Benazir Bhutto Assassinated!!

[Mtanganyika]

Mungu amuweke mahali pema peponi, Kind of Mwana mapinduzi maana alipewa nafasi mara mbili za kuongoza akashindwa tena vibaya sana, yeye na mumewe waliwaibia wananchi wa Pakistani jumla ya dola $ 1.2 Billion, a product of Oxford/Havard, alitawala kwa mabavu huku akidai in the public kuwa anakumbatia demokrasia, akawa kipenzi cha West, huku akijijengea maadui kila kona ya Pakistani,

In the end amefariki akijaribu kugombea alichoshindwa kukifanya in the past, baada ya kuwa Waziri Mkuu twice, tunampa heshima kwa sababu tu at least alikuwa akimkosesha usingizi dikteta Mushaaraaaf,

Otherwise, Mungu amlaze mahali pema peponi, Marehemu Bi Bhutto.

FM
Heshima juu mzee, nakubaliana na wewe kwa some point. Japokuwa inasemekana aliyekuwa corrupted sana ni mumewe, they use to call him "Ten Percent", means kila government deal yeye alitaka kula asilimia kumi.

Huyu mama mwanzo alikuwa against western, kama unakumbuka baba yake ndio alileta Nukes ndani ya ile nchi. Hii kitu ni very controvesial issue, with many speculations. Serikali ya Musharaf inaamua nani impe security na nani imnyime.

Hii case ni nzito sana, kuna consiperancy nyingi sana... Includes right wingers Muslim facist, Musharaf and his western allies or Al-qaida.

I can't see democrasia coming soon on that land, i think they diserv marshal law for a while. Nchi za Asia zina matatizo sana when it comes to interest groups with in the countries.

Mwenyezi mungu (S.W) amnusuru.

 

[Mtanganyika]

Guyz nadhani tusirukie tuu kwamba hii kitu inawausu extrimist, hii case ni very controversial. Kama umesoma email ya huyu mama aliyo mtumia rafiki yake akisema iwekwe public if and only if akifa, then utaamini kwamba there is alot behind this.

Kama unafuatilia politics in a global manner, utaona kwamba huyu mama alikuwa hapatani na Musharraf na most of top leaders in the army. Sasa kusema kwamba extrimist ndio wamehusika ni kupoison evidence out there.

Ndio maana utaona kwamba democratic GOP John Edward analazimisha international investigator unit kuwa part of investigations, lakini what happened ni Musharraf amegoma to this point kuensemble any forces outside Pakistan.

So, jamani wacheni hizi politics zenu za he said, she said. Musharraf received a lot of money from USA, however he is doing nothing. We will see how Musharraf won't take this as excuse to push elective to unknown date.
I think at this time we dont need to speculate things, if you know Pakistanian history and politics perceptions then you will understand where is Pakistan coming from.

So, let not mix stories or becoming private investigators.

 

[Mtu]

Alieua kwa upanga atakufa kwa Upanga......I hate Politics

 

[William J. Malecela]

Mtanganyika,

Heshima mbele mkuu, jana kwenye Radio MPR, walikuwa wakiwahoji watu wengi walioenda naye shule kule Havard, almost wote walikuwa very dis-appointed na record yake huyu mama as a leader kwa kushindwa ku-deliver, inaonekana aliingia uongozi kwa sababu tu baba yake alipinduliwa na kuuliwa kinyama, isipokuwa tu I like the part ya Kissinger kumwambia baba yake alipokuwa only 20 years old kuwa huyu mama alikuwa more intimidating kuliko baba yake aliyekuwa rais wa Pakistan then,

Na pia baada ya kusoma vitabu vingi vinavyomhusu huyu mama, ni kweli kabisa anayeua wenziwe kwa upanga atauwawa kwa upanga, lakini Mungu amuweke mahali pema mwanamapinduzi!

 

[Richard]

depends with what you mean by democracy in the first place. Lakini kama tutaondokana na semantics na ulimaanisha wester/liberal democracy yes unaweza uka import lakini not everywhere. Mfano mdogo USA iliamua kuivamia AFGHANISTAN under the pretext of installing deocracy and lierating Muslim women in KUNDIZ, MAZARI SHARRIFF, TORA BORA AND MUSA KALA white at the same time in the land of the free & home of the brave muslim men were being detained without trial in MICHIGAN, L.A, FLORIDA, NEWYORK, NJ and DC

Na kama kama hivyo haitoshi jaribu kuwaambia ARAB STREET about human rights and justice as a pillar of democracy..the obvious question waarabu watauliza what about GUANTANAMO BAY?

Nimeuliza swali hilo kwa sababu nchi za Magharibi na Marekani zimeweza kuingiza kinachoitwa demokrasia kwa nchi kama Iraq, na Afghanistan ambako wamepiga kura kwa kuelekezwa na kusimamiwa na wawakilishi (wanajeshi) na wakachaguliwa watu ambao tayari walikwishapitishwa.

Lakini mahali pengine penye demokrasia yake kama Iran au Syria na nchi kama Zimbabwe, Kenya na Tanzania zikifanza uchaguzi, basi wawakilishi (observers wa nchi za Magharibi) wanakuwa na kauli za kwamba uchaguzi haukuwa huru na wa haki.

Mimi nafikiri demokrasia imeonekana tu juzijuzi pale South Afrika.

Nchi za magharibi zina kauli ya demokrasia, uhuru na kulinda tamaduni na destuli lakini vitu hivi viwili ndivo vinavoleta mzozo usiokwisha kwani haviwezi kuhamishiwa kwa nchi ingine ambapo kwa sasa Iraq na kwingine mambo sio mazuri.

 

[Richard]

Kila kitu kinaweza kuwa imported.

Naomba unifafanulie kwani sijakuelewa.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Nyani, hoja (argument) lengo lake ni kushawishi akili na siyo hisia. Nguvu ya hoja inatokana na mambo makubwa mawili nayo ni ukweli (truth) na mantiki (logic). Hoja yenye nguvu ni ile ambayo ndani yake ina ukweli na pia inakubaliana na mantiki. Hoja ya namna hiyo inapotolewa basi mtu anayeiangalia au kuisikia analazimika kuamua kuiamini au kuikataa.

Yule anayekubali anakubali si kwa sababu nani ametoa hoja hiyo bali anagundua kuwa dhamira yake (conscience) haimruhusu kuukana ukweli na kupinga mantiki. Mtu anaweza kukataa hoja yenye nguvu kwa vile haipendi si kwa vile ni ya uongo au haina mantiki.

Hapo nyuma Game ametoa mfano wa Uzalendo wa Nyerere kuwa Mwalimu alikosa uzalendo kwa vile alipougua alienda na kufia uingereza badala ya hospitali ya Muhimbili (au hospitali yoyote ya nyumbani).

Sasa hiyo ni hoja ambayo mtu mwenye akili anaweza kuikubali au kuikataa. Ndani yake hoja hiyo ina ukweli kuwa Mwalimu alifia Uingereza na siyo Muhimbili. Hata hivyo inapingana na mantiki hasa kujaribu kuonesha kuwa mtu mgonjwa hawezi kuwa mzalendo wa kweli kwa vile amefia mbali na nyumbani kwake! Ndio maana nilisema mfano huo ni miongoni mwa mifano mibovu kabisa iliyowahi kutolewa duniani. Nadhani kiakili unazidi hata mfano wa "kupaa kwa ndege ya Lowassa"!

Nimesema hayo kuonesha kuwa matumizi ya nguvu hayawezi kuwa "hoja" hata kwa maana ya mbali. Ila hoja inaweza kulazimishwa kwa matumizi ya nguvu hasa hoja dhaifu. Kwa sababu hoja dhaifu haina ukweli na haikubaliani na mantiki.

YNIM, tatizo la kuwakubalia watu wanaotumia nguvu kutengeneza hoja zao ni kuwa hawawezi kuzilinda kwa kutumia akili bali kwa matumizi ya nguvu tu. Al Qaida wakipewa nchi waongoze ili waweze kuwashawishi watu juu ya "uzuri" wa hoja zao ni lazima watumie nguvu kwa sababu kuna watu wanaweza kuthubutu kuwaonesha kwanini hoja zao ni mbovu. Wale Taleban kule Afghanistan walifanya hivyo walipokuwa wanatawala ile nchi bila vitisho na matumizi ya nguvu hawawezi kutawala!

Sasa, matumizi ya nguvu yanashawishi hisia zaidi kuliko akili na ndicho hicho hawa extremists wanajaribu na ndicho kilichotokea Gaza!

Maelezo yako nayakubali. Lakini pia ukumbuke kwamba hata nchi za Magharibi wakati mwingine hutumia nguvu kusaidia hoja zao. Mfano wa haraka haraka ni ule wa Marekani kwenda kuanzisha vita ya kumwondoa Saddam wakati aliyewapiga ni Al-Qaeda! Kama ulifuatilia kwa ukaribu events preceding the invasion utaona kuwa Wamarekani hawakuwa na hoja yoyote kuhalalisha uvamizi wa Iraq. Nakumbuka kumwangalia Collin Powell pale UN akitetea sababu za haja ya kuivamia Iraq nikaishia kutikisa kichwa tu na kusema "he can do better than that"...

Naomba nisieleweke vibaya hapa: simtetei Saddam bali najaribu kuangalia hoja zilizotolewa kuhalalisha uvamizi wa nchi yake.

 

[Yona F. Maro]

Ahsante Musharaf na wananchi wa pakistan wanaotaka mapinduzi ya kweli katika nchi yao

Enzi za Bhuto zilishapita na wakati wake ali enjoy yeye hakuwa na sababu yoyote ya kuanzisha mapinduzi mapya kwa ajili ya pakistan na watu wake

Kilichomkuta Bhuto ni fundisho kwa wengine wote wasiotaka kuachiangazi kuwapisha wengine kuendeleza kile kilichopo

 

[Icadon]

Benazir na wanae mwaka 1999 Uingereza.

Benazir Bhutto akiondoka kwenye mkutano

Mumewe B.Bhutto.

 

[Choveki]

..... Swali ambalo ninajiuliza ni kuwa kama fundamentalists wana hoja na wanaamini hoja zao zina nguvu kwanini wanatumia nguvu kulazimisha hoja zao? Je, yawezekana kushinda kwa kutumia hoja. Hili lina implication kubwa sana katika mjadala wetu kuhusu Taifa letu.... "hoja hujibiwa kwa hoja" na ndani yake naona ya kuwa hoja yenye nguvu ikishinda na kushawishi akili za watu basi watu wataikumbatia. Kama Al Qaida wana hoja kwanini wasijenge hoja zao na wakawaacha watu waamue? ....?

Mwanakijiji,
Je unakumbuka enzi za ukombozi wa mwafrika kusini mwa afrika??- maneno yaliyokuwa yanatumika ni kuwa "....uhuru hauwezi kupatikana bali tu kwa mtutu wa bunduki..."

Pia hao fundamentalists na AQ ni kama misemo tu, sidhani kama wana nguvu kiasi hicho. wenye nguvu ni wananchi ambao hawakutaka kumwona mama bhutto akirudi nchini kwao. Siku hizi AQ ni kama fasheni, sehemu yeyote pakitokea kitu na pakawa na muislam basi link ya kwanza ni aq. Kama ushafuatilia yule mbrazil mkatoliki aliyeuwawa uingereza kwa makosa ingetokea bahati mbaya akawa ni mwarabu au muislamu link yake na aq ingepatikana tu.

Umeuliza kwanini AQ wasijibu au kupambana kwa hoja na majadiliano, je wewe ushawahi waona?? je wanaishi wapi?

Kitu kingine ni kuwa utumiaji nguvu haujaanzia pakistani au so called aq au fundamentalists, ndiyo binadamu tulivyo. Si unakumbuka marekani walivyomfata yule raisi muuza unga wa Panama kwa nguvu?. Je kwa nini hawakujadiliana Iraki na Sadamu, au kule Afghanistani na badala yake walitumia nguvu tu?

Urusi kule chechnya wala hawana hili au lile wao wanapiga tu. Ukienda Sudani kitu ni hicho hicho kule Darfur kinatembezwa kipigo tu. Ukienda Isaraeli na Palestine ni vivyo hivyo ubabe ubabe tu. Kwa bahati mbaya Palestine wale HAMAS waliposhinda nchi za west zikatumia nguvu kukataa matokeo kwanini wasijadili??

Ninachotaka kusema ni kuwa Utumiaji nguvu siyo hao AQ tu ni hulka za ki binadamu tu.

Ndiyo maana hata majumbani akina baba huwa wanatembeza kipigo kwa wake zao au watoto wao bila kutaka mjadala au hoja yeyote.

Tukirudi kwa mama Bhutto, ni kuwa hata kama kungekuwa hakuna AQ au waislamu huyu mama bado angeuwawa tu, kwani wanaomchukia walikuwa wengi sana pia, yaani wampendao walikuwa wengi sana na wamchukiao pia walikuwa wengi sasa na kumbuka pakistani ina zaidi ya watu milioni 160.

Samahani wanachama imebidi nitoke nje kidogo

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Vizuri sana Choveki. Kwani hata mimi mawazo yangu hayako mbali sana na ya kwako.

Halafu mmesikia maelezo ya waziri wa mambo ya ndani ya Pakistan kuhusu kilichomuua Bi. Bhutto? Kwangu mimi ina-sound kama bonge la cover up....They'll have a hard time convincing people...I can tell you that.

 

[Icadon]

Inavyoonekana katika makubaliano waliyofikia kati ya Musharaff na Bhutto mojawapo ilikuwa ni serikali kumpa ulinzi huyu mama ila Musharaff na serikali hawakutoa au kitu imetengenezwa na ISI. Inasemekana kuwa General Ahmad Mahmood ana ties na Al Qaeda na other Islamist Fundamentalist groups, so either way serikali ina mkono wake kwenye hili. more interesting huko Rawlpindi ndio makao makuu ya jeshi la Pakistan na ISI yaliko.

Alafu hawa Al Qaeda mie naona kama wanakuzwa kuliko walivyo maana ata lile bomu la mungiki nairobi walianza kuspeculate kuwa ni Al Qaeda.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Yeah...siku hizi kila kitu Al-Qaeda tu. Sasa sijui baba yake na Benazir na kaka yake na wenyewe waliuliwa na Al-Qaeda?

 

[Icadon]

Yeah...siku hizi kila kitu Al-Qaeda tu. Sasa sijui baba yake na Benazir na kaka yake na wenyewe waliuliwa na Al-Qaeda?

Umeona latest video iliyotelewa leo? Interior Minister wa Pak anasema kuwa Benazir alikufa kutokana na impact ya kugonga kichwa kwenye gari na sio gun shot(s), madokta nao wanasema hawakuona bullet holes kwenye mwili wake.

Video hiko hapa

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Umeona latest video iliyotelewa leo? Interior Minister wa Pak anasema kuwa Benazir alikufa kutokana na impact ya kugonga kichwa kwenye gari na sio gun shot(s), madokta nao wanasema hawakuona bullet holes kwenye mwili wake.

Video hiko hapa

Yeah...heard that. But my gut feeling tells me it's cover up at it's best.

 

[Mkandara]

Duh, wamefikia huko tena?..yaani kugonga kichwa kwenye gari ndio sababu ya kifo!..
leo nilikuwa nikiongea na MPakistan mmoja ambaye alisema mengi utadhani kapitia hapa kijiweni kwanza.
Madai yake ni kama alivyosema Game theory, yaani huyu mama anatufanya sisi wajinga baada ya kushika madaraka mara mbili kashindwa kuleta changes zaidi ya Corruption na kubebana, leo tuwe tumekwisha sahau jinsi walivyojilimbikiza mali!
wapo watu wengi sana wenye hasira na matendo ya huyu mama nyie hamuwezi kuelewa isipokuwa hizo hadithi za Al Qaeda hali hawa jamaa kama kuna mtu wanamtafuta vibaya sana basi ni Musharaf kwa sababu huyu jamaa ndiye anayewapa taabu kijeshi na wala sio siasa za huyu mama.
Nikamuuliza, je anafikiri nani is behind this... MUSHARAF kwa sababu huyu mama angeshinda uchaguzi swala la ku-share madaraka lingeondoka. Nikaongezea swali, sasa vipi ashinde huyu mama hali watu hawampendi?...
Jibu lake ni kwamba wananchi walalahoi wote wapo chini ya chama chake. Kwa hiyo yeyote angesimama nyuma ya bendera ya chama hicho angeshinda tu.
Pamoja na maelezo yake mengi nilijua yupo against huyu mama marehemu na chama chake but he made his point..

 

[Icadon]

Hii nimeitoa BBC

By Frank Gardner
BBC Security Correspondent

Who killed Benazir Bhutto?

The actual assassin, when and if his identity is discovered, was doubtless someone most people will never have heard of.

What matters is who sent him and why.

In the fevered speculation now gripping the streets of Pakistan there are essentially two conflicting theories.

The first theory, the one espoused by the Pakistani government, is that al-Qaeda or the Taleban, or even both, were the killers.

Certainly the method of attack - a suicide bombing in a crowded place - is al-Qaeda's favoured modus operandi, although the assassin was taking no chances by also opening fire with a pistol just before he blew himself up.

Both al-Qaeda and the Taleban had every reason to want Ms Bhutto dead.

Anathema to Islamists

As a secular, Western-educated, female politician with close ties to Britain and the US, she represented much that is anathema to Islamist extremists.

She also publicly criticised President Musharraf for not doing enough to curb their power in Pakistan and she accused the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's powerful military intelligence arm, of harbouring Islamists with sympathies for al-Qaeda.

Much will depend on whether Ms Bhutto's assassin was sent by someone inside or outside mainstream Pakistani society

If al-Qaeda was behind this assassination its normal tactic would be to wait for a while to encourage confusion and then release a carefully prepared statement on the internet, laced with religious phraseology, praising the assassin and listing its reasons for the attack.

The conflicting theory, taken up by many of Ms Bhutto's supporters, is that the government of President Musharraf is to blame.

Specifically, they blame elements in the ISI who they believe felt so threatened by Ms Bhutto's potential return to power that they took drastic action.

Inside or outside?

Despite the passion with which some hold this conviction there is no independent evidence to support this and in the absence of a truly transparent investigation the truth may never come out.

Woven into Pakistan's complex political fabric are a number of militant Islamist groups that belong to neither al-Qaeda nor the government yet have ties with one or the other, or even both.

For years the ISI supported the Taleban in Afghanistan and for years it supported Kashmiri separatist militants.

Although President Musharraf has gone to some lengths to convince Washington that he has purged the ISI and the military of anyone with links to terrorism, there are many who suspect some of the old ties have yet to be broken off completely.

In the coming days and weeks Pakistan's internal security situation will depend in part on whether Benazir Bhutto's assassin was sent by someone inside or outside mainstream Pakistani society.

If the culprits are found to be from outside, such as al-Qaeda or the Taleban leadership, then this could possibly have a unifying effect on Pakistanis, most of whom are appalled at this kind of extremist violence that has destroyed a national figure.

If however the culprits represent a recognisable faction from within Pakistani society - and especially if that faction were connected to the government - then there is a risk of far greater unrest to come.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/7163286.stm

Published: 2007/12/28 16:44:37 GMT

 

[Game Theory]

Hii nimeitoa BBC

ICADON

huyo Frank Gardner niliwahi kukumbana naye katika mambo yetu na vibarua hivyo namfahamu vilivyo. Saa zingine reporting zake utafikiri ni correspondence wa gazeti la SUNDAY TIMES kuliko beeb..

As much as BBC wanapenda kumpa some sort of authoritative say kwenye mambo ya security reporting na tatizo lake ni mtu ambaye yuko ideological driven au tuseme bias na hii imechangiwa zaidi baada ya lile shambulizi kule Saudia...mabozi wake wanalijua hili lakini unajua tena kila mtu kule Whitecity yuko sympathetic naye

Then again BBC nao washaingia kwenye huu mkumbo wa rotweller journalism kama private media companies.

 

[Game Theory]

Umeona latest video iliyotelewa leo? Interior Minister wa Pak anasema kuwa Benazir alikufa kutokana na impact ya kugonga kichwa kwenye gari na sio gun shot(s), madokta nao wanasema hawakuona bullet holes kwenye mwili wake.

Video hiko hapa

So far personally i am very impressed with the way Pakistan government wanavyoihandle hii situation.This is where i tend to agree with Musharaff, the military & of course the ISI. Siyo sie jeshi letu linawaachia watalii wapige picha kambi zao kwa kutumia helicopta za JWTZ

 

[Icadon]

So far personally i am very impressed with the way Pakistan government wanavyoihandle hii situation.This is where i tend to agree with Musharaff, the military & of course the ISI. Siyo sie jeshi letu linawaachia watalii wapige picha kambi zao kwa kutumia helicopta za JWTZ

Unajua katika ufuatiliaji wangu wa hizi Security Organs, nimegundua kuwa ISI wanaheshimika sana, sema miaka ya karibuni wamekumbwa na hii mikashifa ya kushirikiana na watu wenye siasa kali, ila mbali ya hilo ni among the best kwenye Intelligence community.