Class Struggle in Tanzania

CottonEyeJoe said:

Only one true class struggle exists today and thats between "Wananchi" and "Wenye nchi".......

Click to expand...

Haya ni matabaka mawili mkuu na si moja... kama lingekuwa moja sidhani kama lingepingana dhidi yake lenyewe

Kitila Mkumbo said:

They may not be used, but they are still extensively analysed and form an important part of academic discourse. But it is true no western country would even dream implementing Marxist ideas; they are simply an unimplementable!

Click to expand...

Mkuu kuna tofauti kati ya Marxism as an analytical tool na Marxism as a political ideology. As a an analytical tool Marxism has been used in the West and is still used. They use it to understand the relation between capital, labour and surplus. Moreover, they also use it to understand class struggle in their societies as well as in relation to neighbouring countries e.g. in the case of US vs Mexico. Now in terms of Marxism as a political ideology/project the West may claim, as you claim here, that implementing Marxist ideas is simply unimplementable but check out how many of those ideas they have been implementing under different guises/ terminologies even prior to the global financial crisis.

P.S. I was shocked to see how much Classical Marxist Readers are prescribed to students in a respected American University and here we are jettisoning the writings of the person who understood Capital more than the Capitalists themselves understood it!

Mpita Njia said:

Haya ni matabaka mawili mkuu na si moja... kama lingekuwa moja sidhani kama lingepingana dhidi yake lenyewe

Click to expand...

Nimesema kuna "one true class STRUGGLE" the struggle is between two classes lakini struggle ndiyo iko mmoja na hiyo struggle ni kati ya class hizo mbili....you get me i hope???

Huwezi kuwa na a meaningful struggle kama hamna "self awareness".

Tanzania hamna "self awareness" therefore hakuna identification, therefore hakuna a struggle to speak of.

Kuna skirmishes za hapa na pale tu, leo Mtikila anasema hivi vile, baadaye anahongwa na ana fade, kesho Mrema hivi vile, baadaye kimya.

Sisi tunazunguka around personalities na wala si policies, kwa hiyo hatuwezi kuwa na struggle ya maana.

Wtawala washa hijack tangu JUWATA, OTTU Chama cha Walimu, Jumuiya ya kinamaa, wazazi mpaka machinga wamtetekwa nyara, kijiweni kwa machinga waliochoka kabisa kuna bendera ya CCM.

Struggle itoke wapi hapo?

Bluray said:

Huwezi kuwa na a meaningful struggle kama hamna "self awareness".

Tanzania hamna "self awareness" therefore hakuna identification, therefore hakuna a struggle to speak of.

Kuna skirmishes za hapa na pale tu, leo Mtikila anasema hivi vile, baadaye anahongwa na ana fade, kesho Mrema hivi vile, baadaye kimya.

Sisi tunazunguka around personalities na wala si policies, kwa hiyo hatuwezi kuwa na struggle ya maana.

Wtawala washa hijack tangu JUWATA, OTTU Chama cha Walimu, Jumuiya ya kinamaa, wazazi mpaka machinga wamtetekwa nyara, kijiweni kwa machinga waliochoka kabisa kuna bendera ya CCM.

Struggle itoke wapi hapo?

Click to expand...

Mkuu unaongea kana kwamba class struggle lazima iendeshwe na hao walalahai kina Mtikila, Mrema na hivyo vyama vya ambavyo vimetekwa nyara na mabepari uchwara. Mbona huongelei mapambano kati ya wamachinga na wakuu; wafugaji/wakulima na viongozi wa wilaya; na wanaobomolewa nyumba zao na Sirikali? Au na hizi nazo unaziita 'skirmishes za hapa na pale' ? Alafu kumbuka class struggle haimaanishi mpaka tabaka la chini lijibu mapigo linapopigwa - hata likipigwa na tabaka la juu bila kujibu mapigo directly hiyo nayo ni class struggle!

Companero said:

Mkuu unaongea kana kwamba class struggle lazima iendeshwe na hao walalahai kina Mtikila, Mrema na hivyo vyama vya ambavyo vimetekwa nyara na mabepari uchwara. Mbona huongelei mapambano kati ya wamachinga na wakuu; wafugaji/wakulima na viongozi wa wilaya; na wanaobomolewa nyumba zao na Sirikali? Au na hizi nazo unaziita 'skirmishes za hapa na pale' za hapa na pale? Alafu kumbuka class struggle haimaanishi mpaka tabaka la chini lijibu mapigo - hata likipigwa na tabaka la juu bila kujibu mapigo hiyo nayo ni class struggle!

Click to expand...

Ninachosema ni kwamba wabongo wa tabaka la chini wame resign, hawana organization ya ku advance struggle.

Hizo unazozitaja ndiyo hizo "skirmishes" zenyewe.

Kama hamna reaction kutoka kwa tabaka la chini utaaitaje hii kama class struggle? Itakuwa more of class sufferring than class struggle.

Bluray said:

Ninachosema ni kwamba wabongo wa tabaka la chini wame resign, hawana organization ya ku advance struggle.

Hizo unazozitaja ndiyo hizo "skirmishes" zenyewe.

Kama hamna reaction kutoka kwa tabaka la chini utaaitaje hii kama class struggle? Itakuwa more of class sufferring than class struggle.

Click to expand...

Unakumbuka kabla ya kuandika 'Class Struggle in Tanzania', Shivji aliandika 'Silent Class Struggle in Tanzania' - Hizo 'skirmishes za hapa na pale' unazoongelea ndio hizo 'Silenced Class Struggle' zenyewe; kuna 'Mute Class Struggle in Tanzania' ndio maana walalahai na walalaheri hamuzioni - Walalahoi wanapopiga mawe msafara wa Rais na kutungua Helikopta ya Mwekezaji kwa Mawe basi ujue kuna 'Passive Class Struggle' inasuburi tu maturity na ignition ili ilipuke na kuwa 'Active Class Struggle'!

Bongo bana, intellectual mmoja tu, point of reference ya kila mtu, Shivji, Shivji, Shivji kasema, Shivji kaandika.... wengine mpaka wanakwambia usibishane na mimi, mimi nimefundishwa na Shivji.

Sijawaji kuwaona the Shivji's of the world uswahilini, sijui wana asses vipi ulalahai, na hoi, na heri kutoka kwenye viti vya mikono kwenye ivory towers za vyuo.

Dilunga said:

Bongo bana, intellectual mmoja tu, point of reference ya kila mtu, Shivji, Shivji, Shivji kasema, Shivji kaandika.... wengine mpaka wanakwambia usibishane na mimi, mimi nimefundishwa na Shivji.

Sijawaji kuwaona the Shivji's of the world uswahilini, sijui wana asses vipi ulalahai, na hoi, na heri kutoka kwenye viti vya mikono kwenye ivory towers za vyuo.

Click to expand...

Sasa na wewe si umepewa nafasi hapa utoe maoni ama ya kumkosoa Shivji au kuunga mkono, au uje tofauti kabisa na non-Euclidean geometry yako.

Unabaki ulalamishi.

Kwa ulalamishi huu, hutatui tatizo la kutokuwa na wataalamu, unaongeza.

Dilunga mada hii ilianza kwa kuhoji hoja ya Shivji kuhusu 'Class Struggle in Tanzania' hivyo Shivji amekuwa kiini (Reference Point) cha mjadala hivyo usidandie garimoshi katikakati bila kuangalia limetokea wapi na linaenda wapi. Swali ni: Je, alichosema Shivji kuhusu kuwepo kwa Class Struggle hapa Tanzania ni kweli? Hujakatazwa kutumia wananadharia unaowajua wewe kujibu swali. Lijibu basi badala ya kulalamika kuwa wenzako wanamnukuu nani. Kama huna cha kujibu waachie wenzako wajaribu kujibu.

P.S. Huyo Shivji unayesema hajui habari za walalahai aliongoza Tume ya Rais ya Masuala ya Ardhi iliyotembelea Wilaya Zote za Tanzania kasoro 2 kuzungumza na Wananchi kuhusu migogoro ya ardhi na kujionea hali halisi - amezaliwa na kukulia Kilosa huko ambako kuna Class Struggle kali ya ardhi.

Companero said:

P.S. Huyo Shivji unayesema hajui habari za walalahai aliongoza Tume ya Rais ya Masuala ya Ardhi iliyotembelea Wilaya Zote za Tanzania kasoro 2 kuzungumza na Wananchi kuhusu migogoro ya ardhi na kujionea hali halisi - amezaliwa na kukulia Kilosa huko ambako kuna Class Struggle kali ya ardhi.

Click to expand...

Kwa kuongezea, japo si mlalahoi, ni mwananchi Nyerere type, amekuwa profesa kwa zaidi ya miaka 20, gari lake ni Toyota Starlet huku akiishi nyumba ya msajili Upanga.
Kama mwanasheria aliyebobea, angekuwa milionea, lakini ukisikia kesi yoyote inatetewa na Prof, Shivji, ujue ni kesi ngumu tena ya Msaada wa Kisheria ya Chuo Kikuu cha Dar es Salaam.
Wakati walimu wengine wa sheria wakianzia siku mahakamani kubanana na fungu, Prof. Shivji anaingia kipindi cha kwanza, saa 1:00 asubuhi. Wakati walimu wengine wakipumzika viti virefu jioni, Prof. Shivji anafundisha kipindi cha mwisho 1:00 usiku mpaka saa 2:00.

Ni miongoni mwa walimu wenye kufundisha ili mwanafunzi aelimike, kuna walimu wengine, ile ni ajira anafundisha kutimiza ajira na kupata mshahara yao.

Ukifeli somo lake unajijua umefeli kihalali wala huna haja ya apeal wakati kuna walimu wanabani huku wengine wanatoa maksi za chupi, wakinyimwa cha moto utakipata, na kuna wengine wanabania kisa kazidiwa kete mambo binafsi, au kakataliwa tuu akidhani kisa ni wewe, na usipokuwa makini, mbona disco watu tumecheza sana tuu lakini sio Shivji.

Miongoni mwa Maprof, Shivji nimemvulia kofia. Ila na wengine pia wapo!.

Jamani hapa hatuzungumzii "tabia" ya Prof. Shivji. Wote tunaomfahamu tunajua ni mtu mzuri mno! Mimi mwenyewe naweza kutoa ushuhuda kwamba nikiwa TA UDSM, aliacha kazi zake (za kuanisha Class Struggle) akanihangaikia nipate hati ya kusafiria (nilikuwa nimepata nafasi ya kwenda masomoni). Aliniapisha na kujaza fomu bila kunidai hata senti moja.

Swala ni hili: Je, kwenye miaka ya sabini wakati Shivji, Mamdan, Haroub Othman, Nabudere na Hirji wakipambana vikali kuhusu Class Struggle in Tanzania, kulikuwepo kweli na mapambano ya kitabaka? Na sasa kuna mapambano ya kitabakaTanzania?

Nafurahi kusikia sasa Profesa wetu ameanisha kwamba matabaka yaliyopo Tanzania ni 1. Walalahoi 2. Walalaheri 3. Walalahai. Sikatai kwamba kuna matabaka, ila nauliza: yanapambana?

Hao walalaheri kweli ni tabaka "a la Marx", yaani la kiuchumi? Maana contemplatives wote ni walalaheri, na hawana mali. Hawaruhusiwi kuwa na mali. Na wenye mali wengi hawalali, kwani wana mawazo mno!

Augustine Moshi,
Mkuu swali zuri lakini nachosema mimi inategemea unachotaka kufahamu, kama ni kutokana na kitabu cha Shivji au unauliza kama kweli kuliwepo Class struggle in Tanzania..
Binafsi naamini kabisa class struggle haiwezi kwisha maadam sisi binadam tulioumbwa kwa tofauti zetu za fikra ktk matamanio..Kila mwamba ngozi huvutia kwake na hiyo ndio class struggle in the making!

Wakati wa Mwalimu, kumbuka ndio kwanza tulikuwa tumepata Uhuru na wengi walitegemea kwamba UHURU ule unawapa wao zile nafasi aloacha mkoloni yaani tulikuwa tunabadilishwa vichwa vya mtawala..hivyo ktk Utawala wenyewe kulikuwepo na struggle..Naamini kuwa Majaribio ya Mapinduzi yoyote ya kijamii au utawala mara nyingi hutokana na class struggle...
Nafasi ya wanawake ktk jamii kulikuwepo na crash na bado ipo, na nadhani hata kuingia siasa za Ujamaa na Kujitegemea kulitokana na class struglgle kwani siwezi kuweka sababu kubwa ya Ujamaa huo ambao ulifanya kazi zaidi ndani nchini kuliko nje ikiwa sisi wote tulikuwa maskini na wajamaa..Kumbuka tuliamini na kuwaita watu majina kama Mabwanyenye, Wanyonyaji, Makabalila, Mabepari na kadhalika...

Leo hii class struggle ipo..Ukiwa kiongozi na member of CCM ukaitwa Mheshimiwa (the alite group), U are above the law, Untouchable...na sii mlalahoi hata kidogo...Bara na visiwani, Waislaam kwa Wakristu, wanawake na vijana ktk tawala kinyume cha tamaduni zetu na mengine mengi ni maswala ambayo yanatakiwa kuwa addressed pamoja na kwamba tunajaribu sana kuyapuuza.

Hivi kupambana ni mpaka watu washike bunduki? Wamachinga wanapofukuzwa ili wapishe walalaheri na mashopping mall yao kisha wanapopinga na kurudi mtaani kiaina huoni hilo ni pambano la kitabaka? Wanafunzi wanapoandamana kupinga kupanda kwa nauli wakati watoto wa walalaheri na baadhi ya watoto wa walalahai wanapanda maskuli basi yenye viyoyozi huoni kuwa hiyo ni class struggle? Au unasubiri uone violent revolution ndio utaamini kuwa kulikuwa na (Silent) Class Struggle in Tanzania?

Companero said:

Hivi kupambana ni mpaka watu washike bunduki? Wamachinga wanapofukuzwa ili wapishe walalaheri na mashopping mall yao kisha wanapopinga na kurudi mtaani kiaina huoni hilo ni pambano la kitabaka? Wanafunzi wanapoandamana kupinga kupanda kwa nauli wakati watoto wa walalaheri na baadhi ya watoto wa walalahai wanapanda maskuli basi yenye viyoyozi huoni kuwa hiyo ni class struggle? Au unasubiri uone violent revolution ndio utaamini kuwa kulikuwa na (Silent) Class Struggle in Tanzania?

Click to expand...

Umewahi kuyasikia mapambano ya kifikra ya Mwanakijiji?

Waungwana,kwa kutumia theory ya Maxism kuhusu class struggle,bado sijamwelewa vizuri Mwalimu Moshi hapa...Kwa maana kwamba bado sijaelewa msingi hasa wa hoja yake....Na hivyo basi Ndugu Moshi ningeomba usahihishe kama niko wrong.

Class struggle ya Maxism imebase kwenye means of pruduction,kwa utaratibu huo,chini ya ujamaa ni wazi hakuna classes...However issue hii ni complex kwasababu kama kuna haves na have not,then ni wazi kuna class strugle,theoretically chini ya ujamaa hakuna classes,lakini je in reality/practically ni kweli hakuna classes? Hilo sidhani kwasababu kuna mifano imeshatolewa hapo nyuma kuhusu wale waliokuwa nazo toka enzi za mwalimu za ujamaa,hata hivyo swali la mwalimu pia linabaki kuwa,je kulikuwa na struggle?

Binafsi nasema ilikuwepo,tukichukulia mfano wa social Darwinsm tunaweza kuona kwa mapana zaidi kuwa struggles zipo individually na hata between classes.

Field Marshall ES said:

- Tuna mfano wa matabaka bado hatujawa na tabakas za kweli, isipokuwa one thing for sure tuna the ruling class, kwenye ku-create hili tumefanikiwa sana.

FMES!

Click to expand...

I see.......and so this is for sure as well:tuna tabaka la watawaliwa.Kumbe basi kuna watawala na watawaliwa for sure.Matabaka mawili for sure!
Sasa mzee FMES huo mfano wa matabaka ambayo bado hayajawa matabaka ya kweli ni nini?Tabaka liwe nini ndio liitwe tabaka?Hii tofauti inayopitiliza sasa ya kipato kati yetu haiakisi utabaka tuu?
Well,labda tabaka na matabaka yamepata maana mpya.........maana ninayoifahamu mimi inahitimisha kuwa matabaka yamekuwepo tangu na tangu........Classlessness is an ideal situation we all(world wide) dream about!

Companero said:

Hivi kupambana ni mpaka watu washike bunduki? Wamachinga wanapofukuzwa ili wapishe walalaheri na mashopping mall yao kisha wanapopinga na kurudi mtaani kiaina huoni hilo ni pambano la kitabaka? Wanafunzi wanapoandamana kupinga kupanda kwa nauli wakati watoto wa walalaheri na baadhi ya watoto wa walalahai wanapanda maskuli basi yenye viyoyozi huoni kuwa hiyo ni class struggle? Au unasubiri uone violent revolution ndio utaamini kuwa kulikuwa na (Silent) Class Struggle in Tanzania?

Click to expand...

Kwani Wamachinga ni tabaka? Labda ufafanue tabaka ni kitu gani. Wanafunzi nao ni tabaka? Wapinzani wao ni tabaka lipi? Ni wenye daladala?

Hata violent revolution ingetokea bado halitakuwa necessarily ni pambano la kitabaka. Idi Amin alipompindua Milton Obote lilikuwa ni pambano la kitabaka?

JMushi1,

It is certainly true, as you point out, that Shivji's "Class Struggle in Tanzania" was a materialistic analysis. After all these years, I wondered, loudly, whether it was simply a lot of hot air or we really had some kind of class struggle.

Part of the difficulty of settling the issue arises from the fact that the critical words in question (class, struggle) are being used without being defined.

I kind of like Mwalimu Nyerere's classes. You were either a "Ndugu" or a "Bwana", depending on whether you looked favourably on socialism or not. This neatly divided all the people in the word. Kenyatta was Bwana, Obote was Ndugu, Mao Tse Tung was Ndugu, Oscar Kambona was Bwana. If you were a ndugu and then you fell out with Mwalimu, you immediately became a Bwana.

I must specifically thank Mkandara for his well reasoned out contribution. As he too avoided defining "class" and "struggle", it is not clear whether he settled anything.

I would like to know whether all that time spent in class struggling with class struggle in Tanzania (and elsewhere) was simply wasted.

Companero said:

...Dilunga mada hii ilianza kwa kuhoji hoja ya Shivji kuhusu 'Class Struggle in Tanzania' hivyo Shivji amekuwa kiini (Reference Point)

... Swali ni: Je, alichosema Shivji kuhusu kuwepo kwa Class Struggle hapa Tanzania ni kweli?

...Huyo Shivji unayesema hajui habari za walalahai aliongoza Tume ya Rais ya Masuala ya Ardhi iliyotembelea Wilaya Zote za Tanzania kasoro 2 kuzungumza na Wananchi...

Click to expand...

Sawa, Campanero, ahsante kwa mwongozo wa kinachoongelewa hapa.

Kama "Swali ni: Je, alichosema Shivji kuhusu....hapa Tanzania ni kweli?" basi huwezi kutumia vielelezo vya Issa Shivji huyo huyo kuthibitisha ukweli ama uongo wa Issa Shivji huyo huyo kwa maneno ya vitabu vingine vya Issa Shivji huyo huyo. Shivji hiki, Shivji kile, Shivji Shivji Shivji kasema, Shivji kaandika. Tafadhali. Nipe ushahidi wa mtaalam mwingine kumsindikiza ua kumpinga huyo Shivji.

Na ni kituko kunambia Shivji anajua maisha ya Watanzania eti kwa vile alikuwa kwenye kamati ya Rais ya kuuliza wananchi maswali. Tafadhali sana. The Shivji's of the world hawajawahi kuja kujua na kuishi maisha yetu upande wa pili wa jiji na kijiji ambako mbuzi kalamba reli. Wamepitia kuuliza maswali nchi nzima, wameuliza wangapi? Na, ni nini kilifanyika baada ya kuulizana maswali? Maswala ya ardhi ni moja ya tatizo sugu linalolikumba Tanzania ya leo, halafu unanambia Tume ya Shivji ya Ardhi ilifanya hiki ilifanya kile, ilifanya nini? Alipita akauliza maswali, mbona hatujamsikia tena baada ya maswali? Waliifanyia nini hiyo ripoti ya maswali ya ardhi?

Watalaam mnaishi kwenye majengo ya maofisi ya ndovu mkiandika makaratasi ya utafiti mwingine, na buku lingine, na ripoti ya Rais nyingine, na takwimu nyingine, mkitoka hapo mnarudi kwenye viota vya utulivu vya Upanga na Masaki halafu unambia unajua ninavyoishi mimi, kwa kuuliza maswali?

Nitafutie vielelezo vingine, sio hivyo hivyo vya Shivji kumtathmini Shivji kwa maneno ya Shivji.

Posted by Campanero: Unakumbuka kabla ya kuandika 'Class Struggle in Tanzania', Shivji aliandika 'Silent Class Struggle in Tanzania' - Hizo 'skirmishes za hapa na pale' unazoongelea ndio hizo 'Silenced Class Struggle'

Posted by Campanero: Kwa mujibu wa Shivji Tanzania sasa kuna matabaka 3:
1. Walalaheri
2. Walalahai
3. Walalahoi