President Kibaki successfully lobbied for Ocampo 4 to face trial in Arusha

[Rev. Damasus Mkenda]

I heard the Minister for Foreign Affairs Hon. Bernard Membe saying this morning that they want approval of ICC Arusha so that even Wazungu cases can be practised there, my question is Arusha, the Hague or the Court with the same Standards??? I think the system is the same what we need is to have many centres as much as we can in Africa, Asia, Europe, America and wherever.

 

[Lonestriker]

The Ocampo's four need not to prove their innocence that's the work of the prosecutor.After watching the ICC's proceedings then I knew why USA absolutely rejects it.It's an inferior court,a European tentacle on Africa,a quasi-court to fix some people,more like the one formed to fix German after the world war one.The accussed lawyers did everything to cast doubts in the case while the prosecutors did nothing to dispel our doubts.I thought the threshold were high in a 'world class court'.

 

[Jobo]

NYie mnaota mchana and so is your so called leaders! I listened to Membe this morning and I was shocked when he said "Mahakama hii Tanzania tunaishabikia kweli"! Then I realised that Tanzania hatuna wajuvi wa masuala ya Kimataifa. Hivi kweli kale ka mahakama ka Arusha kanakosikiliza masuala ya kuvunjwa kwa treaty kanaweza kusikiliza International Crimes cases? Ubadili Treaty ili isemeje? Kwamba sasa Mahakama Ya Africa Mashariki ni Branch ya Africa ya ICC? East Africa mna mandate hiyo? Ngoja niishie hapa ili nisije nikaharibu kwa kuwatukana Marais na Mawaziri wa Africa Mashariki! Nadhani kuna mtu kawaroga halafu akafa bila kuwazindua! Ngoja nikasubiri pira ili nijipongeze, it is the easiest scapegoat from the dubness of our leaders!

 

[Jobo]

NYie mnaota mchana and so is your so called leaders! I listened to Membe this morning and I was shocked when he said "Mahakama hii Tanzania tunaishabikia kweli"! Then I realised that Tanzania hatuna wajuvi wa masuala ya Kimataifa. Hivi kweli kale ka mahakama ka Arusha kanakosikiliza masuala ya kuvunjwa kwa treaty kanaweza kusikiliza International Crimes cases? Ubadili Treaty ili isemeje? Kwamba sasa Mahakama Ya Africa Mashariki ni Branch ya Africa ya ICC? East Africa mna mandate hiyo? Ngoja niishie hapa ili nisije nikaharibu kwa kuwatukana Marais na Mawaziri wa Africa Mashariki! Nadhani kuna mtu kawaroga halafu akafa bila kuwazindua! Ngoja nikasubiri mpira ili nijipongeze, it is the easiest scapegoat from the dumbness of our leaders!

 

[Ab-Titchaz]

Mahakama za Tanzania zimetoa haki kwa wananchi tangu zilipoanzishwa. I personally know a lot of killers that received capital punishment for example. Sasa hiyo siyo justice? On the other hand, kama wananchi wanajua kuwa mahakama zao hazitoi haki, what's the solution? Running to the ICC?
I can understand somalia, Darfur,Liberia.Ila Kenya ina functioning government na ina mahakama zake kwanini hawa try hao kina Uhuru? Just trying and see what kind of judgement they will receive. They didn't even try.
Kuhusu mimi kufamiliarize with ICC, I'm familiar with na naiona haina maana yeyote.
Anywhere in this world, the judiciary is appointed by the Executive. May be you are the one who needs to familiarize yourself with these things.

kobello,

Nilipokuambia familiarise yourself na the workings of the ICC nilitaka uangalie how the Kenyan case
got there. Bunge la Kenya lilipiga kura to take the cases there through the underworkings of William
Ruto na Uhuru Kenyatta....wakidhania it would take years before the cases were adjudicated. There are
records to show this. Kwa hivyo maji walioyoyazoa sasa sharti wayakoge wenyewe!

Kisha hio hoja ya kua Judiciary inakua appointed na Executive, nilichokusudia kusema ni kua
those appointments have to be vetted by a bi-partisan parliamentary committee in order for them
to have any semblance of fairness. Hapa Marekani, Judges are elected by the people and then
appointed by the President/Attorney General in various capacities. If the Executive has a free hand in
appointing Judges then they (Judges) will definitely play to the tune of the piper. Hio ndio michezo
iliopo Africa.

Ab-Titchaz.

 

[Kobello]

kobello,

Nilipokuambia familiarise yourself na the workings of the ICC nilitaka uangalie how the Kenyan case
got there. Bunge la Kenya lilipiga kura to take the cases there through the underworkings of William
Ruto na Uhuru Kenyatta....wakidhania it would take years before the cases were adjudicated. There are
records to show this. Kwa hivyo maji walioyoyazoa sasa sharti wayakoge wenyewe!

Kisha hio hoja ya kua Judiciary inakua appointed na Executive, nilichokusudia kusema ni kua
those appointments have to be vetted by a bi-partisan parliamentary committee in order for them
to have any semblance of fairness. Hapa Marekani, Judges are elected by the people and then
appointed by the President/Attorney General in various capacities. If the Executive has a free hand in
appointing Judges then they (Judges) will definitely play to the tune of the piper. Hio ndio michezo
iliopo Africa.

Ab-Titchaz.

I do understand that. However, the jurisdiction and admissibility of cases to the ICC is based totally on gravity which is the most weird way of administering justice. Wether it's the Kenyan Parliament that voted for it or not, still the legitimacy of ICC based on those factors is very questionable.If let's say Barick gold poisoned thousands of Tanzanians by polluting their water sources, can they (The corporation I mean) be sued? Do ICC has the jurisdiction, or is the case admissible? ... NO.

What about the bombings that Iraq civilians received from US? What about things like collective casuality or collateral damages done in Yemen by drones, or in Pakistan or what about Gaza, the largest prison after North Korea? C'mon! you know this ICC is a bunch of bologna!

Speaking of US, Sotomayor, though went through congress, was still appointed by Obama and even if the repubs had a majority, that position was to be filled by the so-called pied piper!!(Obama) appointee. You know this mayn.

 

[Keil]

kobello,

Nilipokuambia familiarise yourself na the workings of the ICC nilitaka uangalie how the Kenyan case
got there. Bunge la Kenya lilipiga kura to take the cases there through the underworkings of William
Ruto na Uhuru Kenyatta....wakidhania it would take years before the cases were adjudicated. There are
records to show this. Kwa hivyo maji walioyoyazoa sasa sharti wayakoge wenyewe!

Kisha hio hoja ya kua Judiciary inakua appointed na Executive, nilichokusudia kusema ni kua
those appointments have to be vetted by a bi-partisan parliamentary committee in order for them
to have any semblance of fairness. Hapa Marekani, Judges are elected by the people and then
appointed by the President/Attorney General in various capacities. If the Executive has a free hand in
appointing Judges then they (Judges) will definitely play to the tune of the piper. Hio ndio michezo
iliopo Africa.

Ab-Titchaz.

Mkuu, hiyo bold hapo ndio tatizo letu na ndio maana katika nchi nyingi za Afrika Idara ya Mahakama imekuwa ikitumika kuhalalisha upindishaji wa sheria.

Uchaguzi ya mwisho hapo Kenya, wote tuliona Mzee Kibaki akiapishwa kizani na tena mtoa kiapo ni Jaji Mkuu. Kama ni Jaji ambaye anafuata haki, sheria na taratibu lazima angehoji, why chap chap?

Juzi, Jaji Mkuu wa Malawi alikuwa tayari kubaka katiba ya nchi ili kumzuwia Joyce Banda asiwe Rais, na hiyo ilikuwa ni katika kutekeleza matakwa ya chama tawala (waliompa ulaji).

Ukweli ni kwamba mamlaka inayohusika na uteuzi, huwa inateua majaji ambao wanaweza kucheza tune ambayo serikali iliyo madarakani inataka. Ndiyo maana Jaji Mkuu wa Malawi akishirikiana na baadhi ya Majaji alikuwa tayari kupindisha sheria na hata kuchelewesha uapishwaji wa Joyce Banda kwa kisingizio cha kusahau "vazi la mamlaka ya kuapishia". Wakati mwingine Mahakama za Afrika zinajitia doa/dosari kupitia watendaji wake ambao wako tayari kupindisha sheria waziwazi.

Chief Justice was involved in

 

[Bantugbro]

Bado unaishi kwenye ujima, huyo Ocampo amemaliza muda wake kwenye hiyo mahakama siku nyingi zilizopita

Hivi hapo juzi alienda Libya kwa Capacity gani? hebu tazama hapa chini:

[h=1]ICC prosecutor Moreno-Ocampo in Libya to follow up on case of Gadhafi’s son[/h]

By Associated Press, Published: April 18



TRIPOLI, Libya — The International Criminal Court’s chief prosecutor has arrived in the Libyan capital to follow up on the case of Moammar Gadhafi’s captured son Seif al-Islam.
The Hague-based court is locked in a legal tug-of-war with Libya’s ruling National Transitional Council over who should try Seif al-Islam, who was captured last year following the ouster and death of his father.




Luis Moreno-Ocampo told The Associated Press at Tripoli’s airport on Wednesday he would also travel to the coastal city of Misrata to investigate allegations of abuse in detention facilities run by militiamen who fought Gadhafi’s forces.
“There’s torture, extrajudicial executions, rape of both men and women,” U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said in January.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Source:
ICC prosecutor Moreno-Ocampo in Libya to follow up on case of Gadhafi’s son - The Washington Post

 

[Bantugbro]

NYie mnaota mchana and so is your so called leaders! I listened to Membe this morning and I was shocked when he said "Mahakama hii Tanzania tunaishabikia kweli"! Then I realised that Tanzania hatuna wajuvi wa masuala ya Kimataifa. Hivi kweli kale ka mahakama ka Arusha kanakosikiliza masuala ya kuvunjwa kwa treaty kanaweza kusikiliza International Crimes cases? Ubadili Treaty ili isemeje? Kwamba sasa Mahakama Ya Africa Mashariki ni Branch ya Africa ya ICC? East Africa mna mandate hiyo? Ngoja niishie hapa ili nisije nikaharibu kwa kuwatukana Marais na Mawaziri wa Africa Mashariki! Nadhani kuna mtu kawaroga halafu akafa bila kuwazindua! Ngoja nikasubiri pira ili nijipongeze, it is the easiest scapegoat from the dubness of our leaders!

Mkuu Arusha kuna mahakama ya kimataifa (kwa ajili ya genocide ya Rwanda) similar to that of the Hague. Tatizo ni kuwa hawa akina Kibaki nadhani wanataka mahakama tofauti ndio ishughulikie hilo jambo.

 

[mageuzi1992]

Hivi hii mahakama ya kimataifa ni kwa viongozi wa africa tu???

 

[busara ya mzee]

Why not the hague...the hague is a better place for the 4:smile-big:

 

[Bukyanagandi]

Tusipo angalia Arusha yetu itageuzwa chaka la majambazi:smile-big:

Mkuu hii kali, hivi EALA ina mamlaka gani ya kulazimisha The Hague kuhamishia kesi ya the Ocampo4 Arusha, waswahili usema mfa maji aishii kutapatapa! Title yenyewe wala ailandani na anacho kusudia kuzungumza! Ameiandika kwa maksudi fulani anafikili Ocampo akisoma resolution ya EALA basi atakua petrified na kuamua kuhamishia kesi yao Arusha. Mimi namshauri Mzee Kibaki asijivunjie heshima kwa kutumia hila za kumsaidia rafiki yake, anataka kuwatumia viongozi wenzake wa EA katika njama zake hizo akifikili Ocampo ataheshimu mahamuzi ya walio wengi, na inashangaza sana kuona viongozi wetu wanaigizwa kwenye mkenge na Mzee huyu. Kwa bahati nzuri Mr. Ocampo is light years ahead of them, there is no way these guys gonna escape landing in a SLAMMER na hii itakua ni The Hague siyo Arusha, Hon Mwai the world is WATCHING.

 

[bagamoyo]

The EA law society warn against bid to move Hague cases , Read more http://www.nation.co.ke/News/politi...+cases+/-/1064/1398344/-/s5o2sgz/-/index.html

 

[Hute]

wakenya ni wajinga sana, huwa nawaangalia halafu napiga makofi tu. walishapoteza muda wao wa mwaka na zaidi opportunity ya kuwaprosecute hapa Nairobi, inaonekana kenya hakuna wanasheria wa sheria za kimataifa, kwasababu hii ni rahisi sana kuelewa. principle of complementarity ya Rome statute, art.17 iko wazi mno, sasa hawa wenzetu sijui tuwaeleweje....yaani wakenya wajinga mno.

 

[Kabaridi]

Maamuzi ya huyu Mzee yana busara. Wengi waafrika vipofu tunadanganywa na ahadi misaada kutoka ulaya na kuchekeshewa fedha katika workshop/seminar. Kwanza ICC/uingereza inaegemea kuwafungulia mashtaka nchi za Kiafrika. Ni kama chombo cha kutishia ikitumia sheria. Ndio wamerikani walipoona kuwa lengo lao kuu ilikuwa kujaribu kutikisa siasa za nchi huru, wakawatema na wao sio signatories tena. Haihusiki ku-apprehend waliofanya makosa ya kimbari, bali ni kujaribu kuingilia/kuinfluence siasa za Nchi Huru.

 

[timbilimu]

Watanzania tutafaidika kiuchumi kuhamishia kesi Arusha badala ya kufanyika the Hague!

 

[Kibukuasili]

Hawa jamaa hata kama walifanya makosa ya namna gani, why should they be tried kwa wazungu? Hakuna majaji kenya?
Mzee Kenyatta atakua analia kaburini kwake. Kazi yote aliyofanya kutafuta uhuru wa kenya imekua bure tu!
Hata kesi ikiamishiwa arusha, to me it is still meaningless. Kenya kuna sheria na wasimamiaji wa sheria wapo, na jela zipo. Why outside kenya?

 

[BabuK]

The Activists groups and Law Association are against this more as highlighted in this article.....
quote:

"ICC trials can't be transferred, rights activists tell Kibaki".... and this is WHY???

​

William Ruto (top left), Joshua arap Sang (bottom left) Uhuru Kenyatta (centre) and Francis Muthaura (right). Photo/FILE By BERNARD NAMUNANE bnamunane@ke.nationmedia.com AND MIKE MWANIKI mmwaniki@ke.nationmedia.com
Posted Monday, April 30 2012 at 22:30
Human rights activists on Monday warned that the regional court in Arusha had no capacity to try the Ocampo Four.



Law Society of Kenya (LSK) chairman Erick Mutua said the push to refer the cases from The Hague was in bad faith and questioned the preparedness of the East African Court of Justice (EACJ) to hear the cases.

"Whereas the LSK welcomes the move to extend the jurisdiction of the EACJ to include criminal jurisdiction, the fact that this is done to support the proposition to refer the ICC cases to the Arusha Court is in bad faith. The LSK is opposed to the transfer of the said cases from The Hague," he said in Nairobi.

Mr Mutua said the Rome Statute that established the ICC had no provision for transfer of cases before it to another court outside its jurisdiction.

Justice for victims

"Under international law where there is failure by a state to exercise its criminal jurisdiction over those responsible for international crimes or where the state is incapable of doing so, the appropriate forum is the ICC under the Rome Statute or an ad hoc tribunal to be established by the United Nations. The East African Court of Justice is not any of that," he said.

The Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR) said the East African Legislative Assembly (EALA) or the African Union could not challenge the admissibility of the cases at The Hague since they are not parties to the Rome Statute.

"The government should realise that states cannot ask the ICC to ‘transfer' a case to a particular judicial body or institution" said KNCHR commissioner Lawrence Mute at a media briefing in Nairobi.
He warned the decision was not in the best interests of the victims of the 2007/8 election violence that killed 1,133 people and displaced 650,000 others.

Lawyers say that President Kibaki's latest attempt to stop ICC cases is in vain, pointing out that the mandate, the set-up and the funding of the EACJ makes it difficult for the Arusha Court to try the cases.

Expanded mandate

"It (the campaign) cannot succeed. Even if it were to succeed, it will take at least two years because of the many things that are required. It is basically an impracticability," said one of the experts who could not be named as he work with the government and the ICC.

Another lawyer said member states would have to invest heavily in the Arusha Court to convince the international community that victims of the post election violence would get justice.

"The court has no prosecutor and the witness protection unit has not even been conceptualised. The practical things that are needed to try crimes against humanity are not there. How do you then expect this to be the option to The Hague?" he posed.

Last week, President Kibaki chaired the EAC heads of State summit which passed a resolution to expand the mandate of the Arusha court to include criminal jurisdiction.

Previously, the court was mandated to try crimes related to human rights.

Earlier, the EALA had passed a motion in support of the transfer of the cases from The Hague.

​

 

[Kibona]

A kenyan who killed/perpetuated killings of Kenyans should be tried by Kenyans.
Don't you guys have judiciary? If you do, then why the hell can't you use your own judicial system?
Someone plz explain this stupidity to me.[/ Kama hutaki wengine wakufanyie, ulitakiwa upinge sana nchi yako kusaini mkataba wa kuanzisha ICC kama zilivyofanya baadhi ya nchi. Lakini kama nchi yako ilisaini kuanzisha ICC basi ICC ni yako pia, maana huwezi ukakubali kuanzisha mahakama halafu kwenye utekelezaji uipinge.

 

[Kibona]

Hawa jamaa hata kama walifanya makosa ya namna gani, why should they be tried kwa wazungu? Hakuna majaji kenya?
Mzee Kenyatta atakua analia kaburini kwake. Kazi yote aliyofanya kutafuta uhuru wa kenya imekua bure tu!
Hata kesi ikiamishiwa arusha, to me it is still meaningless. Kenya kuna sheria na wasimamiaji wa sheria wapo, na jela zipo. Why outside kenya?

Tatizo sio wazungu, tatizo ni kwamba nchi zetu zilisaini kuanzisha mahakama pamoja na wazungu. Sasa kwanini kwenye utekelezaji ndio muanze kuhoji habari ya wazungu. Hata hivyo sioni hoja hapo maana kama mwafrika hatakiwi kuhukumiwa na mzungu kwasababu ya uzungu wake basi pia si halali Mnyakyusa kuhukumiwa na mchaga au kabila lingine lolote na pia mchaga hatakiwi kuhukumiwa na mnyakyusa au kabila lolote lile.