Denying the Holocaust

Denying the Holocaust

X-PASTER banaeee,

kem usipindishe hii kitu....wajerumani ndio waliotenda hiki kitendo...
kama walikua wakristo, waiislamu, mabaniani au wakosa dini sio hoja...
hapa swala ni je waliuwawa au hawakuuwawa?
Samahani mkuu, ni kweli waliuwawa milioni sita (6,000,000)?, au hivyo ndivyo tunavyo soma kwenye vyombo vya habari, ambavyo 75% vinamilikiwa na hao hao mayahudi. Nahisi walikuwa wanatafuta sympathy tu hawa.
 
Samahani Mwana, ina maana unakubaliana kuwa wakristu waliwauwa hawa wayahudi milioni (6)...!? Au ilikuwa propaganda ya kivita tu, katika kutafuta sympathy!?

Mkuu the extermination of Jews by Nazi Germany had nothing to do with religion but all to do with race. If you read history you will see that Hitler so his "Aryan" race superior to all others and wanted Germany to maintain a "pure" race. Ndiyo maana they tried to get rid of other groups such as gypsies and even the disabled. I hope that helps to answer your question.
 
Mwana FA,

Naona hili darasa lako litafanya uumwe na kichwa bure mzee
mwenzangu.

Mkuu wacha tu tuweke data na tuelezee kwa logic. Saa nyingine mtu atabisha tu lakini logic ikiwepo hata yeye moyoni ata kubali ukweli hata kama hata kiri mbele za watu.
 
Samahani mkuu, ni kweli waliuwawa milioni sita (6,000,000)?, au hivyo ndivyo tunavyo soma kwenye vyombo vya habari, ambavyo 75% vinamilikiwa na hao hao mayahudi. Nahisi walikuwa wanatafuta sympathy tu hawa.
Mkuu Ujerunami ni taifa kubwa. Wasingeweza kukubali nchi yao ipakwe matope kama kulikuwa na uongo unaosemwa. Wajerumani wenyewe hawa pingi matokeo ambayo yameandikwa kwenye historia. Unless useme Ujerumani kuna wayahudi napo wanao control media na serikali ya huko.
 
It was very sad story WALIWAROSTI katika vumba vya gas, Utashanga kwani wakati vitendo hivyo vinafanyika Germans ndio alikuwa mtawala wetu hapa Tanganyika,
 
Mkuu the extermination of Jews by Nazi Germany had nothing to do with religion but all to do with race. If you read history you will see that Hitler so his "Aryan" race superior to all others and wanted Germany to maintain a "pure" race. Ndiyo maana they tried to get rid of other groups such as gypsies and even the disabled. I hope that helps to answer your question.
Nasikia Pope aliwahi kwenda kuomba msamaha kwa yale mauwaji... sasa unaposema nothing to do with religion (Christianity) kidogo unatoka nje ya mstari mkuu.
 
Nasikia Pope aliwahi kwenda kuomba msamaha kwa yale mauwaji... sasa unaposema nothing to do with religion (Christianity) kidogo unatoka nje ya mstari mkuu.

Soma hii article chini mkuu utaelewa kwa nini Papa aliomba msamaha kwa Wayahudi. Naomba usome vizuri utaelewa mkuu.

Apology and the Holocaust; The Pope's in a Confessional, And Jews Are Listening

By CELESTINE BOHLEN

Published: Sunday, November 30, 1997



MORE than any other Pope in history, Pope John Paul II leader of the world's almost one billion Roman Catholics -- has asked forgiveness for the sins, crimes and errors committed in the name of his faith.

He has apologized for the persecution of Protestants, for the crimes of the Crusaders; he has asked forgiveness for the abuses of Europe's colonial-era proselytizing around the world; he has voiced regret at the church's repression of Galileo and condemned its silence regarding Italy's own murderous Mafia.

But with only two years to go before Christianity closes the books on its first 2,000 years, the Pope has yet to ask forgiveness of the Jews for the violence they have suffered over the centuries at the hands of the church, its followers and, in some cases, its leaders. Most particularly, he has yet to make a reckoning of what many have condemned as the silence of the Vatican during the systematic slaughter of Europe's Jews by the Nazis during World War II.
And it is this apology that weighs most heavily on the church. It was first promised in 1987 by the Pope himself in a meeting with American Jewish leaders in Miami. It has been anticipated in apologies to the Jews by the Catholic bishops of Germany, Poland, Hungary and, most recently, France, for the failure of their local churches to oppose the Holocaust.

Many Jewish leaders see the long-awaited papal statement on the church, anti-Semitism and the Holocaust -- being prepared by the Vatican Commission for Religious Relations with Judaism -- as the conclusive test of the willingness of the church to confront its share of guilt for the tragedy that befell the Jews.

''It is not so much an apology we are looking for, since this Pope has many times expressed remorse for anti-Semitism,'' said Rabbi David Rosen, director of the Israel office of the Anti-Defamation League, the league's Vatican liaison. ''But what could resolve the outstanding resentment which is still to be found among Jews is an honest reckoning of the actual role church leaders took during the period of the Holocaust, and to what extent this was impacted on by church teachings on Jews and Judaism.

''It is clear,'' he added, ''that there are some in the Vatican who have reservations about how far it should go.''

Arab Christians

Some observers attribute the document's slow progress to resistance from Vatican diplomats concerned with the church's relations with the Arab world, and in particular with the status of an estimated 10 million Arab Christians, who feel caught in Arab-Israeli hostilities in the Middle East. In the past, resistance from Arab Christian leaders has contributed to the Vatican's hesitancy first to recognize the state of Israel, and to improve relations with Jews generally.
Others detect a wish among church officials to put a stop to apologies altogether. ''It makes no sense to judge completely diverse situations, three, four, five centuries after the fact,'' Giacomo Cardinal Biffi, the archbishop of Bologna, said recently.

No Catholic leader would deny that the church bears a historical burden of anti-Judaism -- a prejudice that, as the Pope himself recently admitted, crept into interpretations of the New Testament, damning the Jews collectively as ''Christ-killers.'' But in the minds of many Catholics, that doesn't mean the Catholic Church bears a responsibility for the Holocaust. They point to the distinction between anti-Judaism (a religious prejudice) and anti-Semitism (a racial prejudice); between the Church itself and its followers, and between the Church's failure to challenge the Nazis and a conclusion that it shares the Nazis' guilt.

Even the Pope, in offhand remarks to reporters during a recent trip to Brazil, seemed almost annoyed by questions about the long-awaited document. ''It is interesting that it is always the Pope and the Catholic Church who ask for forgiveness while others remain silent,'' he said. In fact, the Protestant Church of the Rhineland, for one, in 1980 admitted the church's ''co-responsibility and guilt'' for the Holocaust.

Three years ago, the Pope set the year 2000 as a deadline for what he calls the church's ''examination of conscience.'' He has scheduled two theological symposia to examine its history -- the first on anti-Judaism, held last month, and one next year to study the Inquisition, the papal courts that at various points in history weeded out heretics with systematic brutality.
Most Vatican experts expect the Pope to issue a pastoral letter sometime before the year 2000, in which he will atone for a range of sins including anti-Semitism. Some experts expect a separate document on the Holocaust, the one Jewish leaders have been awaiting for a decade.

''There will be an apology,'' said one Vatican observer. ''The question is for what.''

Many say the 77-year-old Pope has already done everything but formally apologize to the Jews. Born and raised in southern Poland, where many of his friends were Jews, his commitment to the eradication of anti-Semitism in church ranks has been evident since he became Pope in 1978.
In 1979, on a visit to the site of the Auschwitz death camp, he referred to the Holocaust as the ''Golgotha of our century.'' In Rome in 1986, he became the first Pope ever to visit a synagogue. Under him, diplomatic ties between the Vatican and Israel were finally established in 1994.

Some groundwork was laid earlier. At the Second Vatican Council in 1965, the church formally repudiated collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus, and condemned anti-Semitism. Since then, other documents have been issued, purging Catholic texts of such phrases as ''perfidious Jews'' (once part of the Good Friday liturgy) and pressing for more active Catholic contacts with Jewish communities. ''Today the Catholic church is not part of the problem, but part of the solution,'' Rabbi Rosen said.

But for many Jews, the Vatican's failure to make a public accounting of its actions during World War II rankles the most. Its accusers see Pope Pius XII's general silence as evidence of the church's indifference to the fate of the Jews. His defenders say the Pope, fearful of Nazi wrath against Catholics, deliberately kept his voice low, while encouraging and even directing efforts to save Jews.

John Paul has already signaled that he will not stand in judgment of Pope Pius XII. During a trip to Germany two years ago, one of his speeches contained a passage -- which he chose not to read aloud -- attacking Pius's critics. ''Those who don't limit themselves to cheap polemics know very well what Pius XII thought about the Nazi regime, and how much he did to help the countless victims persecuted by that regime,'' the text said.

Last month, at the Vatican symposium on anti-Judaism, the Pope provided another hint about how far he is likely to go on the Holocaust. His remarks were elaborately, even awkwardly, worded, reflecting the intellectual pains taken to produce them, and can be summed up as follows: Certain strains of Christian thought, both wrong and unfair, fueled hostility toward the Jews. These erroneous interpretations of the New Testament, he said, played a role in numbing Christian consciences, to the point where many Christians, confronted with 20th century anti-Semitism, lost their moral bearings and failed to mount the spiritual resistance ''expected of the disciples of Christ.''

Passivity

Thus, in the Pope's view, it was not the church that promoted anti-Judaism, but wrong-headed Christian thinkers. Nor was anti-Judaism the incubator of the Nazis' anti-Semitism, which was a racist, not a religious, campaign. Finally, the moral failure of many Christians during the Holocaust was not one of active participation but of passivity (though the Pope stressed that many Christians did oppose the Holocaust, at great risk).

Many Jewish leaders would prefer to see the Pope concede a more direct link between anti-Judaism and the mentality that shaped the Holocaust. But most say the church's main task now is to continue to eradicate prejudice wherever it is found. ''The issue is to reach the conscience of the faithful, an effort which is under way,'' said Tullia Zevi, head of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities. ''These things take time. We are a patient people, and the Church is a patient institution. We move in slow times. The issue is to move in the right direction.''

Photo: In 1986, Pope John Paul II made the first papal visit to a synagogue. He met Rome's chief rabbi, Elio Toaff. (Associated Press)

Ukisoma vizuri mkuu utagundua papa aliomba msamaha kwa ajili Kanisa lake halikufanya ipasavyo kuwa saidia wayahudi na pia alikuwa anaomba msamaha kwa makosa mengine way before the Holocaust.
 
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Soma hii article chini mkuu utaelewa kwa nini Papa aliomba msamaha kwa Wayahudi. Naomba usome vizuri utaelewa mkuu.

Apology and the Holocaust; The Pope's in a Confessional, And Jews Are Listening

By CELESTINE BOHLEN

Published: Sunday, November 30, 1997
Maneno yangu hayakwenda mbali...!

Nasikia na wakiristu wa kiarabu nao wanalalamika kwa kuachwa solemba na kanisa... Hii imekaaje mkuu... mbona mambo yanaenda slow sana.
 
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Manenoyangu hayakwenda mbali...!

Nasikia na wakiristu wa kiarabu nao wanalalamika kwa kuachwa solemba na kanisa... Hii imekaaje mkuu... mbona mambo yanaenda slow sana.

Well ukisema kanisa mkuu ni lazima uwe specific. Maana kuna Ukristo na kuna madhehebu. Na wana lalamika on what grounds and basis. Anyway back to the thread....

Tukirudi kwenye Holocaust the killings were not religiously motivated kama nilivyo sema kwenye one of my posts. Hitler alikuwa anaongelea sana of an "Aryan" race and how it was supreme to all others. SO he wanted to eliminate all groups which didn't fit into "Aryan" categorization. ALiua pia Gypsies na vilema je na wao ilikuwa kwa sababu ya dini? He did not kill the Jews because of their religion he killed them because of their supposed race na ushahidi na historia. unaonyesha hivyo. Unless na wewe mkuu uje na ushahidi uonyeshe kuwa Hitler and the Nazis were motivated by religious differences.Refer to Hitler's book titled Mein Kampf or My struggles then utaelewa kuwa he was motivated by race not religion.
 
Mkuu Ujerunami ni taifa kubwa. Wasingeweza kukubali nchi yao ipakwe matope kama kulikuwa na uongo unaosemwa. Wajerumani wenyewe hawa pingi matokeo ambayo yameandikwa kwenye historia. Unless useme Ujerumani kuna wayahudi napo wanao control media na serikali ya huko.

Wajerumani kama wakipinga hizo data wataonekana kama ni anti-sentimism; ndiyo maana wapo kimya. Jambo la binadamu kuua binadamu mwenzake ni baya na halikubaliki na jamii zote. Watu hawapingi kwamba Holocaust haikuexist; wanachopinga ni kwamba wameoverstated the isssue in order to get help-financially. Hata issue ya Iran (Nuclear) inaongezwa chumvi na hawa Waisrael ili wapate misaada kutoka USA. Hizi ni fact ambazo kuna Maprofessor in US Universities wanafundisha; how AIPAC influence US foreign policy.
 
Wajerumani kama wakipinga hizo data wataonekana kama ni anti-sentimism; ndiyo maana wapo kimya. Jambo la binadamu kuua binadamu mwenzake ni baya na halikubaliki na jamii zote. Watu hawapingi kwamba Holocaust haikuexist; wanachopinga ni kwamba wameoverstated the isssue in order to get help-financially. Hata issue ya Iran (Nuclear) inaongezwa chumvi na hawa Waisrael ili wapate misaada kutoka USA. Hizi ni fact ambazo kuna Maprofessor in US Universities wanafundisha; how AIPAC influence US foreign policy.

You may be right mkuu ila mimi wanao nishangaza ni wale wanao deny the Holocaust completely. Kwa nini despite the evidence kuna watu wana kataa kata kata? Na by the way tuelimishane mkuu ni nani anae overstate the figures? bado ina rudi pale pale kuwa if that was the case why would Germany allow itself to take up more blame than needed? Kusema kuwa wanaogopa kuonekana anti-sentimental sidhani kama ni kweli kwa maana una taka kusema just because of that wata ruhusu tu any exaggeration?
 
MwanaFalsafa1, X-PASTER, DSM, Haki, nk, nimefurahi jinsi mlivyojadili hoja kwa hoja tangu ilivyoanza! Nimejifunza mambo kadha wa kadha. Kwa upande wangu naona kitendo alichokifanya Papa John Paul II cha kuomba msamaha kwa niaba ya Kanisa kwa mapungufu na makosa lililoyafanya kwa nyakati mbalimbali ni cha kihistoria na kinastahili kuigwa na taasisi, tawala, serikali na jamii ya kimataifa kwa ujumla!
 
...propaganda tu hizo, mbona dunia haipigi kelele Red Indians walivyokuwa mass murdered karne hizo? au kwakuwa hawana sauti kwakuwa wao ni 'wahindi' wekundu?

approximately 487,000,000 which is half a billion and these are the details of the wars and battles.
Dakota War of 1862 - skirmishes in the southwestern quadrant of Minnesota result in hundreds dead. In the largest mass execution in U.S. History

...au Aboriginal Tasmanians waliouliwa na white settlers huko Australia...?
 
...propaganda tu hizo, mbona dunia haipigi kelele Red Indians walivyokuwa mass murdered karne hizo? au kwakuwa hawana sauti kwakuwa wao ni 'wahindi' wekundu?



...au Aboriginal Tasmanians waliouliwa na white settlers huko Australia...?

Mkuu je watu wana kataa yaliyo wakuta Hahindi wekundu na Aborigins wa Australia? Hapa tuna ongelea baadhi ya watu kukataa tokeo ambalo ni wazi lili tokea. Tukianza mambo ya mbona hivi mbona vile basi hakuna tukio lita kalo jadiliwa maana kila tukio kuna wata kaosema mbona pia kuli tokea vile. I sympathize with the above groups you have mentioned and if you have details about what happened to them naomba umwage hapa JF.

Ninacho taka ni sisi sote tujifunze kutokana na matokeo muhimu ya kihistoria na tujifunza kutokana na makosa siyo kukana. Iwe Genonise ya Rwanda, Holocaust, mauaji ya Red Indians, 9/11 etc. Mimi leo nimeona niongelee swala hili ila watu wanaweza na wao kuanzisha thread za matukeo mengine.

"He who does not know history is bound to repeat it"
"Usipo jua ulipo toka hauwezi jua unapoenda"

Asante kwa maoni yako mkuu mbu.
 
MwanaFalsafa1, X-PASTER, DSM, Haki, nk, nimefurahi jinsi mlivyojadili hoja kwa hoja tangu ilivyoanza! Nimejifunza mambo kadha wa kadha. Kwa upande wangu naona kitendo alichokifanya Papa John Paul II cha kuomba msamaha kwa niaba ya Kanisa kwa mapungufu na makosa lililoyafanya kwa nyakati mbalimbali ni cha kihistoria na kinastahili kuigwa na taasisi, tawala, serikali na jamii ya kimataifa kwa ujumla!

Yes mkuu alicho fanya Papa Yohana ni kitu cha kupendeza sana. Ina furahisha pale mtu anapo kiri makosa na kuomba msamaha. Hakuna dhambi kubwa kama kutenda dhambi na kutetea dhambi hiyo. Na pia ina pendeza wana JF wakiongea kwa ustarabu bila jaziba na kutoa hoja badala ya hisia tu.
 
Hata mauaji ya kimbari ya Rwanda kuna watu wanakanusha kuwa hayakutokea,wakati kila mtu aliyekuwepo mwaka 1994 anajua kilichotokea Rwanda na Burundi. Sioni ajabu kwa wayahudi.
 
Although the Holocaust is an event which is historically accurate some people still deny that it ever happened. It is strange to me how one can deny an event which 1)Didn't happen that long ago 2)Proof is their including different pictures and documents. Example of people who deny the Holocaust ever happening is Iranian President Ahmadinejad. So I ask myself, do some people deny the Holocaust simply because they hate Jews? Or is because their country/people are in dispute with Israel? Or is it that some people just want to create controversy? Is it right to deny something that killed millions of innocent people just because you were taught from a young age that those people are your enemies? Make me wonder if 60 years from now there will be people who will deny that 9/11 ever occurred. If there is something we don't know hebu tumuagieni data wakuu.

Denying historically accurate facts is a form of blindness that will not help Ahmedinejad.
And I dare say this is what will destroy him.
I used to give him a thumbs up for his bravado stand against Israel but now I am not sure.
Given his blind historical perspective no wonder some people(including me) will not be surprised if a pre emptive strike is made against Iran's nuclear arsenal.
That might not be a bad thing afterall because it would be irresponsible to trust a person who is deranged.
 
Hata mauaji ya kimbari ya Rwanda kuna watu wanakanusha kuwa hayakutokea,wakati kila mtu aliyekuwepo mwaka 1994 anajua kilichotokea Rwanda na Burundi. Sioni ajabu kwa wayahudi.

Kwa mambo yanavyokwenda sio ajabu!
 
Wayahudi wanaikataa PhD ya Abu Mazen kwa sababu inazungumzia hoja hiyohiyo ya kijinga ya hawa ndugu zetu wajahidina. Sijaelewa kwenye dini yao kwanini wanawachukia sana wayahudi. Sasa kama dini inaweza ikamanifest chuki dhidi ya watu au kikundi fulani cha watu, tunawezaje kukaa kitako kwenye meza moja na watu wa dini hii ? Tunawezaje kutegemea kuvuna minazi kwa kupanda chelewa?

Koran 005.060
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
PICKTHAL: Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
SHAKIR: Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.
Koran 002.065
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
SHAKIR: And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
 
Hitler left the 3 million for the world to see how evil they are..controlling media,finance and catholic church....and now diluting the immoral issus like gay marriges etc....Lump it the fnal solution as never carried in full..
 
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