Uchochezi wa Mohamed Said na dhihaka kwa Wapigania Uhuru wa Tanganyika na Zanzibar

Mwanamkiwa said:

Unajua mtu aliyeandika hii topic kwa ajili ya kumchallenge Mohammed Said anashindwa kuelewa kuwa kila nchi ina matatizo yake, na mfumo kristo siyo product ya Nyerere per say, yeye alikuwa ni implementer hapa Bongo tu. Muslims are mistreated all over the world, in many different ways, through being called terrorists, through being denied basic human rights by occupations from other countries, etc. Thus, the results of maltreatments of Muslims in other parts of the world will be connected to those responsible in those countries, so you can't go on and illogically say Nyerere was not in Somalia, why does it have problems. You can decide to ask who was the Nyerere of Somalia? it can be another countr, religion and so on.

Unajua wasomi wa jamii forum wanashindwa kuwa impartial in their examination of many of the arguments posted here. We fail to use evidence to find conclusions but we make conclusions and force evidence to support it. We also fail to even closely examine our opponents claims before challenging them.

Kwa mfano swali hili:
" Ulijuaje kuwa wazee hao walipigania uhuru ilihali hawapo katika historia stahiki ya nchi hii?" I mean if you read the introductory pages of Mohammed Said's book, you should have seen the answer to this question articulated in a clear, elegant structure. I am quite impressed by brother Mohammed for taking the time to answer such questions. I would have just told the asker to go and read the book more closely, because it looks like he did not.

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It is about time Muslims stopped seeing themselves as victims. They should pull themselves by their bootstraps. Mohamed anatuambia kuwa utawala wa ukoloni uliwabagua waislamu. Well enough. Nyerere alilitambua hilo akataifisha shule za misheni ili kupunguza pengo la elimu kati ya waislamu na wakristo. Hilo Mohamed ameshindwa ku acknowledge. Sijasikia popote pale waislamu wamejenga health facilities. Sijasikia wameshindana na wakristo kujenga shule za msingi, sekondari etc. etc. Badala yake Mohamed anatusimulia mambo ya EAMWS kana kwamba taasisi hiyo ilikuwa na mipango yeyote ya kueneza shule za primary na sekondari Tanzania nzima. Walitaka kujenga chuo cha waislamu lakini wakati huo huo wakaingilia siasa za TANU. Wakatimuliwa nchini. Kuna simulizi nyingi tu hapa JF zinazoonyesha kuwa waislamu wanahiji ku step up to the plate instead of just playing the blame game. Kilwa na Lindi ni mifano tosha.

Wanajavi,
Kuna vitu viwili vya kufahamu. Kwanza kuna kusoma na pili kusoma na kuelewa.
Kila mtu anaweza kusoma lakini si lazima eelewe jambo linalopelekea mtu kuji-contradict.

Kwa habari ifuatayo inaweza kuonekana ina ukweli sana lakini ukiisoma hasa kwa watu walioishi nyakati fulani za matukio au wanaojishughulisha kuelewa utaona mambo mengi sana ya kutunga, kuzusha na hata kupotosha.
Tuiangalie kidogo habari hii

Ritz;5762947]Development and Religion in TanzaniaTHE CATHOLIC CHURCH MOVEMENT
This is clear testimony indicated that Nyerere ruled his country for the betterment of clandestine Catholic Church Movement (CCM)

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Hapa anataka kuonyesha kuwa CCM ni chama cha kanisa. Fair enough!
Je, kiliongozwaje na Al Haji Mwinyi na JM Kikwete! Je, iliposemwa waislam walinong'oneza misikitini waichague CCM kufanya hivyo si kuchagua chriatian church movement!

Je, chama kilichokuwa cha waislam kikiwa na baraza la wazee wa TANU na ambacho ''chimbuko'' lake ni Sykes kwa mujibu wa Mohamed kiligeukaje na kuwa tawi la kanisa?

in Tanzania and Muslims in this country were the first in the world who contributed money to the Catholic secessionist state of Biafra in Nigeria to fight against their fellow Muslims in Nigeria, the most populous Muslim nation in Africa

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Akisema the most populous nation ana maana yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam au ana maanisha yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam katika jamii hiyo.

Vyovyote iwavyo si kweli kuwa Nigeria ina population kubwa ya waislam Afrika.
Ukiangalia takwimu Egypty, Algeria zinaongoza.
Kama utaangalia uwiano katika jamii Mauritania yenye population ya karibia 4 milioni ina waislam 99.4.
Kwa hali yoyote ile huu kama si uongo na uzushi basi ajuaye ni mola peke yake.

Halafu mwandishi hajaonyesha waislam wa Tanzania walichanga pesa kwa namna ipi.

The Catholic Church Movement in Biafra demanded to secede to rid themselves in what they called "a calamitous slavery in an ocean of Muslims." In contrary, a number of Muslim troops from Zanzibar were disproportionately killed during the Nyerere's invasion of Uganda in 1979 which toppled a Muslim ruler, Iddi Amin and re-installed Nyerere's old friend, Milton Obote, a Christian who supported Nyerere for the creation of Tanzania in collaboration with the Central Inteligence Agency (CIA) whose director was George Bush, later the former US President.

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Hapa anaunga mkono uvamizi wa Amin na kuua watu wa Kagera hata kama kufanya hivyo si katika Uislam.
Uungaji mkono wake upo katika jina la Idd Amin ambaye ni mwislam bila kujali imani na matendo yake.

Anasema Wazanzibar waliuawa katika vita ya Kagera, hajasema watanzania kutoka bara waliouawa.
Hapa ni kuonyesha kuwa Nyerere alifanya makusudi na kuwatanguliza wazanzibar wauawe na Amin au wapigane na mwislam Idd.
Kusudio lake ni kuonyesha unyama wa Nyerere dhidi ya waislam hata kama hadithi hiyo haiunganiki wala kuleta mantiki.

Their huge Christian Churches as well as many seminaries and proliferation of foreign priests and sisters in Tanzanian Churches, is a firm evidence that Christian organizations in Tanzania are affiliated with and used by foreign countries, because they can not through their local donation alone to carry out such activities and finance the lavish-style of their Church leaders. All the Churches and monasteries in Tanzania are the property of the Western nations, from where they recieve their orders and budgets for evangelism. For instance, the Tanzanian Catholic Church is the property of Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Belgians and French, the Lutheran Church is the property of Germans and Dutch, the architect of the apartheid in South Africa. The Anglican Church is the property of the British, the Moravian Church is the property of the Nordic countries, the Church of Pentecostal Assemblies of God, Seventh Day Adventists and African Inland Mission, among others are the properties of the United States. Further evidence of their affiliation is that all the Churches in developing countries, including Tanzania are referred to as "provinces" meaning that they are a sort of institutional chapters, and that their highest leadership is from the Western countries instead of host countries.

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Hapa anasahau kuwa Uislam una affiliation na Arab world! kuna AIB ambayo inapata donation kutoka Uarabuni, kuna World Muslim Tanzania Branch n.k ambazo zote kama zilivyo local churches zisizoweza kujiendesha nazo hizi za kiislam zinapata donation kama hizo.Amesahau nyama, tende na misaada ya ujenzi wa misikiti inayotoka Arab world

Labda mtu atasema Shia wana affiliation na Iran kama walivyo sunni na Saudi Arabia.
Sufi kutoka Saudia n.k.Hapa tusisahau kuwa kuna Ismailia, Bohora n.k.

Kwani ni mara ngapi kiongozi wa Bohora duniani Syedna Burhanuddin amekuja Tanzania kama kiongozi wa dhehebu hilo dunia?
Je, hii inatofauti gani na provinces za church au institution chapter!

Agakhan makao makuu yapo Paris, sasa Agakhan Tanzania branch siyo tawi kama lilivyo tawi la Roman Catholics.
Kwa msingi huo kwanini hizi zisiwe institutional chapters kama zilivyo za kikristo

The proliferation of Western Churches in Tanzania, led to the formation of many organizations such as the Tanzania Episcopal Conference (TEC), the Catholic Secretariat representing the largest Christian denomination; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania (ELCT), representing the non-Catholic denomination; the Christian Council of Tanzania (CCT), comprising of Protestant Missionary Societies, the Office of the Anglican Archbishops, the Office of the Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church and the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais, among others

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Kuna tatizo gani wakristo wakiji-0rganize katika makundi yao to forge ahead their agenda! what's wrong with that.
Kama waislam hawataki kuunda organization zao, should that be a national problem or their own problems?

Hata hivyo mbona kuna Taasisi ya baraza kuu la waislam, BAKWATA,Shura za Maimam, Bohaora community, Islamilia community, Shia community, Tareq, Istiqama, UAMSHO, Africa Muslim agency n.k. na hakuna anayehojia uwepo wake kidini.

Mwandishi anafanya comparison ya dini bila kuangalia mapungufu yatokanayo na comaprison yake.
Upotoshaji wa kiwango kizuri sana na wa kulaaniwa kwa vile hausimamni katika ukweli

The Tanzanian Churches are affiliated either with World Council of Churches or Lutheran World Federation. In contrast, the Muslims in Tanzania are marginalized and they are not allowed to be affiliated with any global Muslim organization, whether the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) or the Islamic Organization of Africa (IOA), in the gist that Tanzania is a secular state, despite the fact that secularism is a Christian ethos of governance (Matthew 22:21) and mimicked from the Western nations like the Unites States

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Anachotaka ni kuwachangaya wasomaji ili abaki na agenda yake.

Hizo organization za kikristo zina affiliation na global institutions kama zenyewe na si kama serikali.
Hakuna kibali kilichotolewa kwa Lutheran kuungana na world council of churches of Lutheran. Hizo ni intiative zao.
Wala serikali haijawazuia Waislam wa Tanzania kujiunga na world institutions kama walivyojiunga na IDBA au world musim council.

Kinachokatazwa ni kujiunga kwa institution za kiislam au kikristo kwa kupitia serikali na wala siyo zenyewe kufanya mawasiliano yao

Ironically, that Tanzania is a member of the Commonwealth, whose chief should always be the head of the Anglican Church of England, the former colonial ruler before the ascendancy of Nyerere in Zanzibar and Tanganyika.

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Tazama, Nigeria yenye populous muslim ni mwanachama wa Commonwealth kama ilivyo Bangladesh, Pakistan na India.

Pakistan yenye 96% waislam na watu 180 milioni ambao kwa kutazama percentage ni sawa na watu milion 176 ni mwanachama wa Common wealth. Yaani population ya Pakistan ni sawa na population nzima ya Tanzania bila kujali dini mara 4.

Halafu ukitaka kujua upuuzi wa huyu mwandishi kama si wendawazimu, kuwa mwanachama wa common wealth kunafuata nchi zilizokuwa chini ya Malkia na wala si kuwa ni chini ya kanisa la Anglican.
Kuna Francophone n.k. ambazo zinawanachama kama ilivyo commonwealth.

Hivi Arab League inaendeshwa kwa dini au ni kwa utaratibu gani.
Hapa anataka kufanya stupid and crazy insinuation ambayo mtu mwenye akili timamu ataendelea kusoma ili kujua kiwango cha wendawazimu wa mwandishi wala si kuongeza maarifa

At the University of Dar es Salaam alone, the research reported that the total enrollment for the 1986-1990 was 4,191. Out of this number, Muslim students were only 586, or 13%, whereas Christians were 3,609 or 87%.

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No University in this planet which enrolls students from the heaven or streets.

Kama shule inafungwa kwasababu hakuna wanafunzi ni ujinga uliobobea kutegemea kuwa mtu atapa wanafunzi chuo kikuu.
The research should tell more about primary and secondary education where students are prepare for university level

It is was not therefore a sheer coincidence throughout his uninterrupted 24 years as the President of Tanzania (1961-1985), Nyerere, being a Catholic had always appointed a Christian to head the Ministry in Education. Muslims stated that because of this ever-increasing under-representation of Muslims in relation to Christians in Secondary and Higher Education, all key posts in the Tanzanian administration and public institutions came to be dominated by Christians, while Muslims largely relegated to menial positions such as drivers and messengers.

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Ni ujinga mwingine wa huyu mwandishi.

Hivi kuna mtu ana degree au Diploma aliyeajiriwa kama dereva au messenger.
Kama watoto hawaendi shule in the end they will pay the cost, simple! It's natural justice nothing more nothing less.

Kama shule zinageuka kuwa vijiwe vya wahuni the natural justice will say it all.
Mwandishi anataka watu hasa wasiofikiri waamini kuwa kuna mwislam mwenye PhD aliyewahi kuwa dereva! stupid!

The Muslims in Tanganyika are demanding their a fair share of the national cake because after independence, Tanganyikan Muslim student intake, is below 10%; the Muslim Cabinet ministers are negligible while Muslim principal secretaries and heads of parastatal organization are non-existent.

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Another gaffe! Tatizo la waislam ni kupeleka watoto shule, kuwa na strong organization, kusimamia shule zitoe watoto wenye elimu, kuwa na vyuo vya ufundi, kuhimiza wajiendeleze kwenda college n.k.
Tatizo si kuwa na waziri au katibu mkuu.

Hivi nusu ya baraza la mawaziri likiwa waislam, wale watoto maia tatu kule kilwa walioacha shule watanufaika na nini.
Hivi katibu mkuu anasaidiaje waislam katika kuondokana na matatizo yao ya elimu.

If someone out there is not appreciating the source of the problem then that person is a problem ab initio.

But like Tanganyika, the Muslims in Zanzibar have been discriminated against education in foreign countries after the forceful union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar to form Tanzania. Mohammed Mwinyi Mzale, the then Minister for Education in Zanzibar stated that of the 12 members of the Joint Selection Committee (JOSECO) which selects students for higher education in university and institutions at home and abroad, none is from Zanzibar. He lamented that when students on Zanzibar's scholarship turn up at Tanzania missions abroad, they are kept a stiff arm's length away on the pretext that they are not on a United Republic's scholarship, even though in fact Zanzibar pays its share in the Union's higher education budget

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Mwandishi na waziri Mwinyi Mzale haionekani kama kuna anayeweza kumsaidia mwenzake kufikiri.

Hawa wajinga wamesahau kuwa Gharib Bilal makamu wa rais aliwahi kuwa katibu mkuu wa wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Lakini upumbavu zaidi ni pale mtu anapodai kuwa Zanzibar inachangia wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Mwandishi hajui kuwa Zanzibar haina bajeti ya elimu ya juu tangu mwaka 1964, bajeti ya wizara ya mambo ya ndani, wala ulinzi na uslama.

Hakuna, narudia hakuna siku SMZ imewahi kuchangia elimu ya juu. Kinyume chake wanafunzi wa ZNZ wanapewa upendeleo wa kuingia elimu ya juu hata kama wana division karibu na sifuri.
Wanafunzi wa Zanzibar wanalipiwa na serikali ya muungano licha ya ukweli kuwa ZNZ inapata mgao wake kutoka muungano.

Asilimia 98 ya viongozi wa ZNZ wamesoma, narudia wamesoma bure kabisa na wala hawadaiwi kama walivyo watoto wa Tanganyika. Ni ujinga wa hali juu sana kuudanganya umma na hilo litawezekana kwa wapuuzi.

Watu wenye akili zao watasoma hili na kudharau hata kile chenye thamani ndani yake. Absolutely stupid!

He contended that the executive bodies of higher education are Union only in word but in deeds and in their structure, there are mainland creatures and are there to do its biding. The Union parliament formulate policies for the interest of Tanganyika and believed that somehow the Tanganyika and Union governments are Siamese twins

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Mwandishi ameshindwa kuelewa kuwa ZNZ wamepewa fursa ya kujitoa katika muungano, wamegoma wanataka mkataba! sasa kama wanaonewa wanasubiri nini.

Lengo la mwandishi ni kujenga dhana isiyokuwepo kuwa waislam wanaonewa popote walipo.
Huu ni udanganyifu wa dhahiri, ni uongo na ubazazi kwasababu kipande hiki tu kinaonyesha jinsi gani mwandishi alivyomchonganishi, mdanganyifu achilia mbali mzandiki.

Watanzania watu kama hawa watatufanya tuchapane mapanga na baadaye tutakapotambua kuwa walikuwa wapuuzi waliojua kutumia kalam zao vema basi tutakuwa tumeshapotea njia.

Tusimame pamoja na kuwaambia watu wa aina hii kuwa hawasimamii dini kwasababu dini inakataza uongo uliojaa katika ndimi zao. Dini zinakataza uzushi, usengenyaji, fitna n.k. sasa huyu asiyeweza kusimamia haya anawezaje kusimama na kusema anasema kwa niaba ya dini.

Jasusi said:

It is about time Muslims stopped seeing themselves as victims. They should pull themselves by their bootstraps. Mohamed anatuambia kuwa utawala wa ukoloni uliwabagua waislamu. Well enough. Nyerere alilitambua hilo akataifisha shule za misheni ili kupunguza pengo la elimu kati ya waislamu na wakristo. Hilo Mohamed ameshindwa ku acknowledge. Sijasikia popote pale waislamu wamejenga health facilities. Sijasikia wameshindana na wakristo kujenga shule za msingi, sekondari etc. etc. Badala yake Mohamed anatusimulia mambo ya EAMWS kana kwamba taasisi hiyo ilikuwa na mipango yeyote ya kueneza shule za primary na sekondari Tanzania nzima. Walitaka kujenga chuo cha waislamu lakini wakati huo huo wakaingilia siasa za TANU. Wakatimuliwa nchini. Kuna simulizi nyingi tu hapa JF zinazoonyesha kuwa waislamu wanahiji ku step up to the plate instead of just playing the blame game. Kilwa na Lindi ni mifano tosha.

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Sasa lini nyinyi mlizijenga hzo shule au healh faculities unazozisema?


kwa kias kikubwa nyinyi hivo vitu mmevirithi kutoka kwa wakoloni,na ni kweli nyerere alitaifisha hizo shule na health facilities,inawezekana kweli alikua na nia njema katika hilo ya kwamba watanzania wote tupate elimu ya uhakika na matibabu ya uhakika,ila sasa hoja kuuu hapo ni kwamba kuna vitu ambavyo alikua anavifanya chini kwa chini vilipokuja kugundulika vikapelekea automatically kufuta dhana nzima ya nia na malengo aliyakawa nayo katika kuijenga tanzania ya baadae,,

kwan anazungumzwa hivi hivi bila ushahidi??

mbona kila allegation anayopewa umewekewa na ushahid wake???

tunajua hampo hapa kuukubali ukweli,ila mpo hapa kumtetea nyerere kitu ambacho ni vigumu sana kwa sasa...

I both agree and disagree with you Jasusi. I disagree on your saying that Muslims need to stop the blame game, Muslims are not playing the blame game, they are trying to change a system that seems to be oppressive to them. You have to realize that Muslim youths are Tanzanian youths, their being back in education and other aspects affects us all. So, let's be reasonable and try to not completely dismiss the claims of Muslims, but rather examine the claims holistically, and resolve what needs to be resolved, should there be anything. Having said that, there are some Muslims that are only blaming, but people who blame are always going to be there. What we need is to create a safe platform for those with claims that are genuine, and are backed with evidence. To have them reveal those problems and have Tanzania, as a country, go on to resolve those issues . That is what our country is missing.

On another note, when you say that you have never heard Muslims making health clinics, schools etc. I am quite positive that those things are happening, I went to a school built by michango ya kila baada ya swala ya adhuhuri na alasiri; henceforth I am a living testimony of such efforts, and there are many other efforts like those all over. What seems to be problematic is the what is claimed to be the clear attempts by the government to jeopardize those efforts. Mohammed Said addresses that through a historical viewpoint, some other people address that through other viewpoints like ishu ya watoto wa kiislamu kufelishwa somo la Maarifa ya Uilslamu( maybe na masomo mengine), au somo la kiarabu kuwa na very high grade cutoffs, udini katika ajira, etc.

That said, I am going to state where I agree with you, and that is in the fact that Muslims need to step up their efforts even further, reach higher and do more than the usual. They need to solidify the academic programs in their schools, just like my school did when I was there and even more. In that I agree with you completely. But mostly, funding,professionals, and other resources to undertake such missions are scarce. That is where the government could have stepped in, but as of now, there are complains of an opposite pursuit by the government. Let's be true patriots, look at all youths as our own. And a community of scholars like this, is the perfect place to think harder, and later act accordingly in order to see problems of this nature resolved for a better Tanzania.


Finally, we have to realize that this is not a game to compete on, it's the future of our country at stake. Let's act now, act reasonably, honestly and courageously.

Nguruvi3 said:

Wanajavi,
Kuna vitu viwili vya kufahamu. Kwanza kuna kusoma na pili kusoma na kuelewa.
Kila mtu anaweza kusoma lakini si lazima eelewe jambo linalopelekea mtu kuji-contradict.

Kwa habari ifuatayo inaweza kuonekana ina ukweli sana lakini ukiisoma hasa kwa watu walioishi nyakati fulani za matukio au wanaojishughulisha kuelewa utaona mambo mengi sana ya kutunga, kuzusha na hata kupotosha.
Tuiangalie kidogo habari hiiHapa anataka kuonyesha kuwa CCM ni chama cha kanisa. Fair enough!
Je, kiliongozwaje na Al Haji Mwinyi na JM Kikwete! Je, iliposemwa waislam walinong'oneza misikitini waichague CCM kufanya hivyo si kuchagua chriatian church movement!

Je, chama kilichokuwa cha waislam kikiwa na baraza la wazee wa TANU na ambacho ''chimbuko'' lake ni Sykes kwa mujibu wa Mohamed kiligeukaje na kuwa tawi la kanisa? Akisema the most populous nation ana maana yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam au ana maanisha yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam katika jamii hiyo.

Vyovyote iwavyo si kweli kuwa Nigeria ina population kubwa ya waislam Afrika.
Ukiangalia takwimu Egypty, Algeria zinaongoza.
Kama utaangalia uwiano katika jamii Mauritania yenye population ya karibia 4 milioni ina waislam 99.4.
Kwa hali yoyote ile huu kama si uongo na uzushi basi ajuaye ni mola peke yake.

Halafu mwandishi hajaonyesha waislam wa Tanzania walichanga pesa kwa namna ipi.Hapa anaunga mkono uvamizi wa Amin na kuua watu wa Kagera hata kama kufanya hivyo si katika Uislam.
Uungaji mkono wake upo katika jina la Idd Amin ambaye ni mwislam bila kujali imani na matendo yake.

Anasema Wazanzibar waliuawa katika vita ya Kagera, hajasema watanzania kutoka bara waliouawa.
Hapa ni kuonyesha kuwa Nyerere alifanya makusudi na kuwatanguliza wazanzibar wauawe na Amin au wapigane na mwislam Idd.
Kusudio lake ni kuonyesha unyama wa Nyerere dhidi ya waislam hata kama hadithi hiyo haiunganiki wala kuleta mantiki.
Hapa anasahau kuwa Uislam una affiliation na Arab world! kuna AIB ambayo inapata donation kutoka Uarabuni, kuna World Muslim Tanzania Branch n.k ambazo zote kama zilivyo local churches zisizoweza kujiendesha nazo hizi za kiislam zinapata donation kama hizo.Amesahau nyama, tende na misaada ya ujenzi wa misikiti inayotoka Arab world

Labda mtu atasema Shia wana affiliation na Iran kama walivyo sunni na Saudi Arabia.
Sufi kutoka Saudia n.k.Hapa tusisahau kuwa kuna Ismailia, Bohora n.k.

Kwani ni mara ngapi kiongozi wa Bohora duniani Syedna Burhanuddin amekuja Tanzania kama kiongozi wa dhehebu hilo dunia?
Je, hii inatofauti gani na provinces za church au institution chapter!

Agakhan makao makuu yapo Paris, sasa Agakhan Tanzania branch siyo tawi kama lilivyo tawi la Roman Catholics.
Kwa msingi huo kwanini hizi zisiwe institutional chapters kama zilivyo za kikristoKuna tatizo gani wakristo wakiji-0rganize katika makundi yao to forge ahead their agenda! what's wrong with that.
Kama waislam hawataki kuunda organization zao, should that be a national problem or their own problems?

Hata hivyo mbona kuna Taasisi ya baraza kuu la waislam, BAKWATA,Shura za Maimam, Bohaora community, Islamilia community, Shia community, Tareq, Istiqama, UAMSHO, Africa Muslim agency n.k. na hakuna anayehojia uwepo wake kidini.

Mwandishi anafanya comparison ya dini bila kuangalia mapungufu yatokanayo na comaprison yake.
Upotoshaji wa kiwango kizuri sana na wa kulaaniwa kwa vile hausimamni katika ukweliAnachotaka ni kuwachangaya wasomaji ili abaki na agenda yake.

Hizo organization za kikristo zina affiliation na global institutions kama zenyewe na si kama serikali.
Hakuna kibali kilichotolewa kwa Lutheran kuungana na world council of churches of Lutheran. Hizo ni intiative zao.
Wala serikali haijawazuia Waislam wa Tanzania kujiunga na world institutions kama walivyojiunga na IDBA au world musim council.

Kinachokatazwa ni kujiunga kwa institution za kiislam au kikristo kwa kupitia serikali na wala siyo zenyewe kufanya mawasiliano yaoTazama, Nigeria yenye populous muslim ni mwanachama wa Commonwealth kama ilivyo Bangladesh, Pakistan na India.

Pakistan yenye 96% waislam na watu 180 milioni ambao kwa kutazama percentage ni sawa na watu milion 176 ni mwanachama wa Common wealth. Yaani population ya Pakistan ni sawa na population nzima ya Tanzania bila kujali dini mara 4.

Halafu ukitaka kujua upuuzi wa huyu mwandishi kama si wendawazimu, kuwa mwanachama wa common wealth kunafuata nchi zilizokuwa chini ya Malkia na wala si kuwa ni chini ya kanisa la Anglican.
Kuna Francophone n.k. ambazo zinawanachama kama ilivyo commonwealth.

Hivi Arab League inaendeshwa kwa dini au ni kwa utaratibu gani.
Hapa anataka kufanya stupid and crazy insinuation ambayo mtu mwenye akili timamu ataendelea kusoma ili kujua kiwango cha wendawazimu wa mwandishi wala si kuongeza maarifaNo University in this palnet enrolls student from the heaven or street. Kama shule inagungwa kwasababu hakuna wanafunzi ni ujinga uliobobea kutegemea kuwa mu atapa wanafunzi chuo kikuu. The reseach should tell more about primary and secondary education where students are prepare for university level
Ni ujinga mwingine wa huyu mwandishi. Hivi kuna mtu ana degree au Diploma aliyeajiriwa kama dereva au messenger.
Kama watoto hawaendi shule in the end they will pay the cost, simple! It's natural justice nothing more nothing less.
Kama shule zinageuka kuwa vijiwe vya wahuni the natural justice will say it all.
Mwandishi anataka watu hasa wasiofikiri waamini kuwa kuna mwislam mwenye PhD aliyewahi kuwa dereva! stupid!Another gaffe! Tatizo la waislam ni kupeleka watoto shule, kuwa na strong organization, kusimamia shule zitoe watoto wenye elimu, kuwa na vyuo vya ufundi, kuhimiza wajiendeleze kwenda college n.k. Tatizo si kuwa na waziri au katibu mkuu.
Hivi nusu ya baraza la mawaziri likiwa waislam, wale watoto maia tatu kule kilwa walioacha shule watanufaika na nini.
Hivi katibu mkuu anasaidiaje waislam katika kuondokana na matatizo yao ya elimu.
If someone out there is not appreciating thesource of the problem then that person is a problem ab initio.Mwandishi na waziri Mwinyi Mzale haionekani kama kuna anayeweza kumsaidia mwenzake kufikiri. Hawa wajinga wamesahau kuwa Gharib Bilal makamu wa rais aliwahi kuwa katibu mkuu wa wizara ya elimu ya juu. Lakini upumbavu zaidi ni pale mtu anapodai kuwa Zanzibar inachangia wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Mwandishi hajui kuwa Zanzibar haina bajeti ya elimu ya juu tangu mwaka 1964, bajeti ya wizara ya mambo ya ndani, wala ulinzi na uslama.

Hakuna, narudia hakuna siku SMZ imewahi kuchangia elimu ya juu. Kinyume chake wanafunzi wa ZNZ wanapewa upendeleo wa kuingia elimu ya juu hata kama wana division karibu na sifuri. Wnafunzi wa Zanzibar wanalipiwa na serikali ya muungano licha ya ukweli kuwa ZNZ inapata mgo wake kutoka muungano.

Asilimia 98 ya viongozi wa ZNZ wamesoma, narudia wamesoma bure kabisa na wala hawadaiwi kama walivyo watoto wa Tanganyika. Ni ujinga wa hali juu sana kuudanganya umma na hilo litawezekana kwa wapuuzi. Watu wenye akili zao watasoma hili na kudharau hata kile chenye thamani ndani yake. Absolutely stupid!Mwandishi ameshindwa kuelewa kuwa ZNZ wamepewa fursa ya kujitoa katika muungano, wamegoma wanataka mkataba! sasa kama wanaonewa wansubiri nini.

Lengo la mwandishi ni kujenga dhana isiyokuwepo kuwa waislam wanaonewa popote walipo.
Huu ni udanganyifu wa dhahiri, ni uongo na ubazazi kwasababu kiande hiki tu kinaonyesha jinsi gani mwandishi alivyomchonganishi, mdanganyifu achilia mbali mzandiki.

Watanzania watu kama hawa watatufanya tuchapane mapanga na baadaye tutakapotambua kuwa walikuwa wapuuzi waliojua kutumia kalam zao vema basi tutakuwa tumeshapotea njia.

Tusimame pamoja na kuwaambia watu wa aina hii kuwa hawasimamii dini kwasababu dini inakataza uongo uliojaa katika ndimi zao. Dini zinakataza uzushi, usengenyaji, fitna n.k. sasa huyu asiyeweza kusimamia haya anawezaje kusimama na kusema anasema kwa niaba ya dini.

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Well then,

katika bandiko lako reeefu na criticisms zako zipo baadhi zenye hoja na mashiko kutokana na hicho alichokiandika huyo mwandishi uliyemnukuu,lakini kama umeyajumuisha mambo yote yaliyozungumzwa katika huu mjadala huwez kushiindwa kukubali ya kwamba tatzo lilikuwapo,lipo na bado halijapatiwa mwarobain wake,,,

Kitu kingine nawewe huwa unafanya general conclusion kutokana na hisia na mitizamo yako,ambayo kuna sehemu zingine kwa makusudi yako kabisa umeamua kupotosha au kwa kutoelewa kwako umeamua kueleza vitu ambavyo havipo moja kwa moja...

Na maudhui makubwa ya hoja yetu hapa si kujenga utengano na kuchochea kutoelewana baina ya jamii ya kitanzania,la hasha,tatizo lililopo ni kwamba watu hamtaki ukweli usemwe kwa kuwa tuh wahusika na ukweli huu ni watu ambao nyinyi mlikua na bado mnawaona walikua kama malaika katika nchi hii kutokana na mazuri mengi waliyofanya upande wenu,,sisi ukweli lazima tuuseme tuh,hata kama kwenu utakua ni mchungu kias gani,kila kitu kimewekwa wazi sana,ila ni nyinyi mnaokuja na kukipindua pindua ili mpate justifications za kuweka utetezi wenu,sasa hiyo haitasaidia hata kidogo,,

We need more light about each other. Light creates understanding, understanding creates love, love creates patience, and patience creates unity..

So,your side doesnt realize the necessity of the LIGHT to our community..

Mwanamkiwa said:

I both agree and disagree with you Jasusi. I disagree on your saying that Muslims need to stop the blame game, Muslims are not playing the blame game, they are trying to change a system that seems to be oppressive to them. You have to realize that Muslim youths are Tanzanian youths, their being back in education and other aspects affects us all. So, let's be reasonable and try to not completely dismiss the claims of Muslims, but rather examine the claims holistically, and resolve what needs to be resolved, should there be anything. Having said that, there are some Muslims that are only blaming, but people who blame are always going to be there. What we need is to create a safe platform for those with claims that are genuine, and are backed with evidence. To have them reveal those problems and have Tanzania, as a country, go on to resolve those issues . That is what our country is missing.

On another note, when you say that you have never heard Muslims making health clinics, schools etc. I am quite positive that those things are happening, I went to a school built by michango ya kila baada ya swala ya adhuhuri na alasiri; henceforth I am a living testimony of such efforts, and there are many other efforts like those all over. What seems to be problematic is the what is claimed to be the clear attempts by the government to jeopardize those efforts. Mohammed Said addresses that through a historical viewpoint, some other people address that through other viewpoints like ishu ya watoto wa kiislamu kufelishwa somo la Maarifa ya Uilslamu( maybe na masomo mengine), au somo la kiarabu kuwa na very high grade cutoffs, udini katika ajira, etc.

That said, I am going to state where I agree with you, and that is in the fact that Muslims need to step up their efforts even further, reach higher and do more than the usual. They need to solidify the academic programs in their schools, just like my school did when I was there and even more. In that I agree with you completely. But mostly, funding,professionals, and other resources to undertake such missions are scarce. That is where the government could have stepped in, but as of now, there are complains of an opposite pursuit by the government. Let's be true patriots, look at all youths as our own. And a community of scholars like this, is the perfect place to think harder, and later act accordingly in order to see problems of this nature resolved for a better Tanzania.


Finally, we have to realize that this is not a game to compete on, it's the future of our country at stake. Let's act now, act reasonably, honestly and courageously.

Click to expand...

And this is the reality...

Usually when people are humiliated and oppressed, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry and fed up with the situation, they bring about a change.",,

and one among of the best ways of bringing changes is to speak out with the facts,

you can speak orally,you can speak in various ways,,

the problem is,these people they do not want to hear anything from our side..,

hawataki tuh kuskia na kuelewa,
kwa kuwa wanaosema ni waislam,
wanaosema hawana shule,
wanaoesema wanapigania dini yao,
wanaosema ni wachochezi.,,
wanaosema wanaelezea histohisia zao,
wanaosema ni watu wa madrasa and etc,,

lakini kusema watu wataendelea kusema,
ni khiyari yao kuamin au kupuuza na kuacha,
hawajashikiwa bakora..

DULLAH MSAVIVOR said:

Sasa lini nyinyi mlizijenga hzo shule au healh faculities unazozisema?


kwa kias kikubwa nyinyi hivo vitu mmevirithi kutoka kwa wakoloni,na ni kweli nyerere alitaifisha hizo shule na health facilities,inawezekana kweli alikua na nia njema katika hilo ya kwamba watanzania wote tupate elimu ya uhakika na matibabu ya uhakika,ila sasa hoja kuuu hapo ni kwamba kuna vitu ambavyo alikua anavifanya chini kwa chini vilipokuja kugundulika vikapelekea automatically kufuta dhana nzima ya nia na malengo aliyakawa nayo katika kuijenga tanzania ya baadae,,

kwan anazungumzwa hivi hivi bila ushahidi??

mbona kila allegation anayopewa umewekewa na ushahid wake???

tunajua hampo hapa kuukubali ukweli,ila mpo hapa kumtetea nyerere kitu ambacho ni vigumu sana kwa sasa...

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You are making a big mistake for thinking that church schools and hospitals were built by colonial governments. Kumbuka kwamba Waingereza hawakuja ku-colonize Tanzania kama ilivyokuwa Kenya. So they did as little as possible kuendeleza Tanganyika, compared to Kenya ambako walijenga viwanda vingi. Ukiangalia bila emotions kila mahali wamishenari walipoweka kambi, walijenga hospitali na shule. Kama ni Bukoba, Moravian wa Tabora, AIM Mwanza na Mennonite Musoma au Lutheran Moshi na Catholics. Kila mahali walipojenga kambi, walijenga shule na hospitali au zahanati. Hawakutumia fedha za Waingereza ambao walikuwa wakoloni, hapana. Walichangisha wenyewe fedha zao au Marekani ama Roma na kuja kujenga hizo institutions. Kwa hili Waislamu mnafanya kosa kubwa sana au mnataka kujenga chuki makusudi kwa kudai kuwa wamisheni walitumia fedha za serikali kujenga taasisi zao. Hapana. They brought their own money and for this some of us are forever thankful.

Mwanamkiwa said:

I both agree and disagree with you Jasusi. I disagree on your saying that Muslims need to stop the blame game, Muslims are not playing the blame game, they are trying to change a system that seems to be oppressive to them. You have to realize that Muslim youths are Tanzanian youths, their being back in education and other aspects affects us all. So, let's be reasonable and try to not completely dismiss the claims of Muslims, but rather examine the claims holistically, and resolve what needs to be resolved, should there be anything. Having said that, there are some Muslims that are only blaming, but people who blame are always going to be there. What we need is to create a safe platform for those with claims that are genuine, and are backed with evidence. To have them reveal those problems and have Tanzania, as a country, go on to resolve those issues . That is what our country is missing.

On another note, when you say that you have never heard Muslims making health clinics, schools etc. I am quite positive that those things are happening, I went to a school built by michango ya kila baada ya swala ya adhuhuri na alasiri; henceforth I am a living testimony of such efforts, and there are many other efforts like those all over. What seems to be problematic is the what is claimed to be the clear attempts by the government to jeopardize those efforts. Mohammed Said addresses that through a historical viewpoint, some other people address that through other viewpoints like ishu ya watoto wa kiislamu kufelishwa somo la Maarifa ya Uilslamu( maybe na masomo mengine), au somo la kiarabu kuwa na very high grade cutoffs, udini katika ajira, etc.

That said, I am going to state where I agree with you, and that is in the fact that Muslims need to step up their efforts even further, reach higher and do more than the usual. They need to solidify the academic programs in their schools, just like my school did when I was there and even more. In that I agree with you completely. But mostly, funding,professionals, and other resources to undertake such missions are scarce. That is where the government could have stepped in, but as of now, there are complains of an opposite pursuit by the government. Let's be true patriots, look at all youths as our own. And a community of scholars like this, is the perfect place to think harder, and later act accordingly in order to see problems of this nature resolved for a better Tanzania.


Finally, we have to realize that this is not a game to compete on, it's the future of our country at stake. Let's act now, act reasonably, honestly and courageously.

Click to expand...

Well and good. Kama Waislamu wanajenga clinics zao na shule all I can say is that they need to do more of that. Wahakikishe kila sehemu wanapojenga msikiti, waongeze na zahanati na shule ya chekechea. Hii itasaidia kupunguza malalamiko ya mzee Mohamed kwamba kuna mfumokristo. Tunahitaji mfumotanzania ambako kila mtanzania atajiona ana stake in the future of this nation of ours.

Nguruvi3 said:

Wanajavi,
Kuna vitu viwili vya kufahamu. Kwanza kuna kusoma na pili kusoma na kuelewa.
Kila mtu anaweza kusoma lakini si lazima eelewe jambo linalopelekea mtu kuji-contradict.

Kwa habari ifuatayo inaweza kuonekana ina ukweli sana lakini ukiisoma hasa kwa watu walioishi nyakati fulani za matukio au wanaojishughulisha kuelewa utaona mambo mengi sana ya kutunga, kuzusha na hata kupotosha.
Tuiangalie kidogo habari hiiHapa anataka kuonyesha kuwa CCM ni chama cha kanisa. Fair enough!
Je, kiliongozwaje na Al Haji Mwinyi na JM Kikwete! Je, iliposemwa waislam walinong'oneza misikitini waichague CCM kufanya hivyo si kuchagua chriatian church movement!

Je, chama kilichokuwa cha waislam kikiwa na baraza la wazee wa TANU na ambacho ''chimbuko'' lake ni Sykes kwa mujibu wa Mohamed kiligeukaje na kuwa tawi la kanisa? Akisema the most populous nation ana maana yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam au ana maanisha yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam katika jamii hiyo.

Vyovyote iwavyo si kweli kuwa Nigeria ina population kubwa ya waislam Afrika.
Ukiangalia takwimu Egypty, Algeria zinaongoza.
Kama utaangalia uwiano katika jamii Mauritania yenye population ya karibia 4 milioni ina waislam 99.4.
Kwa hali yoyote ile huu kama si uongo na uzushi basi ajuaye ni mola peke yake.

Halafu mwandishi hajaonyesha waislam wa Tanzania walichanga pesa kwa namna ipi.Hapa anaunga mkono uvamizi wa Amin na kuua watu wa Kagera hata kama kufanya hivyo si katika Uislam.
Uungaji mkono wake upo katika jina la Idd Amin ambaye ni mwislam bila kujali imani na matendo yake.

Anasema Wazanzibar waliuawa katika vita ya Kagera, hajasema watanzania kutoka bara waliouawa.
Hapa ni kuonyesha kuwa Nyerere alifanya makusudi na kuwatanguliza wazanzibar wauawe na Amin au wapigane na mwislam Idd.
Kusudio lake ni kuonyesha unyama wa Nyerere dhidi ya waislam hata kama hadithi hiyo haiunganiki wala kuleta mantiki.
Hapa anasahau kuwa Uislam una affiliation na Arab world! kuna AIB ambayo inapata donation kutoka Uarabuni, kuna World Muslim Tanzania Branch n.k ambazo zote kama zilivyo local churches zisizoweza kujiendesha nazo hizi za kiislam zinapata donation kama hizo.Amesahau nyama, tende na misaada ya ujenzi wa misikiti inayotoka Arab world

Labda mtu atasema Shia wana affiliation na Iran kama walivyo sunni na Saudi Arabia.
Sufi kutoka Saudia n.k.Hapa tusisahau kuwa kuna Ismailia, Bohora n.k.

Kwani ni mara ngapi kiongozi wa Bohora duniani Syedna Burhanuddin amekuja Tanzania kama kiongozi wa dhehebu hilo dunia?
Je, hii inatofauti gani na provinces za church au institution chapter!

Agakhan makao makuu yapo Paris, sasa Agakhan Tanzania branch siyo tawi kama lilivyo tawi la Roman Catholics.
Kwa msingi huo kwanini hizi zisiwe institutional chapters kama zilivyo za kikristoKuna tatizo gani wakristo wakiji-0rganize katika makundi yao to forge ahead their agenda! what's wrong with that.
Kama waislam hawataki kuunda organization zao, should that be a national problem or their own problems?

Hata hivyo mbona kuna Taasisi ya baraza kuu la waislam, BAKWATA,Shura za Maimam, Bohaora community, Islamilia community, Shia community, Tareq, Istiqama, UAMSHO, Africa Muslim agency n.k. na hakuna anayehojia uwepo wake kidini.

Mwandishi anafanya comparison ya dini bila kuangalia mapungufu yatokanayo na comaprison yake.
Upotoshaji wa kiwango kizuri sana na wa kulaaniwa kwa vile hausimamni katika ukweliAnachotaka ni kuwachangaya wasomaji ili abaki na agenda yake.

Hizo organization za kikristo zina affiliation na global institutions kama zenyewe na si kama serikali.
Hakuna kibali kilichotolewa kwa Lutheran kuungana na world council of churches of Lutheran. Hizo ni intiative zao.
Wala serikali haijawazuia Waislam wa Tanzania kujiunga na world institutions kama walivyojiunga na IDBA au world musim council.

Kinachokatazwa ni kujiunga kwa institution za kiislam au kikristo kwa kupitia serikali na wala siyo zenyewe kufanya mawasiliano yaoTazama, Nigeria yenye populous muslim ni mwanachama wa Commonwealth kama ilivyo Bangladesh, Pakistan na India.

Pakistan yenye 96% waislam na watu 180 milioni ambao kwa kutazama percentage ni sawa na watu milion 176 ni mwanachama wa Common wealth. Yaani population ya Pakistan ni sawa na population nzima ya Tanzania bila kujali dini mara 4.

Halafu ukitaka kujua upuuzi wa huyu mwandishi kama si wendawazimu, kuwa mwanachama wa common wealth kunafuata nchi zilizokuwa chini ya Malkia na wala si kuwa ni chini ya kanisa la Anglican.
Kuna Francophone n.k. ambazo zinawanachama kama ilivyo commonwealth.

Hivi Arab League inaendeshwa kwa dini au ni kwa utaratibu gani.
Hapa anataka kufanya stupid and crazy insinuation ambayo mtu mwenye akili timamu ataendelea kusoma ili kujua kiwango cha wendawazimu wa mwandishi wala si kuongeza maarifaNo University in this planet which enrolls students from the heaven or streets.

Kama shule inafungwa kwasababu hakuna wanafunzi ni ujinga uliobobea kutegemea kuwa mtu atapa wanafunzi chuo kikuu.
The research should tell more about primary and secondary education where students are prepare for university level Ni ujinga mwingine wa huyu mwandishi.

Hivi kuna mtu ana degree au Diploma aliyeajiriwa kama dereva au messenger.
Kama watoto hawaendi shule in the end they will pay the cost, simple! It's natural justice nothing more nothing less.

Kama shule zinageuka kuwa vijiwe vya wahuni the natural justice will say it all.
Mwandishi anataka watu hasa wasiofikiri waamini kuwa kuna mwislam mwenye PhD aliyewahi kuwa dereva! stupid!Another gaffe! Tatizo la waislam ni kupeleka watoto shule, kuwa na strong organization, kusimamia shule zitoe watoto wenye elimu, kuwa na vyuo vya ufundi, kuhimiza wajiendeleze kwenda college n.k.
Tatizo si kuwa na waziri au katibu mkuu.

Hivi nusu ya baraza la mawaziri likiwa waislam, wale watoto maia tatu kule kilwa walioacha shule watanufaika na nini.
Hivi katibu mkuu anasaidiaje waislam katika kuondokana na matatizo yao ya elimu.

If someone out there is not appreciating the source of the problem then that person is a problem ab initio.Mwandishi na waziri Mwinyi Mzale haionekani kama kuna anayeweza kumsaidia mwenzake kufikiri.

Hawa wajinga wamesahau kuwa Gharib Bilal makamu wa rais aliwahi kuwa katibu mkuu wa wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Lakini upumbavu zaidi ni pale mtu anapodai kuwa Zanzibar inachangia wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Mwandishi hajui kuwa Zanzibar haina bajeti ya elimu ya juu tangu mwaka 1964, bajeti ya wizara ya mambo ya ndani, wala ulinzi na uslama.

Hakuna, narudia hakuna siku SMZ imewahi kuchangia elimu ya juu. Kinyume chake wanafunzi wa ZNZ wanapewa upendeleo wa kuingia elimu ya juu hata kama wana division karibu na sifuri.
Wanafunzi wa Zanzibar wanalipiwa na serikali ya muungano licha ya ukweli kuwa ZNZ inapata mgao wake kutoka muungano.

Asilimia 98 ya viongozi wa ZNZ wamesoma, narudia wamesoma bure kabisa na wala hawadaiwi kama walivyo watoto wa Tanganyika. Ni ujinga wa hali juu sana kuudanganya umma na hilo litawezekana kwa wapuuzi.

Watu wenye akili zao watasoma hili na kudharau hata kile chenye thamani ndani yake. Absolutely stupid!Mwandishi ameshindwa kuelewa kuwa ZNZ wamepewa fursa ya kujitoa katika muungano, wamegoma wanataka mkataba! sasa kama wanaonewa wanasubiri nini.

Lengo la mwandishi ni kujenga dhana isiyokuwepo kuwa waislam wanaonewa popote walipo.
Huu ni udanganyifu wa dhahiri, ni uongo na ubazazi kwasababu kipande hiki tu kinaonyesha jinsi gani mwandishi alivyomchonganishi, mdanganyifu achilia mbali mzandiki.

Watanzania watu kama hawa watatufanya tuchapane mapanga na baadaye tutakapotambua kuwa walikuwa wapuuzi waliojua kutumia kalam zao vema basi tutakuwa tumeshapotea njia.

Tusimame pamoja na kuwaambia watu wa aina hii kuwa hawasimamii dini kwasababu dini inakataza uongo uliojaa katika ndimi zao. Dini zinakataza uzushi, usengenyaji, fitna n.k. sasa huyu asiyeweza kusimamia haya anawezaje kusimama na kusema anasema kwa niaba ya dini.

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Nguruvi3,
Nimemwomba Ritz atuambie amenukuu maandishi ya nani lakini mpaka sasa yuko kimya. Nina hakika haya ni maoni ya Mohamed Said kuhusu kitabu cha van Bergen na yametiwa chumvi kukidhi lengo lake. Niko tayari kuomba msamaha kama kweli haya si maandishi ya Mohamed Said. He is wrong on Biafra, he is wrong on the British cropping up Nyerere and he is wrong on the motives for the east african federation.

Jasusi said:

You are making a big mistake for thinking that church schools and hospitals were built by colonial governments. Kumbuka kwamba Waingereza hawakuja ku-colonize Tanzania kama ilivyokuwa Kenya. So they did as little as possible kuendeleza Tanganyika, compared to Kenya ambako walijenga viwanda vingi. Ukiangalia bila emotions kila mahali wamishenari walipoweka kambi, walijenga hospitali na shule. Kama ni Bukoba, Moravian wa Tabora, AIM Mwanza na Mennonite Musoma au Lutheran Moshi na Catholics. Kila mahali walipojenga kambi, walijenga shule na hospitali au zahanati. Hawakutumia fedha za Waingereza ambao walikuwa wakoloni, hapana. Walichangisha wenyewe fedha zao au Marekani ama Roma na kuja kujenga hizo institutions. Kwa hili Waislamu mnafanya kosa kubwa sana au mnataka kujenga chuki makusudi kwa kudai kuwa wamisheni walitumia fedha za serikali kujenga taasisi zao. Hapana. They brought their own money and for this some of us are forever thankful.

Click to expand...

Mmejenga nyinyi au mmevirithi??

na walijenga kwa faida zenu au kwa faida zao?

kilichowapelekea wao kuzijenga ni kwa kuwa walikua kutawala taifa hili ambalo lilikua na wananchi wa iman mbali mbali,za kimila na kiislam,kwan wao walivofika hapa uislam ulikua ushaingia miaka mingi kias,,

kwhiyo kilichowaleta hapa hasa ni hii nchi ya tanzania kuitawala,cha ajabu walipoondoka na kuacha hizo istitutions nyinyi mmeibuka vifua mbele na kutamba kuwa mmejnga nyinyi hali ya kuwa haiko hivyo..

Tunachopigania kwa sasa ni usawa wa mambo,na sio kukumbatia uongo na uonevu uliodumu miaka na miaka..

Mohamed Said said:

G,

Nakuuliza baada ya haya yote walifanya wazee wetu nini
ilikuwa ijaza yao?

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Ulitaka iwe nini?

Mzee Mwanakijiji said:

Ulitaka iwe nini?

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Tukitaka wasifutwe kwenye historia ya nchi hii.,waenziwe na kukumbukwa kama hao wengine..

hawa wameachwa kwa nini,na hao wengine wamepewa ubaba wa taifa kwa sababu zipi??

DULLAH MSAVIVOR said:

Mmejenga nyinyi au mmevirithi??

na walijenga kwa faida zenu au kwa faida zao?

kilichowapelekea wao kuzijenga ni kwa kuwa walikua kutawala taifa hili ambalo lilikua na wananchi wa iman mbali mbali,za kimila na kiislam,kwan wao walivofika hapa uislam ulikua ushaingia miaka mingi kias,,

kwhiyo kilichowaleta hapa hasa ni hii nchi ya tanzania kuitawala,cha ajabu walipoondoka na kuacha hizo istitutions nyinyi mmeibuka vifua mbele na kutamba kuwa mmejnga nyinyi hali ya kuwa haiko hivyo..

Tunachopigania kwa sasa ni usawa wa mambo,na sio kukumbatia uongo na uonevu uliodumu miaka na miaka..

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Dullah Msuvivor,
Fanya utafiti kidogo utagundua kuwa madhehebu mengi yaliyoingia Tanzania hayakuwa ya Waingereza. Wamishenari waliokuja Tanganyika hawatofautiani na wale waliokwenda Cameroon, Malawi Sierra Leone au hata Papua New Guinea. Kila mahali walipokwenda walijenga taasisi za kupambana na maradhi na kutoa elimu. Hiyo ilikuwa ni mission yao. Fedha za kugharimia kazi hizo zilitolewa na makanisa ya nchi zao. Shule zilizojengwa na Waingereza nchini Tanganyika zinafahamika, ikiwa pamoja na Tabora ambayo ilikuwa inachukua watoto wa machifu. Dodoma Alliance, kwa mfano ilijengwa kwa ushirikiano wa makanisa matatu, CMS, AIM na Anglican. Wasabato na Wamennonite walitoka Marekani. Kule Shirati mpaka leo Wamennonite bado wanaisaidia hospitali ya Shirati ambayo ilijengwa in the 1930's kwa fedha za kanisa. Fanya kautafiti kidogo kabla ya kuhukumu.

Mag3 said:

Ritz, wewe ni muongo mkubwa...naona umeiga sifa ya mchochezi na muongo Mohamed Said...kweli unathubutu kuandika uongo kama huu kwenye jamvi hili. Jamshid bin Abdullah bin Khalifah bin Haroub (1963-1964), hajafa na bado anaishi akiwa na ndoto za kurudi Zanzibar. Sultani Jamshid bin Abdullah bin Khalifah bin Haroub, baada ya kumkimbia Field Marshall John Okelo, alipewa hifadhi Dar es Salaam na Raisi Mwalimu Julius Nyerere, baada kukataliwa kukanyaga ardhi ya Kenya na Raisi wa nchi hiyo Jomo Kenyatta...Kama madai haya ya kizushi yanaweza yakatolewa na wahitimu wa Mohamed Said na wapuuzi wachache wakayaamini, basi iko kazi.

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Naona povu linakutoka ovyo muongo waheed, msubiri kiboko yako zomba, uje uchezee za uso.

Mzee Mwanakijiji said:

Ulitaka iwe nini?

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Heshima.

Darwin said:

Nimeshaanza kuchoka sasa na hii thread!!
Ile audio tuliyoahidiwa iko wapi?

Kama ingekua kesi mahakamani basi kesi ingeshatupiliwa zamani.
Waliodai uchochezi mpaka sasa hawajatoa ushahidi kamili wa uchochezi

Mwanzo nilikua sina upande wowote kwani nilitaka kujua na upande wa pili lakini sasa inabidi niwe upande wa Mohamed.

Hii thread imenifundisha mambo mengi kuhusu TANU

Mohamed asante kwakutokuchoka kuandika kile unachokijua japokua unakumbana na kejeli.

Kwa wale waliotoa madai akina Jericko Nyerere, kama unataka kutupa historia sahihi ya TANU umepewa nafasi na washabiki wako kuandika historia ya kweli ili kumchalenge Mohamed.

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Darwin,

Nakushukuru sana.

sweke34 said:

Tofauti kivipi? Hebu fafanua...

In order to understand the Tanzanian political environment and to appreciate this study we first need to establish even in a nut
shell the source of the problem. Why is the Church in Tanzania and particularly the Catholic Church in control of the government
and all that it entails? Why are Muslims, fifty years after independence still backward, uneducated and form the lower strata of society? Is this by default or design?

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Sweke,

Hivi huu mnakasha unahusu kitu gani?
Uchochezi wangu, historia ya TANU au nini?

Nguruvi3 said:

Wanajavi,
Kuna vitu viwili vya kufahamu. Kwanza kuna kusoma na pili kusoma na kuelewa.
Kila mtu anaweza kusoma lakini si lazima eelewe jambo linalopelekea mtu kuji-contradict.

Kwa habari ifuatayo inaweza kuonekana ina ukweli sana lakini ukiisoma hasa kwa watu walioishi nyakati fulani za matukio au wanaojishughulisha kuelewa utaona mambo mengi sana ya kutunga, kuzusha na hata kupotosha.
Tuiangalie kidogo habari hiiHapa anataka kuonyesha kuwa CCM ni chama cha kanisa. Fair enough!
Je, kiliongozwaje na Al Haji Mwinyi na JM Kikwete! Je, iliposemwa waislam walinong'oneza misikitini waichague CCM kufanya hivyo si kuchagua chriatian church movement!

Je, chama kilichokuwa cha waislam kikiwa na baraza la wazee wa TANU na ambacho ''chimbuko'' lake ni Sykes kwa mujibu wa Mohamed kiligeukaje na kuwa tawi la kanisa? Akisema the most populous nation ana maana yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam au ana maanisha yenye idadi kubwa ya waislam katika jamii hiyo.

Vyovyote iwavyo si kweli kuwa Nigeria ina population kubwa ya waislam Afrika.
Ukiangalia takwimu Egypty, Algeria zinaongoza.
Kama utaangalia uwiano katika jamii Mauritania yenye population ya karibia 4 milioni ina waislam 99.4.
Kwa hali yoyote ile huu kama si uongo na uzushi basi ajuaye ni mola peke yake.

Halafu mwandishi hajaonyesha waislam wa Tanzania walichanga pesa kwa namna ipi.Hapa anaunga mkono uvamizi wa Amin na kuua watu wa Kagera hata kama kufanya hivyo si katika Uislam.
Uungaji mkono wake upo katika jina la Idd Amin ambaye ni mwislam bila kujali imani na matendo yake.

Anasema Wazanzibar waliuawa katika vita ya Kagera, hajasema watanzania kutoka bara waliouawa.
Hapa ni kuonyesha kuwa Nyerere alifanya makusudi na kuwatanguliza wazanzibar wauawe na Amin au wapigane na mwislam Idd.
Kusudio lake ni kuonyesha unyama wa Nyerere dhidi ya waislam hata kama hadithi hiyo haiunganiki wala kuleta mantiki.
Hapa anasahau kuwa Uislam una affiliation na Arab world! kuna AIB ambayo inapata donation kutoka Uarabuni, kuna World Muslim Tanzania Branch n.k ambazo zote kama zilivyo local churches zisizoweza kujiendesha nazo hizi za kiislam zinapata donation kama hizo.Amesahau nyama, tende na misaada ya ujenzi wa misikiti inayotoka Arab world

Labda mtu atasema Shia wana affiliation na Iran kama walivyo sunni na Saudi Arabia.
Sufi kutoka Saudia n.k.Hapa tusisahau kuwa kuna Ismailia, Bohora n.k.

Kwani ni mara ngapi kiongozi wa Bohora duniani Syedna Burhanuddin amekuja Tanzania kama kiongozi wa dhehebu hilo dunia?
Je, hii inatofauti gani na provinces za church au institution chapter!

Agakhan makao makuu yapo Paris, sasa Agakhan Tanzania branch siyo tawi kama lilivyo tawi la Roman Catholics.
Kwa msingi huo kwanini hizi zisiwe institutional chapters kama zilivyo za kikristoKuna tatizo gani wakristo wakiji-0rganize katika makundi yao to forge ahead their agenda! what's wrong with that.
Kama waislam hawataki kuunda organization zao, should that be a national problem or their own problems?

Hata hivyo mbona kuna Taasisi ya baraza kuu la waislam, BAKWATA,Shura za Maimam, Bohaora community, Islamilia community, Shia community, Tareq, Istiqama, UAMSHO, Africa Muslim agency n.k. na hakuna anayehojia uwepo wake kidini.

Mwandishi anafanya comparison ya dini bila kuangalia mapungufu yatokanayo na comaprison yake.
Upotoshaji wa kiwango kizuri sana na wa kulaaniwa kwa vile hausimamni katika ukweliAnachotaka ni kuwachangaya wasomaji ili abaki na agenda yake.

Hizo organization za kikristo zina affiliation na global institutions kama zenyewe na si kama serikali.
Hakuna kibali kilichotolewa kwa Lutheran kuungana na world council of churches of Lutheran. Hizo ni intiative zao.
Wala serikali haijawazuia Waislam wa Tanzania kujiunga na world institutions kama walivyojiunga na IDBA au world musim council.

Kinachokatazwa ni kujiunga kwa institution za kiislam au kikristo kwa kupitia serikali na wala siyo zenyewe kufanya mawasiliano yaoTazama, Nigeria yenye populous muslim ni mwanachama wa Commonwealth kama ilivyo Bangladesh, Pakistan na India.

Pakistan yenye 96% waislam na watu 180 milioni ambao kwa kutazama percentage ni sawa na watu milion 176 ni mwanachama wa Common wealth. Yaani population ya Pakistan ni sawa na population nzima ya Tanzania bila kujali dini mara 4.

Halafu ukitaka kujua upuuzi wa huyu mwandishi kama si wendawazimu, kuwa mwanachama wa common wealth kunafuata nchi zilizokuwa chini ya Malkia na wala si kuwa ni chini ya kanisa la Anglican.
Kuna Francophone n.k. ambazo zinawanachama kama ilivyo commonwealth.

Hivi Arab League inaendeshwa kwa dini au ni kwa utaratibu gani.
Hapa anataka kufanya stupid and crazy insinuation ambayo mtu mwenye akili timamu ataendelea kusoma ili kujua kiwango cha wendawazimu wa mwandishi wala si kuongeza maarifaNo University in this planet which enrolls students from the heaven or streets.

Kama shule inafungwa kwasababu hakuna wanafunzi ni ujinga uliobobea kutegemea kuwa mtu atapa wanafunzi chuo kikuu.
The research should tell more about primary and secondary education where students are prepare for university level Ni ujinga mwingine wa huyu mwandishi.

Hivi kuna mtu ana degree au Diploma aliyeajiriwa kama dereva au messenger.
Kama watoto hawaendi shule in the end they will pay the cost, simple! It's natural justice nothing more nothing less.

Kama shule zinageuka kuwa vijiwe vya wahuni the natural justice will say it all.
Mwandishi anataka watu hasa wasiofikiri waamini kuwa kuna mwislam mwenye PhD aliyewahi kuwa dereva! stupid!Another gaffe! Tatizo la waislam ni kupeleka watoto shule, kuwa na strong organization, kusimamia shule zitoe watoto wenye elimu, kuwa na vyuo vya ufundi, kuhimiza wajiendeleze kwenda college n.k.
Tatizo si kuwa na waziri au katibu mkuu.

Hivi nusu ya baraza la mawaziri likiwa waislam, wale watoto maia tatu kule kilwa walioacha shule watanufaika na nini.
Hivi katibu mkuu anasaidiaje waislam katika kuondokana na matatizo yao ya elimu.

If someone out there is not appreciating the source of the problem then that person is a problem ab initio.Mwandishi na waziri Mwinyi Mzale haionekani kama kuna anayeweza kumsaidia mwenzake kufikiri.

Hawa wajinga wamesahau kuwa Gharib Bilal makamu wa rais aliwahi kuwa katibu mkuu wa wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Lakini upumbavu zaidi ni pale mtu anapodai kuwa Zanzibar inachangia wizara ya elimu ya juu.
Mwandishi hajui kuwa Zanzibar haina bajeti ya elimu ya juu tangu mwaka 1964, bajeti ya wizara ya mambo ya ndani, wala ulinzi na uslama.

Hakuna, narudia hakuna siku SMZ imewahi kuchangia elimu ya juu. Kinyume chake wanafunzi wa ZNZ wanapewa upendeleo wa kuingia elimu ya juu hata kama wana division karibu na sifuri.
Wanafunzi wa Zanzibar wanalipiwa na serikali ya muungano licha ya ukweli kuwa ZNZ inapata mgao wake kutoka muungano.

Asilimia 98 ya viongozi wa ZNZ wamesoma, narudia wamesoma bure kabisa na wala hawadaiwi kama walivyo watoto wa Tanganyika. Ni ujinga wa hali juu sana kuudanganya umma na hilo litawezekana kwa wapuuzi.

Watu wenye akili zao watasoma hili na kudharau hata kile chenye thamani ndani yake. Absolutely stupid!Mwandishi ameshindwa kuelewa kuwa ZNZ wamepewa fursa ya kujitoa katika muungano, wamegoma wanataka mkataba! sasa kama wanaonewa wanasubiri nini.

Lengo la mwandishi ni kujenga dhana isiyokuwepo kuwa waislam wanaonewa popote walipo.
Huu ni udanganyifu wa dhahiri, ni uongo na ubazazi kwasababu kipande hiki tu kinaonyesha jinsi gani mwandishi alivyomchonganishi, mdanganyifu achilia mbali mzandiki.

Watanzania watu kama hawa watatufanya tuchapane mapanga na baadaye tutakapotambua kuwa walikuwa wapuuzi waliojua kutumia kalam zao vema basi tutakuwa tumeshapotea njia.

Tusimame pamoja na kuwaambia watu wa aina hii kuwa hawasimamii dini kwasababu dini inakataza uongo uliojaa katika ndimi zao. Dini zinakataza uzushi, usengenyaji, fitna n.k. sasa huyu asiyeweza kusimamia haya anawezaje kusimama na kusema anasema kwa niaba ya dini.

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Umepoteza muda wako bure kukata vipande vya hoja na kutengenezea ngano zako umechelewa sana.

Wewe kwako Nyerere ni mtume huwezi kukubali chochote kuwa aliwafanyia dhulma Waislam bahati nzuri hata kwenye huu mjadala wote nyie ambao mnakubaliana ni Wakirsto watupu wewe huwezi kuwasemea Waislam matatizo yao hata siku moja ni wapuuzi tu ndiyo watakubaliana na wewe.

Cha kushukuru ujumbe umefika na Waislam wanajitambua hivi sasa huwezi kusema matizo ya Waislam ni kupeleka watoto shule huu ni upuuzi na ujinga wa kiwango cha juu.

Waislam huko nyuma wanafelishwa darasa la saba unaambiwa tu umefeli yanabandikwa majina ya waliopasi ukiyasoma ni Wakirsto watupu hakuna alama zozote za mitihani kuonyesha mwanafunzi amepasi vipi au amefeli vipi kwa viwango gani mnaambiwa tu majina yametoka yamebandikwa manispaa au kata nendeni mkayasome.

Wewe kwa sababu ya Ukirsto wako umekubeba kupata elimu unaona hakuna tatizo endelea kujidanganya.

Jasusi said:

Nguruvi3,
Nimemwomba Ritz atuambie amenukuu maandishi ya nani lakini mpaka sasa yuko kimya. Nina hakika haya ni maoni ya Mohamed Said kuhusu kitabu cha van Bergen na yametiwa chumvi kukidhi lengo lake. Niko tayari kuomba msamaha kama kweli haya si maandishi ya Mohamed Said. He is wrong on Biafra, he is wrong on the British cropping up Nyerere and he is wrong on the motives for the east african federation.

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Jasusi,

Inaonekana unamuogopa sana Mohamed Said kila nondo unadhani kaandika yeye kwa taarifa yako tu Nyerere ni bora kwenu siyo kwa jamii za Kiislam.

Ritz said:

Umepoteza muda wako bure kukata vipande vya hoja na kutengenezea ngano zako umechelewa sana.

Wewe kwako Nyerere ni mtume huwezi kukubali chochote kuwa aliwafanyia dhulma Waislam bahati nzuri hata kwenye huu mjadala wote nyie ambao mnakubaliana ni Wakirsto watupu wewe huwezi kuwasemea Waislam matatizo yao hata siku moja ni wapuuzi tu ndiyo watakubaliana na wewe.

Cha kushukuru ujumbe umefika na Waislam wanajitambua hivi sasa huwezi kusema matizo ya Waislam ni kupeleka watoto shule huu ni upuuzi na ujinga wa kiwango cha juu.

Waislam huko nyuma wanafelishwa darasa la saba unaambiwa tu umefeli yanabandikwa majina ya waliopasi ukiyasoma ni Wakirsto watupu hakuna alama zozote za mitihani kuonyesha mwanafunzi amepasi vipi au amefeli vipi kwa viwango mnaambiwa tu majina yametoka yamebandikwa manispaa.

Wewe kwa sababu ya Ukirsto wako umekubeba kupata elimu unaona hakuna tatizo endelea kujidanganya.

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Ritz,
Nasubiri majibu yangu. Yale uliyotubandikia si maandishi ya van Bergen. Tuambie ni nani aliyeandika?