Lord Diplock MR
JF-Expert Member
- Mar 16, 2015
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- #141
Na je hakuna tofauti kati ya grammar ya legal language na plain language?
Na je hakuna tofauti kati ya grammar ya legal language na plain language?Hakika huna uwezo wa kusoma na kuelewa.
Wapi nimesema grammar siyo semantics?
Manake mimi nimesema grammar inajumuisha yote.
Wewe unasema mimi nimesema grammar siyo semantics?
Hebu nipe nukuu ya niliposema hivyo, tafadhali.
Legal English has traditionally been a special variety of English. Mysterious in form and expression, it is larded with law-Latin and Norman-French, heavily dependent on the past, and unashamedly archaic. Antiquated words flourish words such as herein, therein, whereas, wherefore— words long lost to everyday language. A spurious sense of precision is conjured through liberal use of jargon and stilted formalism: the said, aforesaid, the same, such (used as an adjective). Oddities abound: for example, oath swearers do not believe something, they verily believe it; parties do not wish something, they are desirous of it; the clearest photocopy only purports to be a copy; and so on. All this and much more from a profession which regards itself as learned.
Below is the quoted legal language and please show me if it is following the principle of grammar you are preaching
'[The tenant shall] when where and so often as occasion requires well and sufficiently ... repair renew rebuild uphold support sustain maintain pave purge scour cleanse glaze empty amend and keep the premises and every part thereof... and all floors walls columns roofs canopies lifts and escalators ... shafts stairways fences pavements forecourts drains sewers ducts flues conduits wires cables gutters soil and other pipes tanks cisterns pumps and other water and sanitary apparatus thereon with all needful and necessary amendments whatsoever ...'.
Ravenseft Properties Ltd v. Davstone (Holdings) Ltd [1979] 1 All ER 929)Where the hell did you pluck that garbage from?
You can call it garbage but that is the legal English of which you are layman to the knowledgeWhere the hell did you pluck that garbage from?
Sijakuelewa vizuriNa je hakuna tofauti kati ya grammar ya legal language na plain language?
Ukishatema haya mamisamiati unajiona Fundi mwenyewe
Kwa hiyo mnajua kiingereza!?Mkuu mimi nilikuepo kwenye admission ceremony hiyo. Jaji mkuu hakusema kilicho ripotiwa .
Hakika huna uwezo wa kusoma na kuelewa.
Wapi nimesema grammar siyo semantics?
Manake mimi nimesema grammar inajumuisha yote.
Wewe unasema mimi nimesema grammar siyo semantics?
Hebu nipe nukuu ya niliposema hivyo, tafadhali.
Okay vipi umesoma legal language unaijua? Je hakuna tofauti kati ya grammar ya legal English na plain language? Una uhakika hamna tofauti?
Ukinipa majibu ya maswali hayo hapo juu vizuri na kwa uthibitisho utakuwa na uhalali wa kumkosoa yeyote anayeandika legal English hapa jukwaani. Tukikupatia na hukumu za kina Jaji Mwalusanya, Lugakingira na akina Lord Denning na wajina wangu Lord Atkin utaweza kuchambua features za legal language ulizotumika humo.
Okay vipi umesoma legal language unaijua? Je hakuna tofauti kati ya grammar ya legal English na plain language? Una uhakika hamna tofauti?
Ukinipa majibu ya maswali hayo hapo juu vizuri na kwa uthibitisho utakuwa na uhalali wa kumkosoa yeyote anayeandika legal English hapa jukwaani. Tukikupatia na hukumu za kina Jaji Mwalusanya, Lugakingira na akina Lord Denning na wajina wangu Lord Atkin utaweza kuchambua features za legal language ulizotumika humo.
Let all agree that there is no formula in writing legal language and that is why you can find long sentence of which in grammar the principles will never allow you to write such kind of sentence. Let me give you one example:Technical language iko tofauti kidogo na lugha ya kawaida kwa sababu kuna misamiati inayotumika kwenye fani na kiufundi zaidi.
Hiyo ipo kwenye fani nyingi. Wahandisi wana terms zao, wanajeshi, bodybuilders, baskteballers, you name it.
Lakini hiyo kamwe haiondoi ukweli wa kwamba huwezi kutumia sarufi sahihi.
Hukumu za mahakama nazisoma sana tu. Ni sehemu ya kazi yangu.
Siwezi kutetea ubovu wa uandishi kwa kutumia mwamvuli wa eti sheria ina kanuni zake za kisarufi ambazo zinaruhusu makosa.
Umekazana "technical language" hapa mezani ipo moja tu "legal English" unaijua? Na siyo kutetea lugha mbovu bali hoja ni je unao uwezo wa kugundua hii ni lugha mbovu ya kisheria? Ili uwe na uwezo huo lazima uijue kwanza lugha yenyewe.Technical language iko tofauti kidogo na lugha ya kawaida kwa sababu kuna misamiati inayotumika kwenye fani na kiufundi zaidi.
Hiyo ipo kwenye fani nyingi. Wahandisi wana terms zao, wanajeshi, bodybuilders, baskteballers, you name it.
Lakini hiyo kamwe haiondoi ukweli wa kwamba huwezi kutumia sarufi sahihi.
Hukumu za mahakama nazisoma sana tu. Ni sehemu ya kazi yangu.
Siwezi kutetea ubovu wa uandishi kwa kutumia mwamvuli wa eti sheria ina kanuni zake za kisarufi ambazo zinaruhusu makosa.
Let all agree that there is no formula in writing legal language and that is why you can find long sentence of which in grammar the principles will never allow you to write such kind of sentence. Let me give you one example:
'[The Mortgagor shall pay] Also interest upon all such moneys as aforesaid or on so much thereof as shall for the time being be owing or payable or remain unpaid without (unless the Bank otherwise in writing agrees) allowing credit for any credit balance in any account or accounts of the Mortgagor and the Debtor or either of them either alone or jointly with any other person with the Bank at the rate or respective rates agreed upon in writing if any and in the absence of any such agreement then without prior or other notice to the Mortgagor or to the Debtor at such rate or rates as the Bank from time to time determines: except as otherwise provided by the terms of any agreement in writing relating to the whole or part of such moneys such interest shall accrue from day to day and shall be computed from the day or respective days of such moneys being paid or disbursed or becoming owing and at the end of every period of such duration as the Bank may from time to time determine and ending at the end of such day as the Bank may from time to time determine (with power in the Bank to vary from time to time the length of such period or the day or days on which such period ends), or, in the absence of any such effective determination, at the end of each period of one calendar month ending at the end of the last day thereof the interest accrued up to and including such day upon any such moneys in respect of such period or any part thereof shall (if or to the extent to which it has not already been paid) commence and thereafter so long as the whole or any part thereof shall remain unpaid shall continue to carry interest at the rate aforesaid and such accrued but unpaid interest may at the option of the Bank be debited against the Debtor or in the caseof interest upon moneys lent paid or advanced to for or on account of the Mortgagor or to for or on account of any other person as aforesaid at the request of the Mortgagor or for the payment of which the Mortgagor is liable to the Bank as hereinbefore stated then against the Mortgagor PROVIDED ALWAYS that such unpaid interest upon which interest shall become so payable shall not be deemed thereby or by reason of any such debiting as aforesaid or by the inclusion of interest with principal in any balance carried forward or account stated or otherwise than as hereinbefore provided to have become capitalised or added to principal but the Bank by express entry to that effect in its books and without the necessity of giving notice to the Debtor or the Mortgagor may at any time and from time to time and as from such date as the Bank shall determine capitalise and add to the principal all or any such unpaid interest upon which interest shall have become so payable and whether such unpaid interest shall have been debited as aforesaid or not and such debitings of interest and additions to principal may be continued and made and the provisions herein contained as to the moneys on which interest is payable shall continue to be applicable so long as any of such moneys remain unpaid notwithstanding that as between the Bank and the Debtor or as between the Bank and the Mortgagor or such other person as aforesaid the relationship of banker and customer may have ceased and notwithstanding the death or bankruptcy of the Mortgagor or of such other person as aforesaid and notwithstanding any composition or compromise entered into or assented to by the Bank with or in respect of the Debtor or the Mortgagor or such other person as aforesaid and notwithstanding any judgment obtained against the Debtor or the Mortgagor or such other person as aforesaid and notwithstanding any other matter or thing whatsoever; in interpreting the foregoing provisions money shall be deemed to remain unpaid notwithstanding any compromise compounding or release made or assented to by the Bank with or in respect of the Debtor or the Mortgagor or such other person as aforesaid until the Bank shall have received the full amount to which it would have been entitled if it had not entered into such compromise compounding or release PROVIDED that the amount of moneys deemed to have remained unpaid shall not include such sums as the Bank shall have received in respect thereof'. (763 words; as one sentence)
Umekazana "technical language" hapa mezani ipo moja tu "legal English" unaijua? Na siyo kutetea lugha mbovu bali hoja ni je unao uwezo wa kugundua hii ni lugha mbovu ya kisheria? Ili uwe na uwezo huo lazima uijue kwanza lugha yenyewe.
Kuwajudge watu kuwa wamekosea kuandika lugha ya kisheria wakati wewe mwenyewe huijui vyema hauwatendei haki na hawana kitu chochote cha kujifunza kutoka kwako kwenye hiyo legal English maana huijui.
Hivi ushawahi ona Judge anatoa hukumu kwenye maswali ya sheria halafu yeye hajasoma sheria? Hivi wewe utakuwa na uhakika na hukumu yake? Unahukumu vipi kwenye jambo ambalo hulijui kama siyo kiherehere ndugu yangu? Maana hata ukiambia tuelekeze liweje utaleta zako za plain English.
Halafu umekariri kwamba grammar zote ni sawa hata kwenye technical language, tunakuambia siyo sawa. Huwa nawaona wengi wenye viherehere wanakosoa hukumu za Majaji na mahakimu kwenye kitu ambacho grammatically kwenye legal English ni sahihi lakini utakuta mtu anakomaa.
Siwakatazi kukosoa ni Uhuru wenu lakini ni busara mkakosoa kwenye mambo ambayo mna uhakika mnayajua vyema ili hata mnaowakosoa wajifunze kutokana na ukosoaji wenu. Lakini huu ukosoaji wa kibubububu utawasaidia kupata cheap popularity tu bila matokeo chanya kwa jamii.
I rest my case!
Achana nae huyo Nyani huwa ana stress sana na maisha na pia anatafuta cheap popularity kupitia kwako.Umekazana "technical language" hapa mezani ipo moja tu "legal English" unaijua? Na siyo kutetea lugha mbovu bali hoja ni je unao uwezo wa kugundua hii ni lugha mbovu ya kisheria? Ili uwe na uwezo huo lazima uijue kwanza lugha yenyewe.
Kuwajudge watu kuwa wamekosea kuandika lugha ya kisheria wakati wewe mwenyewe huijui vyema hauwatendei haki na hawana kitu chochote cha kujifunza kutoka kwako kwenye hiyo legal English maana huijui.
Hivi ushawahi ona Judge anatoa hukumu kwenye maswali ya sheria halafu yeye hajasoma sheria? Hivi wewe utakuwa na uhakika na hukumu yake? Unahukumu vipi kwenye jambo ambalo hulijui kama siyo kiherehere ndugu yangu? Maana hata ukiambia tuelekeze liweje utaleta zako za plain English.
Halafu umekariri kwamba grammar zote ni sawa hata kwenye technical language, tunakuambia siyo sawa. Huwa nawaona wengi wenye viherehere wanakosoa hukumu za Majaji na mahakimu kwenye kitu ambacho grammatically kwenye legal English ni sahihi lakini utakuta mtu anakomaa.
Siwakatazi kukosoa ni Uhuru wenu lakini ni busara mkakosoa kwenye mambo ambayo mna uhakika mnayajua vyema ili hata mnaowakosoa wajifunze kutokana na ukosoaji wenu. Lakini huu ukosoaji wa kibubububu utawasaidia kupata cheap popularity tu bila matokeo chanya kwa jamii.
I rest my case!
Njoo na wewe kiinglish cha ain't ya...[emoji23][emoji23]Wow!
That ‘Shakespearean’ English is impressive teh teh teh!
Njoo na wewe kiinglish cha ain't ya...[emoji23][emoji23]
Amang'ana ghasurukile....!I ain’t mad at ya!
Kwa hiyo mnajua kiingereza!?