Andrew Nyerere
JF-Expert Member
- Nov 10, 2008
- 3,007
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This article is one of three. Lakini hata hii moja wengine watafikiria it is too long. Kwa mantiki hiyo basi,tusiweke hapa speech za JK.
ON THE END OF THE LINE
The following is a small portion of a recent 1995 2-hour interview with Dr. William OConnor on The End
of the Line radio program with Jeff Rense. Information on how to order a cassette of the complete
interview appears at the end of this transcript.
J.R.: What are we as a species on this planet facing with HIV and the AlDS epidemic?
W.O.: Well, it sounds like alarmist verbiage, or rhetoric, but, in fact, if you understand the microbiology
and the epidemiology of viral diseases, we could potentially be facing annihilation as a species.
Now, that comes as quite a surprise to some people that someone would commit themselves to a statement of that magnitude. But if you consider how we know the virus is spread: it is very easily spread by
sexual body fluidsand in so finite and small a volume of body fluids such as that which is transferred
between a woman to a man during a single sexual event; also, the small amount of saliva or body fluid
transferred from a baby to its mother during breast feeding.
In one Russian incident, 14% of mothers who breast fed their babies got AIDS from their babies because it is that contagious from saliva.
So, here we have a virus that we know without a shadow of a doubt is capable of being spread quite
efficiently through heterosexual sex and any sexual body fluid secretion. Be realistic and objective about
what actual behaviors we require to exist. We, as a species, require the safe passage of body fluids in
order to procreate and continue as a species.
Now, we have a retrovirus. And if you boil it right down to what it really is, it is a contagious mutation.
It is a rogue piece of genetic material that can transfer from one person to another and once it gets into a
person, it gets inside that persons chromosomes. It actually links up with the genetic material of that
person and becomes a part of that persons genetic code for, as far as we are concerned, eternity.
There isnt a person in this audience, in this world, or probably in history except for several events that
some people might dispute, that dont owe their basic existence to the safe passage of uninfected body
fluids. We have to have sex to exist on this planet.
So, if you look at sex as a function of humanity instead of recreation, a procreational necessity, it is as essential as breathing. If you dont breathe, you die out. If you dont have sex, you die out too, it just takes you longer. If you cant have sex safely, and that when you do, you roll some dice and take a probability that you might die as a consequence of it, or infect your genetic make-up, its only a matter of time before everyone is infected.
There is no vaccine on the foreseeable horizon. And there is no cure. Well have a cure for AIDS when
you can go into the doctors office and change the color of your eyes because, in that event you will be
going inside the cells of your eyes and changing the genetic code. Thats what you have to do to cure an
AIDS infection. Anything less is just a treatment and that only prolongs the life of the individual so that he
or she can infect more people.
J.R.: Dr. OConnor, where are we with the AIDS epidemic in America right now?
W.O.: Were in the darkin the dark. We dont even know how many people in this country are
infected. We dont know who is infected. I could tell you who is infected with syphilis; I could tell you who
103 is, or was infected, with gonorrhea. I could give you those statistics and those figures immediatelyand
on a county level. But not with respect to HIV and the HIV infection rate. And thats a crime.
In America, were so smart, were stupid, and we are allowing ourselves to be manipulated by the
people who really have shown their ability to control the media in this epidemic. I dont need to tell you
who that is or which population group has done that to this country, but someday people are going to look
back on this epidemic and put 2 and 2 together and say, Those people were responsible for more deaths
than Stalin, Hitler, and Atilla the Hun all together.
J.R.: There is a story in the Washington Post today praising former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop as
being one of the great medical and health leaders of this past quarter century at least; as the man who
brought sensitivity and awareness to the general public about AIDS and HIV infection when he was
working in the Reagan Administration.
W.O.: Hitler is to mass death as C. Everett Koop is to mass death in America. That man is responsible for
more deaths, preventable deaths, in this country than Hitler killed during the Second World War. And
thats right now.
He sold out this country. He had the power to contain this epidemic! He had the knowledge, he had the
figures, he had everything he needed, and he subverted the Reagan Administration. And thats why he was
kicked out as Surgeon General.
Ill make a public statement that C. Everett Koop is criminally negligent and deserves nothing more than a
good trial and prison for what he did to this country. And I hope he does sue me because then Ill be able
to get the information into court in front of 12 reasonable people and see what the outcome is. Its my
belief that the outcome will show him to be criminally negligent.
He lied to the Reagan Administration so that he could publish a little news letter that went out to every
home in the United States saying, Dont worry. Unless youre a homosexual or an I.V. drug user, this isnt
your disease. As far as Im concerned, he said, You cannot be harmed by caring for people with HIV.
Well, why dont you tell that to all the health care workers who are now testing positive for TB because
they got TB when HIV-infected people came into the clinics and coughed.
Because people like (Dr.) Lorraine Day and I were shut up and stifled and wouldnt be listened to early
on in the epidemic when it was obvious the faulty immune systems of these people put other people at risk
for every other infectious disease. They ignored that and went on with business as usual. Literally hundreds
of thousands of people got infections they didnt have to get.
J.R.: Exactly why do people who have HIV infections and AIDS, either first, second or third stage AIDS,
why are they posing a bigger and bigger risk to the uninfected portion of the population?
W.O.: Because there are so many of them now, without any ability to kill germs when those germs are in
their bodies. They, in essence, become culture media for viruses, pathogenic bacteria, protozoans, and
funguses and so forth which can be communicated to other people through what they have termed casual contactlike coughing on a bus. Just recently, one of the television stations ran a story about how airline travel is hazardous to your health because they recirculate the air and there are no filters to filter out 104 bacteria; and you can get influenza and you can get TB.
Four people came down with TB because one person on the flight had TB and was coughingand gave four other people TB.
The tragedy is, when a person with HIV who is dying with AIDS in extremis is bumped off a flight
because hes too sick, the airline gets sued! And then the airline has to crawl on its hands and knees and
beg forgiveness and has to let people like that on their planes. The solution is to find out whos infected
(with HIV) and if they have TB, they dont get to go anywhere.
J.R.: Were not talking about the TB that Doc Holliday had in Gunfight At the O.K. Corral; we are not
talking about MDR TB which is a new strain which is 80-90% fatal. Its multi-drug resistant tuberculosis.
W.O.: Right! 89% of the time people get multiple drug resistant TB, they die. The scariest thing is that we
are being pushed right back into the 19th Century. If you continue to use antibiotics in a person who
doesnt have the immune system infantry to kill and clean up the last TB bacteria, the consequence is that when it comes back, it comes back with a resistance because if it didnt have that resistance it wouldnt have been the last survivor.
Nothing is really ever said to draw the connection between AIDS and the comeback of TB. And thats
wrong, because years ago we should have contained this virus; we knew that was going to happen. I knew
that was going to happen and I wrote in 1990 that it was happening. And nothing has been done. That is
so tragic because lots of old people are dying right now. They dont know whats happening. They think
they get a cold and then it goes to pneumonia and they die, and then their families mourn, etc. What they
dont know is that everybody is sick.
When you and I were kids did they ever close the school because of disease? No. Do you want to know
why that is happening now? Because there are so many (HIV-infected) people out there who dont create
neutralizing antibodies to those viruses, and consequently the viruses live within them and mutate around
the immune system.
J.R.: These are people with HIV infections?
W.O.: These are people with HIV.
J.R.: Who dont know it. And they dont show it. And you cant tell (by looking). And furthermore,
nobodys talking.
W.O.: Thats right. And no one will address that issue in this country and do something about it because,
if they address the issue, the only solution is mandatory testing. And not just line up all the 80-year-olds at
a public health office and test them. Mandatory means if your doctor says you should get an HIV test, or
if you are getting married you should get an HIV test, then you get it. And you cant refuse. Because then
we would know, at least on a population level, how many people are infected.
J.R.: Wed need to have a mechanism to report these test results to some county, state, or federal agency,
as well.
W.O.: Thats right. How many people do you think are having a sexual relationship when they get tested
positive and dont tell their partner? Thats what contact tracing is all about. Thats how we were able
to reduce the incidence of syphilis in this country dramatically. If someone had syphilis, the public health
department went out and said, OK, who are you having sex with? Tell us who so we can tell them. OK.
Get that person tested. And you contain the disease.
In this epidemic (AIDS), we have totally abandoned all the knowledge and experience and customary
practice of public health in this country. Abandoned it! In one of the most devastating epidemics ever to
be seen on the face of this Earth. It is insane! And I can not adequately express my profound dismay over
how many people are dying simply from the spill-off diseases.
J.R.: So, people with HIV infection end up with a compromised immune system. They can no longer fight
off disease. The organisms, viral or bacterial, set up shop in those people and actually, in many cases, will
mutate. They are certainly available to anyone who comes around them and what we are seeing here is a
reduction in the entire immune competency of this population.
W.O.: Of our entire country. In about 1987, I have videos of me speaking out on these issues and I said
that in our lifetimes we are going to see dead people being stacked like cordwood. Remember Rwanda?
What happened in Rwanda is that cholera broke out in a camp, in a number of refugee camps, and people
were dying like a thousand a day. One of the persons who was interviewed (in a broadcast news story)
was a health care worker, and in a very frightened voice this health care worker said, We are seeing HIV
seropositivity rates of 60% in these people. Thats amazing.
We never thought it was that high. We
thought it would be somewhere at the most in the range of 30%. But 60% is just unbelievable! And then,
very shortly thereafter, all the Westerners left the area. Now, not a single country on the face of the Earth
will send its people into Central Africa. Its my belief that what those health care workers saw down there
was so frightening that they couldnt keep the people in there.
When a homosexual gets into the public health department, he brings in someone who is sensitive to
homosexual concerns and who has the politically correct view towards AIDS. And thats why our public
health system is so damaged.
J.R.: Weve talked before about the Centers For Disease Control, also known, of course, as the CDC,
and how it has really been influenced by politically correct individuals. Whats the status down there
now?
W.O.: You know, I couldnt pretend to tell youexcept that they are still holding up condoms and
throwing out the condoms (to everyone). They have yet to tell people the most important thing you could
possibly tell a sexually active person: Test your partner BEFORE you have sex with them. If they are
positive, DONT have sex with them. But thats not what they are saying! They are saying, Use a
condom! Use a condom!. Well, let me tell you something: condoms have been around for decades and
nobody used them. The reasons being: they are uncomfortable; they take away from the sex act; and they
dont work!
Oddly enough, guess what? In about a space of seven years, a third of the people (in couples) who had
one partner positive and the other person negative, who used condoms consistently, nonetheless went on
to infect their partners. And it was about the same for men infecting woman as for women infecting men.
Now, if you are a public health official then thats what you have decided to give the American public: a
condom to protect them from what appears to be a uniformly fatal disease. And thats the (only) choice
you havenot quarantine, not contact tracing, not reportability, not anything that is traditional, but handing
out condoms, then you are doing a disservice to the people you have been entrusted with. I cannot think
of a single public health officer who is not guilty of that crime.
As I see it, its a crime. I feel it is criminal neglect when you know whats right but to keep your job and to not have a bunch of homosexuals picketing your office and to be politically correct, you are staying silent. And that is a tragedy.
And itsalmost uniform. There hasnt yet been a public health official to stand up and say, Wait a minute folks,what we are doing is wrong. And if there is, the media wont let him speak anyway. So, hes isolated and they cut him off. And thats it. Thats what happens to people who even try. So, nobody tries. And our
society is on the verge of disaster.
J.R.: A sneeze. A human being sneezes and projects up to 50,000 microdroplets 6-10 feet from the body
at speeds of up to 100 miles an hour. Pretty amazing.
W.O.: Whats amazing is the proof. Numerous events have occurred where an HIV/TB infected individual
has gone into a clinic and infected everyone in the clinic. That happens so often that they have
stopped writing about it!
J.R.: Can the AIDS virus, HIV, inhabit a tuberculosis organism?
W.O.: The AIDS virus is about the size of a burr on a dog. If the dog is the size of a TB bacillus, the AIDS
virus is about the size of a burr. And theres no reason to believe that those (HIV) organisms cant attach
to the coat of the larger organism and then travel with the other organism piggy-back style. And thats
been seen in trichomonas which is a protozoan infection largely causing vaginitis in women. They have
found that HIV particles stick to the outside of the trichomonas organism and as it swims through the
secretions, it carries with it HIV.
J.R.: Now, I hadnt heard that. Thats very alarming. Dr. Robert Strecker made that proposal, that HIV
can inhabit the tuberculosis organism and will, in fact, at one point in the future be proven to do just that.
The (AIDS) laws on the books almost defy description, the illogical nature of them, the irrational approach
to this disease which, again, is being treated like its a social problem.
W.O.: The consequence of that is going to be so devastating. About 50 years from now, theres going to
be a lot less black people around, I can tell you that right now. And maybe thats why, I dont know. I
suspect that there are some bigshots up there that are just looking back and saying, Lets just see whos
getting it. Well, who is it? Oh, the inner city ignorant blacks and the welfare people. In 20 years, theyll
be gone. Whats wrong with that?
J.R.: The other side of the issue is that a lot of pharmaceuticals and medical care providers are making a
lot of money during this epidemic.
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W.O.: Let me tell you! The amount of fortunes that have been made on HIV is incredible and unspeakable.
In fact, there was this guy from Merck who got up at a doctors convention I was attending and he
was telling us about all the possibilities of where we could attack the virus and how the vaccines would
do this, and how they are working on this vaccine and that vaccine. I went up to him and I said, Yes, but
you know that those wont work. You know that the virus will mutate right around vaccines. He said,
Yeah, I know that. I said, Well, why didnt you tell this group of doctors here? He looked at me very
plainly and said, Because I have payments on my house to make. If I were to say that, Merck would fire
me. Im not here to tell the truth. I am here to tell what Merck wants me to tell these doctors and thats
what I am employed to do.
A person without insurance, or even with insurance, but lets say without insurance, who has to go into the
hospital system is paying for the unpaid care of other people who couldnt pay for their care. Well, the
average cost of an AIDS patient, diagnosis to death, is $109,000. Do you know anyone who has $109,000
in assets? No. Where does that come from? It comes from YOU and me. We are paying through the
nose for this disease and for the stupidity in which it is being managed. And there is a good probability that
we will run out of money because there is no benefit to be gained in that $109,000 because at the end of
it, you bury the product. You dont get spin-off technologies or any real beneficial things. Nothing
comes of that. You might as we just dig a hole in the ground and throw the money in the ground. I call it
the AIDS hole. They are just throwing money down the AIDS hole.
J.R.: $109,000 per AIDS patientlets multiply that by 5 or 10 million cases.
W.O.: Forget it! Just multiply it by the 400,000 AIDS cases there are now. Multiply 400,000 times
100,000 and thats the health care bill for one single disease that gets everything. There are little brochures
that are sent to me quite frequently about the programs where, If you have a person who is HIV
positive, just call this 1-800 number and hell get all his medicines for free. Thats just great. I dont get
my medicines for free. The people who I see in my clinic dont get their medicines for free. But an HIV
person? Oh, theyre special! They get everything! And thats wrong.
J.R.: As a doctor, that obviously bothers you a great deal.
W.O.: Yes, you know why? Because people come up to me and say, Dr. OConnor, I dont have money
for that drug. And I dont know what to tell them. I dont tell them, Look, go out and get HIV and then
theyll pay for it. A day doesnt go by where a patientI work in a poverty clinican indigent clinic
where a lot of people are just barely able to pay their $25even if they dont, they are still seen anyway
and those people look at me in all sincerity and say, I cant pay for that drug, Doctor. And here its an
antibiotic for their bronchitis to keep it from turning into pneumonia. I just dont know what to do. And
then I look around and say, Well, this one AIDS patient, hes taking $109,000. Well, three AIDS
patients and I could run a clinic! I could put a doctor in every town in the country that has three AIDS
patients and take care of the entire community on $200,000 to run the building and $100,000 for the
doctor. Are we doing that? No, we are just shoveling money down the AIDS hole. And thats sick. Im
sorry and thats why Im a persona non grata in the AIDS community.
J.R.: Going hand-in-hand with the lack of AIDS coverage in the media in the last 6 months to a year, I
think we have to consider the small but rather loud group of people that adhere to the theories and tenets
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of Dr. Peter Duesberg, the retrovirologist from Berkeley, and Brian Ellison, the researcher. Together they
have put out a book called Why We Will Never Win the War On AIDS. In that book, among other things,
they say that the evidence is that AIDS [should read HIV?] virus is actually harmless; it is not a factor
in developing AIDS.
W.O.: I dont understand how a supposedly intelligent and credentialed man can be so stupid. His
(Duesbergs) major point is that Kochs Postulates have not been satisfied. And that means that you have
to take a clean, pure sample of HIV and a healthy human host and inject (that person) and wait and see if
they get AIDS. Well, we did that. We did that with blood users in this country!
J.R.: Over and over again.
W.O.: 25,000 of them! Good, clean Americans (hemophiliacs) who trusted our blood supplywho
trusted the Red CrossCCBC and the AABBthe blood organizations who are there to protect the
blood recipients in this country. Well, you know what they did? They killed about 50,000 people! Because
they wouldnt believe AIDS was real either. Because it would have cost them money to believe that.
They would have had to change their policy and start kicking out homosexuals and testing for other bloodborn
viruses.
J.R.: Of which there are many.
W.O.: Of which there are many! There are a lot of people who want to believe them (Duesberg and
Ellison). Say, there is a person who is HIV-infected and youve got ten people on one side of the room
saying (to him), Youve got a lethal virus and you cant have sex anymore, and you can give it to other
people by passing blood and body fluids. And then you have another person saying, Thats all not true!
Who do you think that HIV positive person is going to believe!? Hes going to go out and buy the book
and then hes going to go downtown and have sex because now he knows that hes not going to kill the
other person hes going to have sex with. Duesberg and those people are feeding denial. And they are
making a good profit at it; they are making money selling those books. You dont think they do that out of
the goodness of their hearts. No, they are making a lot of money and getting speaking engagements all
over.
As far as I am concerned, they ought to let him infect himself. They ought to go on Nightline or Good
Morning America and have the CDC hand him a pure quantity of HIV and say, O.K., Dr. Duesberg, put
your money where your mouth is. Inject this into yourself. And see what he does. See if he has the guts.
He wouldnt. He wouldnt do that!
J.R.: We dont even have to go that far. Couldnt we simply rig up a test with mosquitoes which have been
allowed to feed on AIDS-contaminated blood and put them in a big beaker and say, Alright, stick your
hand in there, if AIDS is not transmissible by insectswhich continues to be the party linethat insects
do not transmit this virus.
All the insects in Africa that have been known to bite people have been found by the Pasteur Institute of
France to have at least the DNA of HIV in their bodies, if not the active virus itself. Over here, mosquitoes
can feed on AIDS-infected blood by biting someone who is infected and retain up to 5-8 white blood cells
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in their stomach for up to 8 days and regurgitate that into the next person they bite. They also have a flying
range of up to 40 miles, so the vector potential in spreading this virus is clear and obvious, not to mention
the fact that mosquitoes are already known to spread over 80 different viruses and bacteria, many of them
retroviruses.
W.O.: Jeff, if they knew that insects could spread HIV, they would certainly protect themselves, too,
wouldnt they? And they wouldnt hide that information, would they!? Well, heres the they: You
mentioned the Pasteur Institute, it wasnt so much the Pasteur Institute, it was Dr. Jean-Claude Chermann
who went to Africa and did the studies and found that HIV was in every insect that had contact with
human blood. The question is: can that (HIV) come out of their genome? Is it first spread through to the
male line and is it found in the nonbloodsucking mosquitoesthe male mosquitoes? Guess what? It was
in the male population of mosquitoes.
The big question is: can active, infective vital particles get out of that (male) mosquito? When Jean-Claude
Chermann was asked by me, in person, when I met him in Marseilles and toured his facility, he said he had
received death threats. And he elected to stop studying it .
The scientific question as to whether insects can carry HIV is (officially) unanswered. And it is unanswered
because the leading virologist in the world (on the subject) cared more about his family and
himself. I dont blame him! If somebody told me, You keep up that line of research and we will kill you.
Id stop, too.
J.R.: Dr. Chermann made the point with his published data, though. And, clearly, there are two means of
insect transmission: mechanical and biological. And you just dont have a mosquito that transmits the
malaria organism, which is gigantic by comparison, and then tell someone with a straight face that this
insect cannot transmit a retrovirus. Its absurd.
W.O.: Yes, its absurd. In Africa, in 1981, no one was infected, not even the prostitutes. Now, in Central
Africa, you can see up to 60% of given populations infected. Im saying that in a decade, you cant rely on
just sex (transmission) to do that. And it isnt hard to catch! That is what Surgeon General Koop told us,
Hard to catch! Hard to catch! You have to have sex with someones rectum to get it. Or, inject blood
or drink a quart of saliva in order to even get a probability of one viral paticle infecting you. Well, all of
that was lies! But yet, he was the Surgeon General and he gets $10,000 per speaking engagement. He
didnt do so badly, did he?
J.R.: The International Red Cross, by the way, receives more than $4 billion in revenues each year from
around the world.
W.O.: And you know what? No one knows where the money goes! I was involved in a case against the
Red Cross as an expert witness and you know what happened? When they tried to find out where the
money goes and how much money the Red Cross makes off its (blood) concessions in this country, which
is about 50% of all the blood marketed in this country, they (the Red Cross) got an injunction keep from
having to tell where the money goes. There is an incredible amount of money going to the American Red
Cross and the International Red Cross.
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When the Red Cross comes to help you out in the flood, it isnt there just to help you, you sign a paper that
you are going to pay them back the money or whatever they give you. Its not free! My Dads great story
about that is that when he was going overseas in the Second World War, the Salvation Army was over
there handing out donuts and coffee and little sewing kits and stuff like that to every trooper mounting a
troop ship. And the Red Cross was there, too, selling donuts for a nickel! The servicemen thought that
was a little rude.
J.R.: I would say that the blood business may be the dirtiest of all when one figures that blood donations
are gathered in foreign countries, broken down into various products, and then shipped all around the
world and used in many different processes to make blood products for people.
W.O.: Oh, yes. The hemophiliacs in Great Britain all died because of the incompetence and the lies and
the subterfuge of the blood products industry in this country. Those people were just criminal. They had
a bunch of dried product that wasnt heat-treated but it was shelf; it had a shelf life of a couple years or
so. Suddenly, they were told about AIDS. If they had acted, they would have said, Sorry, we are going
to have a shortage of this product for a while. From now on, until we get clean product to give you, we
want you to use cryo-precipitate. Or just be real careful and dont fall down and dont bruise yourself so
that you bleed into your knee. Did they do that? No. They hid it (the AIDS risk) from the public and
used up their inventory of infected product. And they killed off their market! Can you believe that? They
killed off the very people they depended upon. Thats how stupid these people are.
J.R.: In elementary schools: a child in school now, in this state, has no legal right to know if the child next
to him or her is infected with HIV. If a school district allows children with AIDS or HIV-infected children
into the classroom, what can a parent do to protect his or her children?
W.O.: Nothing! Theres nothing you can do. Theyve rigged the game against you. Youll never find out,
for one. If you do find out and you act against it (the policy), everyone is going to hate you because you are
picking on some poor sick person who cant give you that disease! So, youll be soundly trounced. My
solution would be to take your kid out of the school. If hes sitting next to someone with HIV, the other
infections that kid carries are going to be transmitted to your child if he plays with him or comes into contact
with him. And that means every virus that comes around, whether its a common cold, pneumonia, or
measles, or you name it, they are a source for it.
They should not be in schools as far as Im concerned, especially at the teenage level for the obvious
reasons that teenagers have sex. And they wouldnt have sex with any given particular person if they
werent forced by law to be there and put in contact with that particular person. I think the state and the
schools have a duty to find who is infected among that population of sexually active teenagers and remove
them from the schools. But they are not going to do that.
I tried. About 1987, I had the Vacaville Community School System, the only school district in the state that
would not allow AIDS patients or AIDS infected people to be in the classroom. Well, political power and
intimidation won out and several years later, they reversed their policy so that all the schools in the state
were conforming. There are so many homosexuals in the state education office that it astounded me. It
was obvious to me that the school system was heavily influenced by that contingent of our society. And the
consequence is that you are not going to see any real exclusion happening in this state.
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J.R.: A couple of years ago, I went to an AIDS Information Workshop at a local elementary school
district and a PTA videotape was screened for those gathered there. That videotape showed a child in
elementary school coming home complaining to his mother that his friend in school had AIDS, and could he
get AIDS from his friend? The video tape then went to great lengths to explain how there was no possible
way that could happen. It even suggested that...
W.O.: It encouraged the kid to hug him!
J. R.: And, to share ice cream cones.
W.O.: They even go one step farther and say, How would you feel if you had AIDS, wouldnt you want
somebody to hug you!?
ON THE END OF THE LINE
The following is a small portion of a recent 1995 2-hour interview with Dr. William OConnor on The End
of the Line radio program with Jeff Rense. Information on how to order a cassette of the complete
interview appears at the end of this transcript.
J.R.: What are we as a species on this planet facing with HIV and the AlDS epidemic?
W.O.: Well, it sounds like alarmist verbiage, or rhetoric, but, in fact, if you understand the microbiology
and the epidemiology of viral diseases, we could potentially be facing annihilation as a species.
Now, that comes as quite a surprise to some people that someone would commit themselves to a statement of that magnitude. But if you consider how we know the virus is spread: it is very easily spread by
sexual body fluidsand in so finite and small a volume of body fluids such as that which is transferred
between a woman to a man during a single sexual event; also, the small amount of saliva or body fluid
transferred from a baby to its mother during breast feeding.
In one Russian incident, 14% of mothers who breast fed their babies got AIDS from their babies because it is that contagious from saliva.
So, here we have a virus that we know without a shadow of a doubt is capable of being spread quite
efficiently through heterosexual sex and any sexual body fluid secretion. Be realistic and objective about
what actual behaviors we require to exist. We, as a species, require the safe passage of body fluids in
order to procreate and continue as a species.
Now, we have a retrovirus. And if you boil it right down to what it really is, it is a contagious mutation.
It is a rogue piece of genetic material that can transfer from one person to another and once it gets into a
person, it gets inside that persons chromosomes. It actually links up with the genetic material of that
person and becomes a part of that persons genetic code for, as far as we are concerned, eternity.
There isnt a person in this audience, in this world, or probably in history except for several events that
some people might dispute, that dont owe their basic existence to the safe passage of uninfected body
fluids. We have to have sex to exist on this planet.
So, if you look at sex as a function of humanity instead of recreation, a procreational necessity, it is as essential as breathing. If you dont breathe, you die out. If you dont have sex, you die out too, it just takes you longer. If you cant have sex safely, and that when you do, you roll some dice and take a probability that you might die as a consequence of it, or infect your genetic make-up, its only a matter of time before everyone is infected.
There is no vaccine on the foreseeable horizon. And there is no cure. Well have a cure for AIDS when
you can go into the doctors office and change the color of your eyes because, in that event you will be
going inside the cells of your eyes and changing the genetic code. Thats what you have to do to cure an
AIDS infection. Anything less is just a treatment and that only prolongs the life of the individual so that he
or she can infect more people.
J.R.: Dr. OConnor, where are we with the AIDS epidemic in America right now?
W.O.: Were in the darkin the dark. We dont even know how many people in this country are
infected. We dont know who is infected. I could tell you who is infected with syphilis; I could tell you who
103 is, or was infected, with gonorrhea. I could give you those statistics and those figures immediatelyand
on a county level. But not with respect to HIV and the HIV infection rate. And thats a crime.
In America, were so smart, were stupid, and we are allowing ourselves to be manipulated by the
people who really have shown their ability to control the media in this epidemic. I dont need to tell you
who that is or which population group has done that to this country, but someday people are going to look
back on this epidemic and put 2 and 2 together and say, Those people were responsible for more deaths
than Stalin, Hitler, and Atilla the Hun all together.
J.R.: There is a story in the Washington Post today praising former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop as
being one of the great medical and health leaders of this past quarter century at least; as the man who
brought sensitivity and awareness to the general public about AIDS and HIV infection when he was
working in the Reagan Administration.
W.O.: Hitler is to mass death as C. Everett Koop is to mass death in America. That man is responsible for
more deaths, preventable deaths, in this country than Hitler killed during the Second World War. And
thats right now.
He sold out this country. He had the power to contain this epidemic! He had the knowledge, he had the
figures, he had everything he needed, and he subverted the Reagan Administration. And thats why he was
kicked out as Surgeon General.
Ill make a public statement that C. Everett Koop is criminally negligent and deserves nothing more than a
good trial and prison for what he did to this country. And I hope he does sue me because then Ill be able
to get the information into court in front of 12 reasonable people and see what the outcome is. Its my
belief that the outcome will show him to be criminally negligent.
He lied to the Reagan Administration so that he could publish a little news letter that went out to every
home in the United States saying, Dont worry. Unless youre a homosexual or an I.V. drug user, this isnt
your disease. As far as Im concerned, he said, You cannot be harmed by caring for people with HIV.
Well, why dont you tell that to all the health care workers who are now testing positive for TB because
they got TB when HIV-infected people came into the clinics and coughed.
Because people like (Dr.) Lorraine Day and I were shut up and stifled and wouldnt be listened to early
on in the epidemic when it was obvious the faulty immune systems of these people put other people at risk
for every other infectious disease. They ignored that and went on with business as usual. Literally hundreds
of thousands of people got infections they didnt have to get.
J.R.: Exactly why do people who have HIV infections and AIDS, either first, second or third stage AIDS,
why are they posing a bigger and bigger risk to the uninfected portion of the population?
W.O.: Because there are so many of them now, without any ability to kill germs when those germs are in
their bodies. They, in essence, become culture media for viruses, pathogenic bacteria, protozoans, and
funguses and so forth which can be communicated to other people through what they have termed casual contactlike coughing on a bus. Just recently, one of the television stations ran a story about how airline travel is hazardous to your health because they recirculate the air and there are no filters to filter out 104 bacteria; and you can get influenza and you can get TB.
Four people came down with TB because one person on the flight had TB and was coughingand gave four other people TB.
The tragedy is, when a person with HIV who is dying with AIDS in extremis is bumped off a flight
because hes too sick, the airline gets sued! And then the airline has to crawl on its hands and knees and
beg forgiveness and has to let people like that on their planes. The solution is to find out whos infected
(with HIV) and if they have TB, they dont get to go anywhere.
J.R.: Were not talking about the TB that Doc Holliday had in Gunfight At the O.K. Corral; we are not
talking about MDR TB which is a new strain which is 80-90% fatal. Its multi-drug resistant tuberculosis.
W.O.: Right! 89% of the time people get multiple drug resistant TB, they die. The scariest thing is that we
are being pushed right back into the 19th Century. If you continue to use antibiotics in a person who
doesnt have the immune system infantry to kill and clean up the last TB bacteria, the consequence is that when it comes back, it comes back with a resistance because if it didnt have that resistance it wouldnt have been the last survivor.
Nothing is really ever said to draw the connection between AIDS and the comeback of TB. And thats
wrong, because years ago we should have contained this virus; we knew that was going to happen. I knew
that was going to happen and I wrote in 1990 that it was happening. And nothing has been done. That is
so tragic because lots of old people are dying right now. They dont know whats happening. They think
they get a cold and then it goes to pneumonia and they die, and then their families mourn, etc. What they
dont know is that everybody is sick.
When you and I were kids did they ever close the school because of disease? No. Do you want to know
why that is happening now? Because there are so many (HIV-infected) people out there who dont create
neutralizing antibodies to those viruses, and consequently the viruses live within them and mutate around
the immune system.
J.R.: These are people with HIV infections?
W.O.: These are people with HIV.
J.R.: Who dont know it. And they dont show it. And you cant tell (by looking). And furthermore,
nobodys talking.
W.O.: Thats right. And no one will address that issue in this country and do something about it because,
if they address the issue, the only solution is mandatory testing. And not just line up all the 80-year-olds at
a public health office and test them. Mandatory means if your doctor says you should get an HIV test, or
if you are getting married you should get an HIV test, then you get it. And you cant refuse. Because then
we would know, at least on a population level, how many people are infected.
J.R.: Wed need to have a mechanism to report these test results to some county, state, or federal agency,
as well.
W.O.: Thats right. How many people do you think are having a sexual relationship when they get tested
positive and dont tell their partner? Thats what contact tracing is all about. Thats how we were able
to reduce the incidence of syphilis in this country dramatically. If someone had syphilis, the public health
department went out and said, OK, who are you having sex with? Tell us who so we can tell them. OK.
Get that person tested. And you contain the disease.
In this epidemic (AIDS), we have totally abandoned all the knowledge and experience and customary
practice of public health in this country. Abandoned it! In one of the most devastating epidemics ever to
be seen on the face of this Earth. It is insane! And I can not adequately express my profound dismay over
how many people are dying simply from the spill-off diseases.
J.R.: So, people with HIV infection end up with a compromised immune system. They can no longer fight
off disease. The organisms, viral or bacterial, set up shop in those people and actually, in many cases, will
mutate. They are certainly available to anyone who comes around them and what we are seeing here is a
reduction in the entire immune competency of this population.
W.O.: Of our entire country. In about 1987, I have videos of me speaking out on these issues and I said
that in our lifetimes we are going to see dead people being stacked like cordwood. Remember Rwanda?
What happened in Rwanda is that cholera broke out in a camp, in a number of refugee camps, and people
were dying like a thousand a day. One of the persons who was interviewed (in a broadcast news story)
was a health care worker, and in a very frightened voice this health care worker said, We are seeing HIV
seropositivity rates of 60% in these people. Thats amazing.
We never thought it was that high. We
thought it would be somewhere at the most in the range of 30%. But 60% is just unbelievable! And then,
very shortly thereafter, all the Westerners left the area. Now, not a single country on the face of the Earth
will send its people into Central Africa. Its my belief that what those health care workers saw down there
was so frightening that they couldnt keep the people in there.
When a homosexual gets into the public health department, he brings in someone who is sensitive to
homosexual concerns and who has the politically correct view towards AIDS. And thats why our public
health system is so damaged.
J.R.: Weve talked before about the Centers For Disease Control, also known, of course, as the CDC,
and how it has really been influenced by politically correct individuals. Whats the status down there
now?
W.O.: You know, I couldnt pretend to tell youexcept that they are still holding up condoms and
throwing out the condoms (to everyone). They have yet to tell people the most important thing you could
possibly tell a sexually active person: Test your partner BEFORE you have sex with them. If they are
positive, DONT have sex with them. But thats not what they are saying! They are saying, Use a
condom! Use a condom!. Well, let me tell you something: condoms have been around for decades and
nobody used them. The reasons being: they are uncomfortable; they take away from the sex act; and they
dont work!
Oddly enough, guess what? In about a space of seven years, a third of the people (in couples) who had
one partner positive and the other person negative, who used condoms consistently, nonetheless went on
to infect their partners. And it was about the same for men infecting woman as for women infecting men.
Now, if you are a public health official then thats what you have decided to give the American public: a
condom to protect them from what appears to be a uniformly fatal disease. And thats the (only) choice
you havenot quarantine, not contact tracing, not reportability, not anything that is traditional, but handing
out condoms, then you are doing a disservice to the people you have been entrusted with. I cannot think
of a single public health officer who is not guilty of that crime.
As I see it, its a crime. I feel it is criminal neglect when you know whats right but to keep your job and to not have a bunch of homosexuals picketing your office and to be politically correct, you are staying silent. And that is a tragedy.
And itsalmost uniform. There hasnt yet been a public health official to stand up and say, Wait a minute folks,what we are doing is wrong. And if there is, the media wont let him speak anyway. So, hes isolated and they cut him off. And thats it. Thats what happens to people who even try. So, nobody tries. And our
society is on the verge of disaster.
J.R.: A sneeze. A human being sneezes and projects up to 50,000 microdroplets 6-10 feet from the body
at speeds of up to 100 miles an hour. Pretty amazing.
W.O.: Whats amazing is the proof. Numerous events have occurred where an HIV/TB infected individual
has gone into a clinic and infected everyone in the clinic. That happens so often that they have
stopped writing about it!
J.R.: Can the AIDS virus, HIV, inhabit a tuberculosis organism?
W.O.: The AIDS virus is about the size of a burr on a dog. If the dog is the size of a TB bacillus, the AIDS
virus is about the size of a burr. And theres no reason to believe that those (HIV) organisms cant attach
to the coat of the larger organism and then travel with the other organism piggy-back style. And thats
been seen in trichomonas which is a protozoan infection largely causing vaginitis in women. They have
found that HIV particles stick to the outside of the trichomonas organism and as it swims through the
secretions, it carries with it HIV.
J.R.: Now, I hadnt heard that. Thats very alarming. Dr. Robert Strecker made that proposal, that HIV
can inhabit the tuberculosis organism and will, in fact, at one point in the future be proven to do just that.
The (AIDS) laws on the books almost defy description, the illogical nature of them, the irrational approach
to this disease which, again, is being treated like its a social problem.
W.O.: The consequence of that is going to be so devastating. About 50 years from now, theres going to
be a lot less black people around, I can tell you that right now. And maybe thats why, I dont know. I
suspect that there are some bigshots up there that are just looking back and saying, Lets just see whos
getting it. Well, who is it? Oh, the inner city ignorant blacks and the welfare people. In 20 years, theyll
be gone. Whats wrong with that?
J.R.: The other side of the issue is that a lot of pharmaceuticals and medical care providers are making a
lot of money during this epidemic.
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W.O.: Let me tell you! The amount of fortunes that have been made on HIV is incredible and unspeakable.
In fact, there was this guy from Merck who got up at a doctors convention I was attending and he
was telling us about all the possibilities of where we could attack the virus and how the vaccines would
do this, and how they are working on this vaccine and that vaccine. I went up to him and I said, Yes, but
you know that those wont work. You know that the virus will mutate right around vaccines. He said,
Yeah, I know that. I said, Well, why didnt you tell this group of doctors here? He looked at me very
plainly and said, Because I have payments on my house to make. If I were to say that, Merck would fire
me. Im not here to tell the truth. I am here to tell what Merck wants me to tell these doctors and thats
what I am employed to do.
A person without insurance, or even with insurance, but lets say without insurance, who has to go into the
hospital system is paying for the unpaid care of other people who couldnt pay for their care. Well, the
average cost of an AIDS patient, diagnosis to death, is $109,000. Do you know anyone who has $109,000
in assets? No. Where does that come from? It comes from YOU and me. We are paying through the
nose for this disease and for the stupidity in which it is being managed. And there is a good probability that
we will run out of money because there is no benefit to be gained in that $109,000 because at the end of
it, you bury the product. You dont get spin-off technologies or any real beneficial things. Nothing
comes of that. You might as we just dig a hole in the ground and throw the money in the ground. I call it
the AIDS hole. They are just throwing money down the AIDS hole.
J.R.: $109,000 per AIDS patientlets multiply that by 5 or 10 million cases.
W.O.: Forget it! Just multiply it by the 400,000 AIDS cases there are now. Multiply 400,000 times
100,000 and thats the health care bill for one single disease that gets everything. There are little brochures
that are sent to me quite frequently about the programs where, If you have a person who is HIV
positive, just call this 1-800 number and hell get all his medicines for free. Thats just great. I dont get
my medicines for free. The people who I see in my clinic dont get their medicines for free. But an HIV
person? Oh, theyre special! They get everything! And thats wrong.
J.R.: As a doctor, that obviously bothers you a great deal.
W.O.: Yes, you know why? Because people come up to me and say, Dr. OConnor, I dont have money
for that drug. And I dont know what to tell them. I dont tell them, Look, go out and get HIV and then
theyll pay for it. A day doesnt go by where a patientI work in a poverty clinican indigent clinic
where a lot of people are just barely able to pay their $25even if they dont, they are still seen anyway
and those people look at me in all sincerity and say, I cant pay for that drug, Doctor. And here its an
antibiotic for their bronchitis to keep it from turning into pneumonia. I just dont know what to do. And
then I look around and say, Well, this one AIDS patient, hes taking $109,000. Well, three AIDS
patients and I could run a clinic! I could put a doctor in every town in the country that has three AIDS
patients and take care of the entire community on $200,000 to run the building and $100,000 for the
doctor. Are we doing that? No, we are just shoveling money down the AIDS hole. And thats sick. Im
sorry and thats why Im a persona non grata in the AIDS community.
J.R.: Going hand-in-hand with the lack of AIDS coverage in the media in the last 6 months to a year, I
think we have to consider the small but rather loud group of people that adhere to the theories and tenets
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of Dr. Peter Duesberg, the retrovirologist from Berkeley, and Brian Ellison, the researcher. Together they
have put out a book called Why We Will Never Win the War On AIDS. In that book, among other things,
they say that the evidence is that AIDS [should read HIV?] virus is actually harmless; it is not a factor
in developing AIDS.
W.O.: I dont understand how a supposedly intelligent and credentialed man can be so stupid. His
(Duesbergs) major point is that Kochs Postulates have not been satisfied. And that means that you have
to take a clean, pure sample of HIV and a healthy human host and inject (that person) and wait and see if
they get AIDS. Well, we did that. We did that with blood users in this country!
J.R.: Over and over again.
W.O.: 25,000 of them! Good, clean Americans (hemophiliacs) who trusted our blood supplywho
trusted the Red CrossCCBC and the AABBthe blood organizations who are there to protect the
blood recipients in this country. Well, you know what they did? They killed about 50,000 people! Because
they wouldnt believe AIDS was real either. Because it would have cost them money to believe that.
They would have had to change their policy and start kicking out homosexuals and testing for other bloodborn
viruses.
J.R.: Of which there are many.
W.O.: Of which there are many! There are a lot of people who want to believe them (Duesberg and
Ellison). Say, there is a person who is HIV-infected and youve got ten people on one side of the room
saying (to him), Youve got a lethal virus and you cant have sex anymore, and you can give it to other
people by passing blood and body fluids. And then you have another person saying, Thats all not true!
Who do you think that HIV positive person is going to believe!? Hes going to go out and buy the book
and then hes going to go downtown and have sex because now he knows that hes not going to kill the
other person hes going to have sex with. Duesberg and those people are feeding denial. And they are
making a good profit at it; they are making money selling those books. You dont think they do that out of
the goodness of their hearts. No, they are making a lot of money and getting speaking engagements all
over.
As far as I am concerned, they ought to let him infect himself. They ought to go on Nightline or Good
Morning America and have the CDC hand him a pure quantity of HIV and say, O.K., Dr. Duesberg, put
your money where your mouth is. Inject this into yourself. And see what he does. See if he has the guts.
He wouldnt. He wouldnt do that!
J.R.: We dont even have to go that far. Couldnt we simply rig up a test with mosquitoes which have been
allowed to feed on AIDS-contaminated blood and put them in a big beaker and say, Alright, stick your
hand in there, if AIDS is not transmissible by insectswhich continues to be the party linethat insects
do not transmit this virus.
All the insects in Africa that have been known to bite people have been found by the Pasteur Institute of
France to have at least the DNA of HIV in their bodies, if not the active virus itself. Over here, mosquitoes
can feed on AIDS-infected blood by biting someone who is infected and retain up to 5-8 white blood cells
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in their stomach for up to 8 days and regurgitate that into the next person they bite. They also have a flying
range of up to 40 miles, so the vector potential in spreading this virus is clear and obvious, not to mention
the fact that mosquitoes are already known to spread over 80 different viruses and bacteria, many of them
retroviruses.
W.O.: Jeff, if they knew that insects could spread HIV, they would certainly protect themselves, too,
wouldnt they? And they wouldnt hide that information, would they!? Well, heres the they: You
mentioned the Pasteur Institute, it wasnt so much the Pasteur Institute, it was Dr. Jean-Claude Chermann
who went to Africa and did the studies and found that HIV was in every insect that had contact with
human blood. The question is: can that (HIV) come out of their genome? Is it first spread through to the
male line and is it found in the nonbloodsucking mosquitoesthe male mosquitoes? Guess what? It was
in the male population of mosquitoes.
The big question is: can active, infective vital particles get out of that (male) mosquito? When Jean-Claude
Chermann was asked by me, in person, when I met him in Marseilles and toured his facility, he said he had
received death threats. And he elected to stop studying it .
The scientific question as to whether insects can carry HIV is (officially) unanswered. And it is unanswered
because the leading virologist in the world (on the subject) cared more about his family and
himself. I dont blame him! If somebody told me, You keep up that line of research and we will kill you.
Id stop, too.
J.R.: Dr. Chermann made the point with his published data, though. And, clearly, there are two means of
insect transmission: mechanical and biological. And you just dont have a mosquito that transmits the
malaria organism, which is gigantic by comparison, and then tell someone with a straight face that this
insect cannot transmit a retrovirus. Its absurd.
W.O.: Yes, its absurd. In Africa, in 1981, no one was infected, not even the prostitutes. Now, in Central
Africa, you can see up to 60% of given populations infected. Im saying that in a decade, you cant rely on
just sex (transmission) to do that. And it isnt hard to catch! That is what Surgeon General Koop told us,
Hard to catch! Hard to catch! You have to have sex with someones rectum to get it. Or, inject blood
or drink a quart of saliva in order to even get a probability of one viral paticle infecting you. Well, all of
that was lies! But yet, he was the Surgeon General and he gets $10,000 per speaking engagement. He
didnt do so badly, did he?
J.R.: The International Red Cross, by the way, receives more than $4 billion in revenues each year from
around the world.
W.O.: And you know what? No one knows where the money goes! I was involved in a case against the
Red Cross as an expert witness and you know what happened? When they tried to find out where the
money goes and how much money the Red Cross makes off its (blood) concessions in this country, which
is about 50% of all the blood marketed in this country, they (the Red Cross) got an injunction keep from
having to tell where the money goes. There is an incredible amount of money going to the American Red
Cross and the International Red Cross.
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When the Red Cross comes to help you out in the flood, it isnt there just to help you, you sign a paper that
you are going to pay them back the money or whatever they give you. Its not free! My Dads great story
about that is that when he was going overseas in the Second World War, the Salvation Army was over
there handing out donuts and coffee and little sewing kits and stuff like that to every trooper mounting a
troop ship. And the Red Cross was there, too, selling donuts for a nickel! The servicemen thought that
was a little rude.
J.R.: I would say that the blood business may be the dirtiest of all when one figures that blood donations
are gathered in foreign countries, broken down into various products, and then shipped all around the
world and used in many different processes to make blood products for people.
W.O.: Oh, yes. The hemophiliacs in Great Britain all died because of the incompetence and the lies and
the subterfuge of the blood products industry in this country. Those people were just criminal. They had
a bunch of dried product that wasnt heat-treated but it was shelf; it had a shelf life of a couple years or
so. Suddenly, they were told about AIDS. If they had acted, they would have said, Sorry, we are going
to have a shortage of this product for a while. From now on, until we get clean product to give you, we
want you to use cryo-precipitate. Or just be real careful and dont fall down and dont bruise yourself so
that you bleed into your knee. Did they do that? No. They hid it (the AIDS risk) from the public and
used up their inventory of infected product. And they killed off their market! Can you believe that? They
killed off the very people they depended upon. Thats how stupid these people are.
J.R.: In elementary schools: a child in school now, in this state, has no legal right to know if the child next
to him or her is infected with HIV. If a school district allows children with AIDS or HIV-infected children
into the classroom, what can a parent do to protect his or her children?
W.O.: Nothing! Theres nothing you can do. Theyve rigged the game against you. Youll never find out,
for one. If you do find out and you act against it (the policy), everyone is going to hate you because you are
picking on some poor sick person who cant give you that disease! So, youll be soundly trounced. My
solution would be to take your kid out of the school. If hes sitting next to someone with HIV, the other
infections that kid carries are going to be transmitted to your child if he plays with him or comes into contact
with him. And that means every virus that comes around, whether its a common cold, pneumonia, or
measles, or you name it, they are a source for it.
They should not be in schools as far as Im concerned, especially at the teenage level for the obvious
reasons that teenagers have sex. And they wouldnt have sex with any given particular person if they
werent forced by law to be there and put in contact with that particular person. I think the state and the
schools have a duty to find who is infected among that population of sexually active teenagers and remove
them from the schools. But they are not going to do that.
I tried. About 1987, I had the Vacaville Community School System, the only school district in the state that
would not allow AIDS patients or AIDS infected people to be in the classroom. Well, political power and
intimidation won out and several years later, they reversed their policy so that all the schools in the state
were conforming. There are so many homosexuals in the state education office that it astounded me. It
was obvious to me that the school system was heavily influenced by that contingent of our society. And the
consequence is that you are not going to see any real exclusion happening in this state.
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J.R.: A couple of years ago, I went to an AIDS Information Workshop at a local elementary school
district and a PTA videotape was screened for those gathered there. That videotape showed a child in
elementary school coming home complaining to his mother that his friend in school had AIDS, and could he
get AIDS from his friend? The video tape then went to great lengths to explain how there was no possible
way that could happen. It even suggested that...
W.O.: It encouraged the kid to hug him!
J. R.: And, to share ice cream cones.
W.O.: They even go one step farther and say, How would you feel if you had AIDS, wouldnt you want
somebody to hug you!?
