados while mexico(developed country) has farmers who are making money by growing maize.
Farmers in brazil (developed) plant sugarcane and make handsome profits too while you suggest kenya is too rich to engage itself in dirty food crops like sugarcane..
Boss you have mental problems

 

[Stano]

Again you're obtuse. Let ignore TZ farmers for now . Let talk about Kenya farming. When you advice kenya farmers with shrinking land size to grow maize & sugarcane like Brazil or Mexico farmers with thousands of acres then we have to doubt your sanity. Maize & Sugar farming is profitable as small-holding when planted from around 4 acres - now in most of kenya - it basically down to less than 1 acre - and therefore it make sense for those farmers to transition to high-value labour intensive farming like dairy - that should keep them actively and profitably engaged.

The future of kenya farming is intensive agriculture like is done in Netherlands and Isreal. It will be rural places dotted with greenhouses, highly productive dairy cows, heavily fertilized farming of high-value crops. Not large tracts of maize, sugar cane, wheat and cereals.Not large scale farming like Brazil or US or Mexico. Maybe Tanzania can do that - considering it has twice the land and about twice more arable.

See, am not hear to blow the trumpet for Tz commerical farming..No, am pointing out the problems, giving suggestions and cautions on land issues that may arise from private profiteers getting huge chunks of land.
You on the otherhand, you want to blow the trumpet of how succesful farmers are in kenya, how they are making money etc while the situation on the ground is very different..
And to make matters worse, you bismirch maize farmers by telling them to plant avocados while mexico(developed country) has farmers who are making money by growing maize.
Farmers in brazil (developed) plant sugarcane and make handsome profits too while you suggest kenya is too rich to engage itself in dirty food crops like sugarcane..
Boss you have mental problems

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Mkikuyu Akili-Timamu stop exaggerating the land issue,historical land injustices are rampant in coast where little or no commercial farming takes place.

Yes, there is little or no farming coz the people who bought / grabbed the land dont use it productively in farming,instead they borrow loans aganist these properties and buy apartments in dubai or engage in other shady business unrelated to farming that leaves the citizens with no land and no farms to seek employment in..
That is the problem that Tz trying to avoid..Land issues are soverign issues and should be approched with care..That however should not be an excuse, Tz should find other ways to attract FDI and still retain their land

 

[Stano]

Retrogressive thinking. The legacy of Ujamaa. Land is not sovereign issue. Land is a means of production. What TZ need to do is to empower it's people by giving or securing land rights. It also need to make it easy for foreign investors to acquire land legally.Kenya understands this clearly and has dished out millions of title-deeds to these farmers - so they can use it to borrow or leverage - or even sell it to local or foreign investors if need be - who can utilize that land.

Yes, there is little or no farming coz the people who bought / grabbed the land dont use it productively in farming,instead they borrow loans aganist these properties and buy apartments in dubai or engage in other shady business unrelated to farming that leaves the citizens with no land and no farms to seek employment in..
That is the problem that Tz trying to avoid..Land issues are soverign issues and should be approched with care..That however should not be an excuse, Tz should find other ways to attract FDI and still retain their land

 

[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Again you're obtuse. Let ignore TZ farmers for now . Let talk about Kenya farming. When you advice kenya farmers with shrinking land size to grow maize & sugarcane like Brazil or Mexico farmers with thousands of acres then we have to doubt your sanity. Maize & Sugar farming is profitable as small-holding when planted from around 4 acres - now in most of kenya - it basically down to less than 1 acre - and therefore it make sense for those farmers to transition to high-value labour intensive farming like dairy - that should keep them actively and profitably engaged.

The future of kenya farming is intensive agriculture like is done in Netherlands and Isreal. It will be rural places dotted with greenhouses, highly productive dairy cows, heavily fertilized farming of high-value crops. Not large tracts of maize, sugar cane, wheat and cereals.

Not large scale farming like Brazil or US or Mexico. Maybe Tanzania can do that - considering it has twice the land and about twice more arable.

Boss, I have been telling you that small scale farming is not economical..even when kenyan small scale tea farmers seem to be still making profits..When did I ever suggest sub division of land? that is just absurd.
You on the otherhand is here to blow the trumpet on how succesful small scale farmers in kenya are and how happy they are..
Be honest with yourself..Developed economies like brazil & mexico are still farming so called dirty food crops and making a profit..But your lazy self want to advice farmers to quit and plant ovacadoes instead..
Kenya should learn from brazil on how farmers are still making profits on food crops..Thats is the reason why I said Tz has nothing to learn or copy from kenya

 

[Kunta kinte1776]

Mkikuyu Akili -Timamu my point was commercial farming has nothing to do with historical land injustices in central and rift valley,coast region is where land issues are very emotive,as a matter of fact those multi national agri corporations have greatly improved the livelihoods of the locals,take a look at thika for instance, has one of the highest standard of living in kenya

 

[muyovozi]

Nyerere hatukupenda Sera zake kama Leo Magufuli. Lakini najiulza kwa nini GDP ya Tanzania ilikuwa ikiongoza na Kenya inafuatia, halafu Nyerere alipostaafu ndipo Kenya akatuongoza kwa GDP . wajuzi wa uchumi naomba mnifafanulie hili tafadhali.

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[Mkikuyu- Akili timamu]

Retrogressive thinking. The legacy of Ujamaa. Land is not sovereign issue. Land is a means of production. What TZ need to do is to empower it's people by giving or securing land rights. It also need to make it easy for foreign investors to acquire land legally.Kenya understands this clearly and has dished out millions of title-deeds to these farmers - so they can use it to borrow or leverage - or even sell it to local or foreign investors if need be - who can utilize that land.

You do not have to surrender your land for capital in this day and age! There is so much venture captial -VC money available to enterprenures...did google or facebook grow by getting loans aganist land? Perhaps that is the way that Tz can attract FDI without messing up land issues..
Loan aganist land is a 19th century form of raising capital, outdated and comes with its own baggage of community issues