Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

[DAR si LAMU]

Sir, Out of curiosity, could you please name 10 top universities which study AA as a philosophical feat?

...Is this a bluff being called?

 

[Eric Cartman]

...Kwa maana hiyo, kitu gani ambacho si pumba, katika vyote tulivyonavyo leo hii?

...Ujamaa na Kujitegemea ni sera nzuri kabisa ambayo ikifuatwa kwa kutumia akili na bila uvivu, italifikisha taifa hili mbele kabisa. Mifano hai iko mingi kwenye nchi za wenzetu, tena zenye mifumo wa kiuchumi wa kibepari.

Nitajie nchi moja duniani leo hii inayofuata pure ujamaa. Huko Venezuela 'Hugo Chavez' kajaribu, mara tu kakuta migorofa iliyokuwa inajengwa yote imebakia kama skeleteons na sasa wanaishi watu maskini bila ya umeme and in unsafe environment.

Si wote wanahitaji mafuta yake for cheap. yeye mwenyewe ingawa hataki western investors amekuwa champion wa south america market economy. You cant do these things on your own. You need external trades to take advantage of comparative advantages: and this is were the challenges lies in writing economical programmes (for most developing nations because copy and paste wont do it, as we differ in the levels of development) we need to be flexible depending on the level of your understanding.

Kwa maana hiyo ingawa mimi ni msahbiki wa capitalism, lakini si mshabiki wa Azimio la Zanzibar vile vile kwa sababu kuna haja ya government protection in many cases but they cant be on permanent basis. Another time another thread tutayajadili haya na huyo Kobello kama haja tokea juu ya post hii kesho.

 

[Zakumi]

...Kwa maana hiyo, kitu gani ambacho si pumba, katika vyote tulivyonavyo leo hii?

...Ujamaa na Kujitegemea ni sera nzuri kabisa ambayo ikifuatwa kwa kutumia akili na bila uvivu, italifikisha taifa hili mbele kabisa. Mifano hai iko mingi kwenye nchi za wenzetu, tena zenye mifumo wa kiuchumi wa kibepari.

Today you insult capitalists. Tomorrow you ask for their help to build what you call ujamaa na kujitegemea. What do you expect?

 

[William J. Malecela]

Wewe ulisema ifuatavyo...........


Mimi nikasema..........


Sasa wewe....."yule yule" unasema ifuatavyo



Well well well...........pamoja na kwamba unaji-contradict mwenyewe kama nilvyoonyesha hapo juu......I take your point though...........

Ndio maana Tanzania/ Taifa letu linaitwa "kichwa cha mwenda wazimu"..........tunajidharau wenyewe kuwa...kitu kilichokuwa generated na sisi (ofcourse by midifying other people ideas) hakifai......tunaanza kurukia rukia ideologies za watu bila hata kuzi-test kama zinafaa kwa jamii yetu.......Angalia rasilimali zetu zinavyokwapuliwa kila siku kwa sababu ya "Akili" nyingi za watu walioliua Azimio la Arusha..........

Lets say Walioliua Azimio...had brilliant ideas na kwamba wana akili sana.....kama unavyodai.......hivi sasa kama Taifa tunafaidika vipi na hizo ideas............zaidi ya kashfa zilizokithiri kila kukicha..........

Anayefikiri kuwa Azimio la Arusha was dead wrong.............ni muhimu akajijua kuwa he/she is DEAD WRONG in the first place...........

- Mkuu huu mjadala ni wa hoja sio wewe wala mimi, umeukuta upo kihoja naona unaanza kuuharibu personal hatuzihitaji hapa, hoja yangu ni kwamba Azimio was wrong na it is dead, ya wewe kufa hayanihusu tuongee Azimio kama unaamini lipo hai au linafaa weka hoja zako tu mambo ya binafsi hayapo hapa hii thread!

- Azimio lilikufa kwa sababu lilikuwa halitekelezeki, Ubepari tunaoufuata sasa unatekelezeka ndio maana kuna mabadiliko makubwa kwa wananchi na hasa uhuru wa kusema maoni yao na kusikilizwa pia, mengine tunaenda pole pole lakini angalau kuna mwanga mbele!

William.

 

[DAR si LAMU]

Nitajie nchi moja duniani leo hii inayofuata pure ujamaa. Huko Venezuela 'Hugo Chavez' kajaribu, mara tu kakuta migorofa iliyokuwa inajengwa yote imebakia kama skeleteons na sasa wanaishi watu maskini, si wote wanahitaji mafuta yake for cheap. yeye mwenyewe ingawa hataki western investors amekuwa champion wa south america market economy. You cant do these things on your own. You need external trades: this is where the challenges lies in writing economical programmes and they need to be flexible depending on the level of your understanding. Kwa maana hiyo ingawa mimi ni msahbiki wa capitalism bali si mshabiki wa Azimio la Zanzibar vile vile. Another time another thread.

...Nilitegemea hii. Ujamaa na Kujitegemea haikumaanisha Socialism. Ninavyoelewa mimi.

...Mjomba Chavez amepotea vibaya sana. Kuna mambo kadhaa serikali haiwezi kuyafanya kwa ufanisi.

 

[Eric Cartman]

...Nilitegemea hii. Ujamaa na Kujitegemea haikumaanisha Socialism. Ninavyoelewa mimi.

...Mjomba Chavez amepotea vibaya sana. Kuna mambo kadhaa serikali haiwezi kuyafanya kwa ufanisi.

Ujamaa na kujitegema aimaanishi socialism (unaweza kuandika kitu na kukipa jina lolote), lakini approaches za AA zipo left na kuna utata mkubwa kwenye suala hilo. Kesho tena kwa mimi asubuhi nina majukumu mengine..

By the way our closest two allies kwenye philosophy za ujamaa na kujitegema wameshabadilika wengine wamebakia na jina tu kutunza philosophy lakini their pretty much capitalist under one party (kwa maana hiyo wao wapo so concerned na elitism na ukandamizaji wa demokrasia). Na wengine wamekubali ni ma capitalist tu, hawana tofauti sana na wa mwanzo kwa sababu jamii yao hipo based on a caste system yale yale ukandamizaji wa demokrasia.

 

[DAR si LAMU]

Today you insult capitalists. Tomorrow you ask for their help to build what you call ujamaa na kujitegemea. What do you expect?

...Uko sahihi kwenye hii observation. Ujamaa wa mwalimu ulikuwa na maana ya kuunganisha nguvu au kushirikiana kulijenga taifa -hii inafanyika hasa kwenye kilimo na hata viwanda huko ulaya. watu wanakuwa na umoja wa kuhifadhi na kuzalisha vyakula, na mazao ya mifugo.- au na jamii inayozunguka eneo husika, hasa kwenye miradi ya maendeleo. Kujitegemea kulikuwa na maana ya kujitolesheleza kwa mahitaji yetu ya muhimu kadri iwezekanavyo. Kama una nafasi ya kukusanya kodi halafu ukawa na nidhamu ya matumizi, hutopitapita kutembeza bakuli.

...Hao wanaowatukana mabepari hawajui wanachokifanya au wanazuga tu.

 

[Zakumi]

...Huwa najiuliza, je, Nyerere alifika mahala akaacha kusimamia A la A au ilikuwaje. Maana, hata kutohamia MM-D chanzo twaweza sema ni Nyerere, kwani yeye ndiye angeanza kuhamia huko. Au?

Labda kujenga ujamaa kwa kutumia bureaucracy aliyoacha mwingereza ilikuwa ni kitu kigumu? Alitakiwa aje na bureaucracy yake.

 

[DAR si LAMU]

Ujamaa na kujitegema aimaanishi socialism (unaweza kuandika kitu na kukipa jina lolote), lakini approaches za AA zipo left na kuna utata mkubwa kwenye suala hilo. Kesho tena kwa mimi asubuhi nina majukumu mengine..

...Huo utata uongezee na mwelekeo au fikra za wananchi wa kawaida, ndio balaa tupu. Watanzania wengi wa kawaida -na ambao ndio wapiga kura wengi- ni leftists. Sasa, kama changamoto, lazima tujiulize wanatimiziwa vipi matakwa yao -japo najua hamna anayejali, kiuhalisia- ambayo mengi ni very basic.

By the way our closest two allies kwenye philosophy za ujamaa na kujitegema wameshabadilika wengine wamebakia na jina tu kutunza philosophy lakini their pretty much capitalist under one party (kwa maana hiyo wao wapo so concerned na elitism na ukandamizaji wa demokrasia). Na wengine wamekubali ni ma capitalist tu, hawana tofauti sana na wa mwanzo kwa sababu jamii yao hipo based on a caste system yale yale ukandamizaji wa demokrasia.

...Katika kukuza uchumi, baadhi yao hasa China nitawafanya kama mfano wa kuigwa. Ila, natambua kuwa Ulaya karibu yote, mara nyingi hutawaliwa na siasa za ki leftists. Ni hivi majuzi wamebadilika kidogo kutokana na wimbi la wahamiaji, ingawa wengi wao -France ikiwa mfano mzuri- ni leftists.

 

[DAR si LAMU]

Labda kujenga ujamaa kwa kutumia bureaucracy aliyoacha mwingereza ilikuwa ni kitu kigumu? Alitakiwa aje na bureaucracy yake.

...Umenifunua mawazo zaidi. Nafikiria, model nzuri -pamoja na kwamba africanization ndio ilikuwa chachu kuu- ingekuwa ya ujamaa wa kifaransa.

 

[Eric Cartman]

..Ila, natambua kuwa Ulaya karibu yote, mara nyingi hutawaliwa na siasa za ki leftists. Ni hivi majuzi wamebadilika kidogo kutokana na wimbi la wahamiaji, ingawa wengi wao -France ikiwa mfano mzuri- ni leftists.

Not entirely left but the policies are based on central left (because of Tony Blair and the Germany approach), central ( the core of capitalism) and central right (because of Margret Thatcher), haya yote yametokana na balancing na ufahamu wa jamii zao hili ziendelee. Kuna challenges nyingi sisi hatujafikia central of the spectrum yet (May be left central of the spectrum) lakini si kwa ideologies kama za A.A. Mimi tena kesho.

 

[Kobello]

Sir Kobello,

Let me agree with you that a declaration is a statement of intent. My question now is who's responsible for making that statement? A leader at the mountain top? The people through a democratic process?

The people.... since you are too predictable (not a good quality for debate) let me go further and let you know that AD was a statement from TANU's general Assembly which was democratically elected and was a representative of "Tanzanians" at that time.

 

[Kobello]

You have been posing questions all the time, allow me to reciprocate the compliments for a change.

The underlying philosophy of Arusha Declaration was to attain a self sufficient society, what were it's challenges. Ni jibu na mimi ntakujibu.

The biggest of all (there are many) was "political", by leaning left, we were isolated by the international community in things like trade, international financing eg. IMF,WB etc.
We were also too pan Africanist (at least labeled as), fighting for our brothers down south, supporting polisario, not recognizing Taiwan, South Korea and Israel. It was of course an uphill battle compared to puppet nations like Kenya.

 

[Kobello]

Sir,

Out of curiosity, could you please name 10 top universities which study AA as a philosophical feat?

I did it myself in undergrad, here in US (nice try but I won't disclose my true ID).
Ngoja nishushe data:
1. HISTORY 413 (University of Lorin).."African Political thought" Topic: Neo-colonialism, THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF jkn.
2.University of Idaho, College of Arts and Social Studies.
3. PSCI 4809 (Carleton University); The rise and demise of Populism (African Socialism), in Tanzania.
4.POL 301Y University of Toronto.
5.University of Dar es salaam (kawaulize mwenyewe jina la course).
6.Western oregon University
7.POLS 221 :Baldwin (Mary) College, Staunton VA.
8.LutherCollege, Decorah, Iowa.
9.POL 224, Oberlin College.
10.THE FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY: College of Education.

 

[Zakumi]

...Huo utata uongezee na mwelekeo au fikra za wananchi wa kawaida, ndio balaa tupu. Watanzania wengi wa kawaida -na ambao ndio wapiga kura wengi- ni leftists. Sasa, kama changamoto, lazima tujiulize wanatimiziwa vipi matakwa yao -japo najua hamna anayejali, kiuhalisia- ambayo mengi ni very basic. ...Katika kukuza uchumi, baadhi yao hasa China nitawafanya kama mfano wa kuigwa. Ila, natambua kuwa Ulaya karibu yote, mara nyingi hutawaliwa na siasa za ki leftists. Ni hivi majuzi wamebadilika kidogo kutokana na wimbi la wahamiaji, ingawa wengi wao -France ikiwa mfano mzuri- ni leftists.

Kuhusiana na China, kuna wasomi wanaosema kuwa Chairman Mao hakuwa mjamaa. Kutokanana Geo-political ya China, alitumia ujamaa kama device ya ku-extract maximum technical and military aid from Russia. Na alichohakikisha ni kuwa anapata blue prints za technologies zote muhimu. Na baadaye alihamua ku-normalize uhusiano na nchi za magharibi kama Marekani. Nia yake kubwa ilikuwa world domination.

Vilevile ushirikiano wa China na Tanzania ilikuwa ni strategy ya wachina katika siasa zao nje. Vyama vyote vya kijamaa duniani vilikuwa kwenye umoja Com-Intern.

Lakini kulikuwa na mvutano katika wakomunisti wa China na wale wa Urusi, na wakakubaliana kuwa waRusi waongeze nchi za Ulaya. Na China iongoze nchi za dunia ya za dunia ya tatu au nchi zinazotokana kwenye ukoloni. Hivyo wachina wakai-target Tanzania hili kupanua mtandao wake barani Afrika. Zipo kumbukumbu zinazoonyesha hivyo.

TANU kilikuwa chama chenye siasa za moderate. Lakini baada ya kuanza kukutana na wachina, mwelekeo ukaanza kubadilika. Kufikia 1967, kikawa tayari chama cha radicals. U-radical huu ulikuwa through conversation. Sera za vijiji vya ujamaa ni ya wachina ambao nayo ilitoka Urusi. Hivyo mtu akisema democracy ni copy and paste inatakiwa ajue kuwa sera ya vijiji ni copy and paste pia.

Vilevile Taiwan ndio iliyokuwa inawakilisha China kwenye umoja wa mataifa. China ikatumia nchi za dunia ya Tatu kama Tanzania kupata support ya kupewa kiti cha kuwakilisha China na vilevile kupewa kura ya veto.

Hivyo mawazo ya mChina yalikuwa sio kujenga reli ya uhuru. Alikuwa na maslahi yake binafsi.

 

[Ogah]

Mkuu
Acha kupotosha umma kuhusu dhana ya demokrasia, hii aihusuiani chochote na tamaduni wala ways of doing things kwenye jamii, kwa maana hiyo aingiliani na mwenendo wa maisha ya watu in general (depending on the understanding of the era) hila they can be challenged through evolved moral values and understanding of that particular society at the time.

Demokrasia imejikita katika uhusiano wa involment ya wengi kwenye siasa na maamuzi ya kisiasa kwa upande mkubwa. Kwanza neno lenyewe limeanzaia kwenye siasa za ancient Greek between (461bc and 322bc), during that time hata huyo mzungo alikuwa ajaanza slave trade or anything to impact the world affairs.

Demokrasia limetokana na maneno mawili ya Kigiriki ya wakati huo 'Demos' likimaanisha watu na 'Kratia' likimaanisha muongozo wa sheria. Kumbuka wakati huo tamaduni zao zilikuwa zinatawalia na fikra nyingi ambazo zilijaa ukiritimba, ubaguzi na dhana nyingi leo ambazo azitambuliki wala azikubaliki. Hila kwa kuwa tamaduni zinabadilika na mambo mengi yaliyokuwa hayapo kwenye demokrasia ya mgiriki yamebadilika. Again through evolved understandings, the meaning of the word widens.

Hila mzungu awezi kuja kwako kukwambia usioe wake watatu kama tamaduni inakuruhusu hivyo au kwenda kutambika kwenu eti kisa unachukua demokrasia yake. Demokrasia imejikita zaidi katika political involvement za wengi kwenye kuchagua maamuzi ya jamii that is to say huwezi peleka watu maporini waka-risk maisha yao na akina simba kama hawataki kwa phisophy zako bila ya maamuzi yao:hiyo ndio maana ya democracy citizens having choices.

Kuhusu quote yako majibu kesho inataka maelezo, na kukuelezea kwanini AA halifai kabisa si tu kidemokrasia bali hata kialisia.

Unajua ukiingia kichwa kichwa kwenye mjadala kuhusu Azimio la Arusha matokeo yake ndio hayo hapo juu.......ni jazba na chuki binafsi as if hivi sasa tuna perfect system au miongozo tunayoifuata......it is as if you are living in a different world.........hakuna mahala nimesema Azimio la Arusha ni lilikuwa Muarubaini wa matatizo yetu........isipokuwa naendelea kusisitiza.......walau kulikuwa na values ambazo kwazo demokrasia mnayoihubiri ingeangukia ikiwa pamoja na misingi hiyo...........sio kila kitu ndani ya Azimio kilikuwa perfect........isipokuwa angalau tulikuw ana kitu ambacho tulitakiw akurekebisha.........

achilia mbali hiyo yako ya ugiriki..........You can go back to 10,000 years ku-define aina yeyote ya demokrasia iliyokuwepo kulingana na wakati huo...achilia mbali hiy unayozungumzia.........kwetu sisi mfumo wa utawala waweza kuwa na similarities na kabila lingine ambalo ni wala ndizi....na tafsiri ya kupata uongozi wetu inaweza kuw ana jina jingine tofauti na hicho kigiriki.......but the end product ni kwa jamii inakubali utawala wa aina husika.....PERIOD........demokrasia unaweza kuiremba kwa kihaya/kichaga/kisukuma/kihehe......hawa watu wana namna zao ya jinsi kupata viongozi wao amabzo zinakubalika kwao...........kule kwetu uchagani tuliona kuwa tunaweza kuwa nchi kamili kwa kufuata mifumo ya uongozi ya sehemu mbali za uchagani...........sasa usilete uduwanzi wa ku-copy na ku-paste vitu ambavyo mchaga/mhaya/mhehe anaona nyota tu......mwisho wa siku mna-take advantage ya ujinga wao.............

BTW...mada hapa si somo la demokrasia......mada hapa ni Azimio la Arusha.......ambalo MIJIBWA na MILAFI ililiua.......halafu wengine wanasema "we were dead wrong"...........I think itakuwa sawa kabisa ku-consolidate that statement by saying.......YES WE ARE NOW RIGHT BY GIVING OUR WEALTH TO THE FEW..........

 

[Ogah]

- Mkuu huu mjadala ni wa hoja sio wewe wala mimi, umeukuta upo kihoja naona unaanza kuuharibu personal hatuzihitaji hapa, hoja yangu ni kwamba Azimio was wrong na it is dead, ya wewe kufa hayanihusu tuongee Azimio kama unaamini lipo hai au linafaa weka hoja zako tu mambo ya binafsi hayapo hapa hii thread!

- Azimio lilikufa kwa sababu lilikuwa halitekelezeki, Ubepari tunaoufuata sasa unatekelezeka ndio maana kuna mabadiliko makubwa kwa wananchi na hasa uhuru wa kusema maoni yao na kusikilizwa pia, mengine tunaenda pole pole lakini angalau kuna mwanga mbele!

William.

Hakuna personals hapa.....nimejaribu kuonyesha ni jinsi gani unavyoji-contradict kwenye hoja zako.......kiasi kwamba inatia shaka hata hoja ulioileta kama unaielewa........endapo kitu simple sana unaki-contradict.............sorry! we will always try to put record straight.........

 

[Zakumi]

The people.... since you are too predictable (not a good quality for debate) let me go further and let you know that AD was a statement from TANU's general Assembly which was democratically elected and was a representative of "Tanzanians" at that time.

Correct me if I am wrong. It wasn't TANU's general Assembly. It was its national executive committee, the party leading clique. In addition, TANU's general assembly didn't represent the whole country because Tanzania is a union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar, and TANU decisions didn't cross the Indian Ocean to Zanzibar.

 

[Zakumi]

I did it myself in undergrad, here in US (nice try but I won't disclose my true ID).
Ngoja nishushe data:
1. HISTORY 413 (University of Lorin).."African Political thought" Topic: Neo-colonialism, THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF jkn.
2.University of Idaho, College of Arts and Social Studies.
3. PSCI 4809 (Carleton University); The rise and demise of Populism (African Socialism), in Tanzania.
4.POL 301Y University of Toronto.
5.University of Dar es salaam (kawaulize mwenyewe jina la course).
6.Western oregon University
7.POLS 221 :Baldwin (Mary) College, Staunton VA.
8.LutherCollege, Decorah, Iowa.
9.POL 224, Oberlin College.
10.THE FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY: College of Education.

Sir,

I didn't ask any university. I have asked top 10. Anyway number 3 tells the story why people have to learn AA.

 

[Bongolander]

Asante sana Mkuu........ hivi jamani ni nchi gani iliyoendelea duniani isiyo na miiko/maadili kwa viongozi wake.........

Mkuu unajua naona kuna kitu cha ajabu sana kinaendelea. Ni kama kuna deliberate efforts za kumdiscredit Nyerere. Kila mtu anafahamu kuwa Nyerere was no saint, alikuwa na weaknesses nyingi tu kama binadamu. Hata elimu yake yenyewe ilikuwa ya kiushikaji, hata base aliyokuwa nayo ya kuchagua watu wa kumsaidia kazi ilikuwa imechoka, hakukuwa na watu wenye elimu ya maana zaidi ya ile ya kufuta ujinga.

Lakini aliona kuwa kuwa kiongozi ni lazima uwe na maadili na ni lazima ujue miiko ya uongozi. Ukiangalia sasa CCM haina miiko, na viongozi ndio kabisa hawana miiko. Hata kama ipo kama wanavyodai, ipo kwenye makaratasi tu, kivitendo ni kama uwanja wa fisi. Angalia nchi ya Kikomunisti Koreka kaskazini jinsi inavyofuata miiko ya uongozi, angalaia Marekani nchi ya kibepari inavyofuata miiko ya uongozi, so miiko iko kila upande, why not here in Tanzania?

Sio siri kuwa azimio lilikuwa na upungufu wake, la kufanya ilitakiwa tuondoe mabaya tuimarishe mazuri. Sio kama tunachofanya sasa na Azimio la Zanzibar, sasa kila kitu ovyo. Idara na taasisi zote za nchi hazifanyi kazi kutokana na kuwa hazifuati miiko na wanaoziongoza na wafanyakazi wake pia hawafuati miiko. We do not change this, we will keep on being fcuked.