You all the time go back to the same issue I explained; My country is Tanzania, I am a Tanzanian. For you what comes first is Islam; for me what comes first is Tanzania, Tanzania is the Land where my mother father grad grand father were born and I am caling it my Land; and in the process of partition was called Tanganyika, and by the the process of Nationalism it is Tanzania. Therefore my land/my ancestors and my culture existed before Islam and Christianity, that is my point. For me all those (Islam and Christianity) are tools and poisons which have cripled our thinking. And in the same process it is true to say Islamic or chritian ideologies or beliefs (call them what) are the first tools which made us absolete! Kyanmbiss you are among the victims of cultural imperialism!
If you knew me, you would not say that. I agree about the influence of foreign traditions on African societies. You almost got me now.. You said for me its Islam first, umekosea kidogo. This is not about me personally. I dont wish to share my personal faith on JF because it is irrelevant, lakini what u got right is.. for Muslims, they are Muslims first before anything. That is the difference. And that is what makes this issue so difficult.. Sio Kinyambiss that says that... its the way it is. I just wanted you to realize the mentality that they have. And that is the problem that anyone who would try to impose monogamy would face in Tz. Dont get me wrong I'm not saying agree with that path, lakini at least now you understand what the barrier is.. TO MUSLIMS ISLAM comes FIRST above all other things... even family. SO mbaya wako sio kinyambiss, but rather the Islamic way of thinking. Nadhani hapo finally tutakuwa tumeelewana..lol
First of all I appreciate your admittance to your weakness on the influence of foreign cultures to your society. You've been frank; thank you.
But let me tell you this:
The same cultures which are foreign will never be allowed to influence government in China
The same cultures which are foreign will never be allowed to influence governments in Australia, the Arab world, India, EU, etc etc.
They have their doctrine: When you come to our land you must obey our Laws. That is all; because they are strong and their governments are strong on enforcing such laws. They leave you with your freedom of worship. In Saudi Arabia even christian churches are not allowed.
Indian businessmen are known for being very corrupt in Africa. They will not do the same in EU, America, or Australia. Or even their own countries. Everybody doing dubious business find it easier doing it in Africa; because we are very weak.
You can spread your culture very easily in africa as long as you have money. Just last year I heard that Budhism is growing in Tanzania; some Taiwan and South African Budha Society have been handing out cheap gifts including food and money to poor people and polticians. Pepole are converting. Those who are doing it are doing with the special aim, in the end to get people in their arena so that in the future they can get influence their wish.
So if we will tell these christians, Islamists etc etc that, this is our land you should obey our laws of the Land they will do that. Because we are passive and stupid; we embarce these cultures. These cultures divide us and leave us in conflict. And that is where we are heading.
To uproot such mentality we need people like you; education system that allows pepole to understand it is their country first. A country must have roots, and in Tanzania we have very strong laws, but the presidents are the law breakers. Reinforcement of ethics and rule of law will lead to that level. That is why we are asking about a president who hides himself from a real picture who he is!
Excuse yourself! my weakness?lol I have no weakenss of the sort. Dont you mean our weakeness.. as society, my personal stance is not up for discussion, as matter of fact it isnt by any means manifest on this forum.. It is difficult to erase cultural influences, that is the problem. China knew this and tried to isolate itself in the 19th century, Japan as well.. The middle east, its easy for them because of their fundamental islamic culture which is never really fully compatible with too many foreign influences. I guess everyone in Tanzania needs to do what the Maasai have done, whic is retain as much of their traditions as possible... funny enough, including polygamy. Sasa tuwakataze because its immoral sio.. because we have the almighty yardstick from George Kichaka...please.
A Tale of Two Wives
A couple of days back we had people here claiming that JK had two wives (at least). That sounded like a joke, but having more than one human being for a wife is no laughing matter!
JK is a leader. At east that is what most of us believe. What does it say about his view regarding the dignity of women if he can pick a couple of them as wives? Nothing lowers the dignity of women more than to combine several of them as your wives.
Leaders know that they are held to a higher standard than the rest. That is why some of them hide the fact that they have more than one partner when they are running for office. It is not possible to genuinely say that women have the same dignity as men and then have several of them as your wives.
Are one man and two wives three equal partners? In what way would the ladies be singly equal in dignity to the man and to each other? The dignity of each one of them is grossly violated when they take turns playing wife!
If JK has two wives then he should stop hiding one of them. He should at least have the decency to treat them with equal dignity, both in private and in public. He should take them both on his frequent international travel, and attend all functions with both. If he is embarrassed to be seen to be polygamous, then he ought not be polygamous! Above all, he should bring them both to his public rallies when he runs for re-election. The people deserve to know what kind of a man they are electing into office.
It may well be that some religions allow men to marry several wives. But it does not follow that nations approve of polygamous individuals ruling them. It offends against equality, and it is deeply embarrassing to have a polygamist as your president!
How can women activists in Tanzania close their eyes to polygamy? Polygamy reduces women into objects of pleasure. Women are not the same as men, but they are meant to be of equal dignity to men. In a situation of polygamy, to fight for the dignity of women must include fighting to end the abhorrent practice!
In this postmodern world, it is unacceptable for a nation to embrace polygamy and or polyandry. We must end it this primitive practice!
To those who are "concerned" about women's dignity, wouldn't it be better to talk about our appalling rate of schoolgirl pregnancies, early marriages and child rape? Focus on the disempowered, not the swingers jamani. Getting upset over other people's consensual and legal matrimonial arrangements between consenting adults demonstrates a concern with extending your morality to a diverse society and has little to do with "protecting" women. Haya mambo ya faux-Beijing achana nayo. There are far more important things to worry about than whether or not more than one woman is interested in being married to the President. Like: girl children getting raped and expolited, being trafficked for housework and sex work, dropping out of school etc. need a cause? pick one that makes sense and stop crusading through other people's bedrooms.
President Jakaya Kikwete is a Muslim and muslims are allowed to marry upto 4 wives as long as the husband treats them all equally. It is better to have a woman as your wife than as your "mistress" or "concubine".....so what dignity are you talking about? It is proven that there are more women than men in this world and the number of women is still increasing at a higher pace than that of the men, so this fact is here to stay. As a father, dont you think it is better to have some of your daughters married as second or third wives than become "Public property"? by public property I mean "prostitutes"...the women who lack the "dignity" your talking about. I can clearly see that you have been influenced by western ideologies, think like an African.....because I am sure that your ancestoral fathers had more than one wife and that may be the reason you are alive today! You cannot call polygamy an "abhorrent" and "primitive" practice while it is a way of life for Muslims and I can argue with you that it is correct on the basis of population imbalances between the male and female. We refuse to evaluate our President on the basis of him having more than one wife, like I said, his religion allows him and I am asking you to respect that....otherwise you will have gone against the Human Right act of everyones right to beleif.
To those who are "concerned" about women's dignity, wouldn't it be better to talk about our appalling rate of schoolgirl pregnancies, early marriages and child rape? Focus on the disempowered, not the swingers jamani. Getting upset over other people's consensual and legal matrimonial arrangements between consenting adults demonstrates a concern with extending your morality to a diverse society and has little to do with "protecting" women. Haya mambo ya faux-Beijing achana nayo. There are far more important things to worry about than whether or not more than one woman is interested in being married to the President. Like: girl children getting raped and expolited, being trafficked for housework and sex work, dropping out of school etc. need a cause? pick one that makes sense and stop crusading through other people's bedrooms.
"need a cause? pick one that makes sense and stop crusading through other people's bedrooms".
...Tanzania needs a President who have to work overtime; we cannot eat enough food; education is in shambles and few get proper education. No proper housing scheme. The medical facilities and our hospitals including health care system is in no place. We do not have any backbone industry, from Agriculture to Steel and Oil. And we call it a nation? And that nation has a President; and that president has time to have .............
I suppose I understand your puported good intentions, however you have to know that this is not my personal view that I want to marry many wives, nor am I married to many women. What I am arguing is that, for the people who practice it, in Tanzania, both men and women, after all, women who are married under such contracts do so by choice and therefore are not really being forced into anything, at least not legally. My point is no Muslim will ever accept a situation where his or her rights are curtailed for the sake of following some western ideal of morality, regardless of whether or not they even want to exercise that right. In the mind of a Muslim, it is inconceivable that anything that curtails a provision of the Quran, under whatsoever the banner, can be moral. That is the point that I wish to highlight here. My aim is not to meet half way or be on any side. All I seek to do is to set clear the idea that no Muslim will give such concessions simply because they already have the rights in Tanzania. Non muslims, with the exception of highly objective western scholars who are few and far between, often fail to comprehend the stance which Islam takes. It is perceived by adherents as being timeless. It, like Judaism and Buddhism, but unlike western christianity, is not a dynamic faith. In 10,000 years, if there are still Muslims, they will have the same practices as they did in 660 AD. Understand that first then we can talk. In other words ndugu yangu, I sympathize because I understand just how difficult it is for u to understand my point here, hawa watu hawawezi kukubali kwasababu dini yao haikubali mabadiliko. Kwa mfano juzi juzi niliona statement kwamba the Catholica Church wanapinga death penalty, which is a good thing... lakini nikakumbuka the inquisition nikacheka. They redefine their doctrine according to society. Islam haina hiyo. It is today as its always been haibadiliki. Kwahiyo kuondoa haki ya kuoa wake up to wa4 itachukuliwa kama kupigavita uislam, which may not be the intention of the advocates for change, equality etc?! sijui unanisoma?!
Mfano wako kuhusu marekani, EU etc.. Mimi naishi in the EU, here Muslims consider themselves living in the Land of Infidels kwahiyo they dont demand too much na hawaoi more than one wife, in their mind sio kwao... so inabidi wavumilie... Tanzania is a different case, kwasababu walikuwepo before Tanzania was even Tanganyika. Tukiweza kukubaliana mpaka hapo then we can discuss steps forward.
Future-Tanzania, now we are talking.
If the problem is forced marriage, why not call a spade a spade and say that you are against forced marriage because it goes against a woman's right to choose? forced marriage to a monogamist is not much more fun than forced marriage to a polygamist, my dear.
I agree with you that we need to look at how families operate and why we oppress women from childhood, resulting in: forced marriage and forced sex, which is the topic here after all. Banning polygamy is not going to do a damn thing to address that, it will just drive matters underground and instead of many formal arrangement we will end up with many ndoa za mikeka.
Also, to be effective in challenging horrible gender slavery, we need to choose our battles wisely instead of barking up a dubious moral proposition. if your point is that no woman should be forced against her will into marriage, then state it clearly and take matters from there. But unless we are using clear examples of forced marriage please let us not raise people's names in vain and examine their (again, consensual and legal) arrangements.
Cant you raise ur argument without using religion! Politics with religion should always be avoided, as other couple people said, if we not careful we are going to end up being like laboniess!
Who said you are a muslim or christin? just some people who come up with those religion to make sure that people are not getting along well. i do believe in my religion but i cant look at it as a way to make a country make its laws! achani unafiki wa dini, if u are really a true whatever u believe in, kwanini unafanya mambo against ur belief then...
Have your say without putting religion mate! what i can say Grow up in politics!