Nyerere atorokwa na Lule

[MkamaP]

Go to Kyaka, there's an old building probably a church on top of a hill that was shelled by Amin's forces. That's proof that he did invade our country. However, I still think the war was not just due to Amin's invasion. Nyerere wanted to reinstate his former ally, Obote. It's also said that there was unresolved issue of sharing assets of the defunct East Africa Community something that strained our relations with Kenya to the point of even closing the border with Kenya in 1977

I concur you, nonetheless, that shelling hold no water, for vivid-ing it. The shelling could have been staged, why not?

 

[Azipa]

I concur you, nonetheless, that shelling hold no water, for vivid-ing it. The shelling could have been staged, why not?

As this thread progresses who knows we might get an eyewitness account of whether Ugandan troops were sighted in Kagera

 

[Stoudemire]

Balaa tupu, sasa deni tunalowadai Uganda limefikia USD ngapi?

 

[JokaKuu]

How long was Lule detained by Nyerere? Was Nyerere not aware of the queen's visit before he decided to detain Lule? I would concur with this side of the story below

Azipa,

..the quote u provided indicates that Lule was under "house arrest" in D'Salaam.

..now, how did Lule end up in Tanzania? did he come to Tanzania voluntarily, or by force?

..how long was Lule under arrest, is something that we both have to find out.

..was Mwalimu aware of Queen's visit before he decided to detain Prof.Lule? most probably yes.

..from that the question becomes: why did Mwalimu detain Lule, and how long did he plan to detain him??

..the fact is, Waganda walikuwa wanaleta matatizo yao kwa Mwalimu, and he was dealing with them accordingly. Waganda wenyewe kwenye ile serikali yao ya mpito ndiyo waliokuwa wakija kuchongeana kwa Mwalimu.

..pia uelewe kwamba ile serikali ya mpito[ a two years affair before general elections] ilikuwa na FACTIONS mbalimbali ambazo zote zilikuwa zinataka kuchukua madaraka kamili ya Uganda.

cc Nguruvi3, Malafyale, MkamaP

 

[Nguruvi3]

Azipa,

..the quote u provided indicates that Lule was under "house arrest" in D'Salaam.

..now, how did Lule end up in Tanzania? did he come to Tanzania voluntarily, or by force?

..how long was Lule under arrest, is something that we both have to find out.

..was Mwalimu aware of Queen's visit before he decided to detain Prof.Lule? most probably yes.

..from that the question becomes: why did Mwalimu detain Lule, and how long did he plan to detain him??

..the fact is, Waganda walikuwa wanaleta matatizo yao kwa Mwalimu, and he was dealing with them accordingly. Waganda wenyewe kwenye ile serikali yao ya mpito ndiyo waliokuwa wakija kuchongeana kwa Mwalimu.

..pia uelewe kwamba ile serikali ya mpito[ a two years affair before general elections] ilikuwa na FACTIONS mbalimbali ambazo zote zilikuwa zinataka kuchukua madaraka kamili ya Uganda.

Mkuu Kuunganisha zile factions kwa mikutano ya Moshi ilikuwa kazi ngumu sana. Mwalimu alichokifanya ilikuwa ni kuepuka machafuko Uganda baada ya Amin kuondoka kama tunavyoshuhudia Iraq.

Kuna wakati Uganda ilikuwa inatawaliwa na marais kwa mwezi au miwili. Nawakumbuka akina Oyite, Paul Mwanga, Lukongwe Binaisa, Ukello n.k. hili linaonyesha factions zilivyokuwa zinafanyiziana.

Nakumbuka kauli moja ya mwalimu ilionyesha hawakuwa(Lule) katika good terms mwishoni.
Swali ni kuwa kulikuwa na 'family feud' gani! Walitofautiana nini.

Tunafahamu Obote alipopinduliwa tofauti yake na Mwalimu ilikuwa kulipa kisasi kwa kuua waganda wa makabila yaliyomuondoa madarakani. Hili la Lule sijui ilikuwa ni nini.

Kuhusu kuja kwa Lule inawezakana kabisa alikuja mwenyewe. Kama ulivyosema Waganda walikuwa wanakuja kwa mwalimu kila siku. Sasa haijulikani alikuja kweli na kweli alikuwa detained, nobody knows!

 

[Ritz]

Mimi binafsi naamini kabisa kuna mengi tu yanajulikana na wala si siri isipokuwa ni siri kwa Tanzania. Watanzania wengi bado tuna hofu zisizo na msingi kuwa kuelezea mambo haya ni kuvujisha "siri za serikali". Katika sheria yetu ya mambo ya declassification hakuna hata siri moja ambayo ilikuwa siri miaka ya sitini na sabini mwanzoni ambayo inatakiwa iwe siri. WAsomi wetu na waandishi wangetaka kupewa nyaraka mbalimbali zilizokuwa declassified wangedai hivyo kwa sababu siyo siri tena.

Bahati mbaya tunaogopa kujua siri.

Nakumbuka hii juzi tu nilipoandika jambo la ndani sana la JWTZ kuna watu mara moja wakaniona nimevujisha siri za jeshi! Na haikuwa hata kiduchu ya kitu ambacho kilikuwa kinaendelea!

Waandishi wachache sana ni wanahistoria labda kwa kuanzia ungeandika habari za Yusuf Kironde Lule kwa kirefu watu wajifunze.

Watanzania wana hamu ya kufahamu habari za kina Godfrey Binaisa, Milton Obote, Tito Okello walikuwa na mahusiano yepi na Nyerere.

Kuna habari tuliwahi kuzisikia kipindi cha nyuma kuwa Nyerere alipofariki Milton Obote hakuwahi kutoa hata salama za rambirambi ni kweli.

Cc: Kimbunga.

 

[Azipa]

Tunafahamu Obote alipopinduliwa tofauti yake na Mwalimu ilikuwa kulipa kisasi kwa kuua waganda wa makabila yaliyomuondoa madarakani. Hili la Lule sijui ilikuwa ni nini.

This could be one of the reasons and it reminds us of how Nyerere hated tribalism. I've read elsewhere it's said when Lule was being inaugurated he gave a speech in English and later went to a group of his fellow Baganda(a tribe) and spoke to them in their language which is Luganda. Lule told his tribesmen something to the effect "this is our turn". It's said that didn't go down well with Kawawa who was there. It was argued that Ugandans were supposed to use either English or Kiswahili. So Lule displayed tribalism despite not having a lot of support. It was Museveni and Obote who had a lot of support then.

Kuhusu kuja kwa Lule inawezakana kabisa alikuja mwenyewe. Kama ulivyosema Waganda walikuwa wanakuja kwa mwalimu kila siku. Sasa haijulikani alikuja kweli na kweli alikuwa detained, nobody knows!

Like I said I've been reading a lot lately, my sources might not be credible but if what I read is anything to go by Lule wasn't so dumb as to come to Nyerere for advice. In fact he was forcefully put on a military plane and taken to DSM. Binaisa....yes! He was a lawyer who had acquired his degree from King's College London but hadn't ... if you like... 'a calling to be president' it just happened fortuitously. He was hand picked by Museveni who was at the time a minister of defence when the ouster of Lule had just taken place. From New York Binaisa had gone to Kampala to lobby for a post of Permanent Representative to the UN. He is approached by Museveni saying the country needed a Muganda for president!!! Some other sources say he always had to consult Nyerere there was even a Tanzanian minister based in Kampala

 

[Nguruvi3]

Sasa tunaanza kuconnect dots za hii vita ya Kagera!, Kama Operation ilikuwa ni kwa Ulinzi wetu kwa nini tudai fidia?
Je Kwa nini Nyerere alitumia juhudi kubwa Kumrudisha Obote Madarakani?, Je haiwezekani Operation nzima ikatokana na "Ego" ya Nyerere kutaka Kumrudisha Obote Madarakani na si kwa kuvamiwa kwetu?.

Kama Nyerere alitumia mbinu za "Kisungura sungura" kumuondoa Yusuf Lule Madarakani, Je alishindwa vipi kutumia mbinu hizo hizo kumsingizia Amini Uvamizi?.

Ukweli siku moja utajulikana, Watu wengi walikufa kwa ajili ya ile vita, na siku moja those responsible will pay!

Tukiangalia nyuma kidogo, Idd Amin alishafanya ukorofi katika miaka ya 1973.
Alishambulia Mwanza na Kagera. Wakati huo ni miaka 2 au 3 tangu Obote apinduliwe.
Endapo lengo lilikuwa kumrudisha Obote kwa uchokozi Nyerere asingekubali usuluhishi na Haile Sellasie angeitumia nafasi hiyo kutekeleza azma yake.

Pili, wakati wa kuunda umoja wa Waganda Obote hakushiriki. Nchi ikatawali na marais zaidi ya 4 kwa kipindi kifupi sana.Ilipotokea fursa ya uchaguzi Obote akarudi. Inaweza kuwa ni 'opportunity presented itself before him' au ni calculate move, vyovyote iwavyo Obote ni matokeo ya , sidhani kuwa ni sababu.

Tatu, kama lengo lingekuwa kumrudisha Obote basi Tanzania isingekaa pembeni wakati anaondolewa.
Na hata alipoondolewa bado hakuruhusiwa kurudi nchini.

Nne, miaka ya 1977 pressure ilikuwa kubwa sana ndani na nje ya Uganda. Amin alifahamu kuwa uwezekano wa yeye kuendelea kutawala ulikuwa mashakani. Endapo madai yangekuwa ni uchokozi basi angedai hivyo. Alichokifanya ni kudai eneo la Kagera ni sehemu ya nchi yake. Mtu anayechokozwa asingeleta madai hayo, pengine angekuwa mtu wa kushambulia maeneo muhimu ya nchi yetu kama ilivyokuwa mwaka 1973.

Tunaweza kuwa na maoni tofauti kuhusu hili, kitu cha muhimu tusiongozwe na hisia zetu au kujenga hisia kwa namna ambayo haiwezi kuleta logic. Ukweli kuwa Amin alivamia nchi yetu hauwezi kupata uhalali kwasababu nyingine.

 

[Gamba la Nyoka]

Tukiangalia nyuma kidogo, Idd Amin alishafanya ukorofi katika miaka ya 1973.
Alishambulia Mwanza na Kagera. Wakati huo ni miaka 2 au 3 tangu Obote apinduliwe.
Endapo lengo lilikuwa kumrudisha Obote kwa uchokozi Nyerere asingekubali usuluhishi na Haile Sellasie angeitumia nafasi hiyo kutekeleza azma yake.

Pili, wakati wa kuunda umoja wa Waganda Obote hakushiriki. Nchi ikatawali na marais zaidi ya 4 kwa kipindi kifupi sana.Ilipotokea fursa ya uchaguzi Obote akarudi. Inaweza kuwa ni 'opportunity presented itself before him' au ni calculate move, vyovyote iwavyo Obote ni matokeo ya , sidhani kuwa ni sababu.

Tatu, kama lengo lingekuwa kumrudisha Obote basi Tanzania isingekaa pembeni wakati anaondolewa.
Na hata alipoondolewa bado hakuruhusiwa kurudi nchini.

Nne, miaka ya 1977 pressure ilikuwa kubwa sana ndani na nje ya Uganda. Amin alifahamu kuwa uwezekano wa yeye kuendelea kutawala ulikuwa mashakani. Endapo madai yangekuwa ni uchokozi basi angedai hivyo. Alichokifanya ni kudai eneo la Kagera ni sehemu ya nchi yake. Mtu anayechokozwa asingeleta madai hayo, pengine angekuwa mtu wa kushambulia maeneo muhimu ya nchi yetu kama ilivyokuwa mwaka 1973.

Tunaweza kuwa na maoni tofauti kuhusu hili, kitu cha muhimu tusiongozwe na hisia zetu au kujenga hisia kwa namna ambayo haiwezi kuleta logic. Ukweli kuwa Amin alivamia nchi yetu hauwezi kupata uhalali kwasababu nyingine.

NI DHAHIRI MAPAMBANO YA MWAKA 1973 DHIDI YA AMINI ILIKUWA NI MWANZO TU WA MKAKATI WA KUMPROVOKE AMINI NA KUIANDAA JAMII YA KITANZANIA KISAIKOLOJIA JUU YA KUWEPO "ADUI".

TULIKUBALI MASULUHISHO YA SOMALIA KWA SABABU KIJESHI HATUKUWA VIZURI SANA KUMPIGA AMINI NA KUMTOA MOJA KWA MOJA MADARAKANI KWA WAKATI HUO.
PROVOCATIONS ZILIFANYWA BAADA YA KUJIANDAA KWA MUDA MREFU NA KUHAKIKISHA TUKO VIZURI ZAIDI KIJESHI.

NA TULICHAGUA 1978 KWA SABABU AMINI ALIKUWA AMEKWISHA KUWA WEAKENED INTERNALLY NA INTERNATIONALLY (mgogoro wake na Waisrael, Wahindi, Waingereza, etc)

BAHATI MBAYA SANA AMINI ALIINGIA KATIKA MITEGO YA HIZI PROVOCATIONS, NA VYOMBO VYOTE VYA HABARI VYA MAGHARIBI WAKATI HUO BBC WALIKUWA SIYO SYMPATHETIC KWA REGIME YAKE.

Ushahidi wa Nyerere kuwa na mkakati wa kumtaka Obote arudi Madarakani ni huu katika kiportion cha Post namba 13:

He said; "we cannot have Obote until after elections, two years down." So, Nyerere said; "you must take him back. You could take him as Vice President or minister of foreign affairs." Obote said, "I will not accept."

The first person to object was Otema Alimadi. He said; "no, for me I am not relinquishing my office. We agreed that this government runs for two years and I am going to remain foreign minister, I am not accepting."

Obote said, "no problem, I wasn't going to accept to be foreign minister. You cannot have been president and then you accept to become foreign minister. I wasn't going to accept anyway. But I don't mind being Vice President."

We all saw what could have happened if we had accepted him to come as vice president. Amin remember was still on the outskirts, many of the UNLA soldiers were still around the country.

What we visualized was that within a short time, less than a month, Lule would be shot by the rebels and Obote would assume the presidency. That is what we could see.

We refused. Our agreement was that there would be no change of government formed by the UNLF until after two years. Obote needed to wait until after two years so that he would stand and may be get elected.

So Nyerere was not happy. Lule said; "by the way, we were supposed to be here for only two hours. Now this is the second day and we feel that we must go home to report to our people. Tonight we are going back when we finish this meeting."

Nyerere and Obote were very annoyed. They said, "you cannot go until we have resolved these matters." Lule said; "well you can arrest us, but we are going."

Then Nyerere said; "you go and consult." He had been addressing him as "President" but when he got annoyed he said; "Lule, go back and consult with your people and I must know by next Saturday what decision you have reached about Obote. Come and report to me this time not at Mwanza but in Dar es Salaam."
The meeting ended there. These people were very cool, they accompanied us to the airport and we came back.

Of course the following Saturday Lule went to Dar es Salaam and reported that the Ugandan population, all the leading personalities, had said that there is no way Obote could come through the backdoor. He has to face elections.

That is when Nyerere, the Gang of Four and others who were anti-Lule, planned to remove him from office. I had gone to Kabale. But we had agreed that we would meet, I think on a Tuesday.

 

[LILONGO]

War reparations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bullet]

mzee butiku was not only a close aide to nyerere, he was also one of the good early spies we had..., sasa ili upate info kutoka kwake,, Jokakuu, you will really need to have supernatural skills to convince him maana mambo mengine yaliyofanywa kipindi kile ni ya kikatili, as they say, SOMETHINGS ARE BETTER GONE UNTOLD!!!

Hivi Mzee Butiku hakuwa na blood relationship na mwalimu kweli? Huwa naona kama wanakufanana fulani usoni, hasa structure ya ndevu za juu ya mdomo (moustache)!!!

 

[bullet]

Tukiangalia nyuma kidogo, Idd Amin alishafanya ukorofi katika miaka ya 1973.
Alishambulia Mwanza na Kagera. Wakati huo ni miaka 2 au 3 tangu Obote apinduliwe.
Endapo lengo lilikuwa kumrudisha Obote kwa uchokozi Nyerere asingekubali usuluhishi na Haile Sellasie angeitumia nafasi hiyo kutekeleza azma yake.

Pili, wakati wa kuunda umoja wa Waganda Obote hakushiriki. Nchi ikatawali na marais zaidi ya 4 kwa kipindi kifupi sana.Ilipotokea fursa ya uchaguzi Obote akarudi. Inaweza kuwa ni 'opportunity presented itself before him' au ni calculate move, vyovyote iwavyo Obote ni matokeo ya , sidhani kuwa ni sababu.

Tatu, kama lengo lingekuwa kumrudisha Obote basi Tanzania isingekaa pembeni wakati anaondolewa.
Na hata alipoondolewa bado hakuruhusiwa kurudi nchini.

Nne, miaka ya 1977 pressure ilikuwa kubwa sana ndani na nje ya Uganda. Amin alifahamu kuwa uwezekano wa yeye kuendelea kutawala ulikuwa mashakani. Endapo madai yangekuwa ni uchokozi basi angedai hivyo. Alichokifanya ni kudai eneo la Kagera ni sehemu ya nchi yake. Mtu anayechokozwa asingeleta madai hayo, pengine angekuwa mtu wa kushambulia maeneo muhimu ya nchi yetu kama ilivyokuwa mwaka 1973.

Tunaweza kuwa na maoni tofauti kuhusu hili, kitu cha muhimu tusiongozwe na hisia zetu au kujenga hisia kwa namna ambayo haiwezi kuleta logic. Ukweli kuwa Amin alivamia nchi yetu hauwezi kupata uhalali kwasababu nyingine.

Hapo kwenye blue si kwamba yawezekana Obote alitoswa na Tanzania kwa sababu by the time anaondolewa 1985, rafiki yake (Mwalimu) nae ndio alikuwa anastep as a president wa Tanzania? ?

 

[JokaKuu]

Azipa, Nguruvi3,

..Uganda National Liberation Front[UNLF] government iliundwa Moshi na factions mbalimbali za Waganda.

..Prof.Yusuf Kironde Lule was a elected to lead UNLF because he did not have a faction of his own.

..now, once in office, he tried to consolidate his power by invoking the Uganda's 1968 constitution, which was contrary to what was agreed in Moshi, Tanzania.

..Moshi accord stipulated that all matters related to the governing of the country would go thru' UNLF council. Lule started making decision without consulting the council.

..The VOTE OF CONFIDENCE was called by the council and Prof.Lule lost 18 vs 14 votes. Mwalimu Nyerere sided with the 18 who voted Prof.Lule out.

..After that it was agreed that Prof.Lule would go the radio and announce that he was voluntarily leaving the goverment/UNLF. He did not do that, instead he went on to say that he has been forcibly removed.

..Sasa baada ya hapo kukawa na maandamano Uganda, na ninaamini that is what led to his being exiled to Tanzania where he was put under house arrest.

NB:

..factions mbalimbali zilianza ku-rectruit WANAJESHI on tribal basis. The two notorious culprits on this were Yoweri Museveni and Oyite Ojok.

..Geofrey Binaisa who was succeeded Prof.Lule was also removed by the UNLF Council when he tried to fire Oyite Ojok from the army.

..Oyite Ojok alikuwa mtu wa Obote[UPC] ktk UNLF.

 

[Azipa]

Mkuu Nguruvi there are suggestions that Britain helped Amin to come to power in 1971. And like others have said he then fell out of favor. So Britain again approached Nyerere to come up with Amin's ouster plan but Britain didn't want Obote back in power. The way I see it the Moshi conference was....

 

[Azipa]

... Moshi conference was geared to pave way for the return of Obote. They passed a constitution that would weaken the president. Mkuu JokaKuu has explained that already, Obote wasn't welcome there but had a strong representation. You cn imagine what was passed their was goin to work in Obote's favor

 

[Azipa]

...another thing worth noting Tanzania didn't want to be seen as a country that overthrew Amin. One Ugandan journalist who had been living in Dar as a refuguee said Mkapa had approached him to say that when they reach Kampala Tanzania must not be seen as spearheading

 

[Moshe Dayan]

NI DHAHIRI MAPAMBANO YA MWAKA 1973 DHIDI YA AMINI ILIKUWA NI MWANZO TU WA MKAKATI WA KUMPROVOKE AMINI NA KUIANDAA JAMII YA KITANZANIA KISAIKOLOJIA JUU YA KUWEPO "ADUI".

TULIKUBALI MASULUHISHO YA SOMALIA KWA SABABU KIJESHI HATUKUWA VIZURI SANA KUMPIGA AMINI NA KUMTOA MOJA KWA MOJA MADARAKANI KWA WAKATI HUO.
PROVOCATIONS ZILIFANYWA BAADA YA KUJIANDAA KWA MUDA MREFU NA KUHAKIKISHA TUKO VIZURI ZAIDI KIJESHI.

NA TULICHAGUA 1978 KWA SABABU AMINI ALIKUWA AMEKWISHA KUWA WEAKENED INTERNALLY NA INTERNATIONALLY (mgogoro wake na Waisrael, Wahindi, Waingereza, etc)

BAHATI MBAYA SANA AMINI ALIINGIA KATIKA MITEGO YA HIZI PROVOCATIONS, NA VYOMBO VYOTE VYA HABARI VYA MAGHARIBI WAKATI HUO BBC WALIKUWA SIYO SYMPATHETIC KWA REGIME YAKE.

Ushahidi wa Nyerere kuwa na mkakati wa kumtaka Obote arudi Madarakani ni huu katika kiportion cha Post namba 13:

natofautiana na wewe comrade hapo kwenye kuandaliwa kisaikolojia na kutokua tayari kijeshi, since 1972-73, amin alianza chokochoko kwa kudai seheme ya eneo la kagera lilikua ni la Uganda na kulikua na border disputes nyingi tu, ila full escalation ya aggression ya amin ilikua 1978 na intelligence ilishapata taarifa za next move ya amin ndio maana nchi iliweza kujitayarisha kivita ndani ya miezi sita ikiwa ni pamoja na kuagiza zana za kisasa kabisa(by then)...., kumbuka brigade ya kaskazini iliyopo Tabora iliimarishwa taratibu over years, ila mobilization ya silaha na wapiganaji kutoka brigade nyingine ilifanywa kwa miezi sita,,,,, mind you pia kwa kipindi kile brigade iliyokua tayari tayari na yenye nguvu kubwa ilikua 401 songea

 

[Moshe Dayan]

I concur you, nonetheless, that shelling hold no water, for vivid-ing it. The shelling could have been staged, why not?

comrade, amin was the aggressor

 

[Snipper]

natofautiana na wewe comrade hapo kwenye kuandaliwa kisaikolojia na kutokua tayari kijeshi, since 1972-73, amin alianza chokochoko kwa kudai seheme ya eneo la kagera lilikua ni la Uganda na kulikua na border disputes nyingi tu, ila full escalation ya aggression ya amin ilikua 1978 na intelligence ilishapata taarifa za next move ya amin ndio maana nchi iliweza kujitayarisha kivita ndani ya miezi sita ikiwa ni pamoja na kuagiza zana za kisasa kabisa(by then)...., kumbuka brigade ya kaskazini iliyopo Tabora iliimarishwa taratibu over years, ila mobilization ya silaha na wapiganaji kutoka brigade nyingine ilifanywa kwa miezi sita,,,,, mind you pia kwa kipindi kile brigade iliyokua tayari tayari na yenye nguvu kubwa ilikua 401 songea

we salute you Moshe Dayan, endelea kutumwagia hzo nondo maana naamini ni wengi wanaofaidika kwa haya masomo yako. Ila nasikitika kuwa hujatuweka wazi nini kilifuata baada ya mkutano wa Mwalimu na delegation ya Uganda pale Mwanza hotel...Please have mercy! Tupe info zaidi.

 

[mkush]

hapa ndio huwa naikubali jf,sifa kuu ya jf ni kama yule mtoto aliyesema kweli juu ya mfalme.wenye madini zaidi tililikeni jamani maana kama alivyosema mwanakijiji haya mambo kwa wenzetu si siri bali ni sisi tumefukia kichwa mchangani hatutaki kuujua ukweli.