Call to Public Debate- Any Brave Atheist or Atheists

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

introvert said:
Buckled up.

Then answer it.

Why?

A loving creator that has power to stop all the suffering. Why isn't this creator not stopping the suffering once and for all?

What is the beauty in Cancer?

If you had the powers to stop Cancer, wouldn't you stop it?

Obviously!

Why allow pain to people you love unconditionally?

How do you know this God is a He? Not a "She" or "It"?

If he cannot get rid of the evil, either he cannot, does not care or does not exist. Pick one.

Why?

Touche!

Where is justice in Cancer??

Sometimes, means not all the time. Therefore, according to your own answer, there are other times that injustice is caused by something else other than ignorance.

If I may ask, who created ignorance?

How do you know this does not apply to God?

Infinite knowledge means he knows what will happen tomorrow.

If you knew there is going to be an ethnic war tomorrow, would you stop it?

His creation is flawed. Why create an imperfect system (fear, ignorance as you mention) and expect perfection out of it?

Has no needs? Really?

Doesn't this God want you to pray and follow whatever garbage he/she/it tells you?

Aren't those needs?

Who created this madness?

Who created these people who are mad?

How can the above not be attributed to God if all of the above is God's creation?

You create ignorance and you do not want it to be attributed to you?

GTFOH

What is the greater good in cancer, wars and injustices in this world?

Can you hear yourself?

What is the greater good for a kid bombed in a beach in Gaza.

Are you a fanatic?

How in the world can evil be good?

Look around you.

God is the cause of evil. God created evil.

Kwa kudra za Allah, means we actually don't have freedom.

Evil is a negative thing that is necessary. Quite a flawed design.

How can one have freewill if life is predetermined?

Not a single bit.

OMG!! introvert
I loved the way you presented your arguments! Couldnt have done it this well!

Nyani Ngabu · Aug 19, 2014

housegirl said:
So mwisho wa siku unakataa vitu kwasababu tu HUJUI!!!

Hapana, sikatai vitu kwa sababu tu sijui. Bali, kuna mambo mengine nayatilia shaka mojawapo ni hilo la evolution. Kwa kweli maelezo yake hayanishawishi nikubaliane na hiyo nadharia.

au ni cognitive dissonance?

Labda....

au its just as far as your brain can comprehend??

Well labda, lakini pia nadhani nina akili timamu ya kuweza kubaini hoja inayoshawishi zaidi kuliko ile isiyoshawishi zaidi. Na kuhusu hiyo nadharia bado sijashawishika nayo kabisa.

Unanikumbusha tulivyosoma Isotopes na half lives za elements Form 3. I was a hardcore Christian back then and it was evident to me tulivyoambiwa tu definition ya half life kuwa "no elememt should have a half life of more than 3000yrs b'se the earth was created 6000yrs ago". nilishangaa kukukuta isotope yenye half life ya 7000+yrs. Its impossible!! I just didnt want to accept that.

Nimerudi tu nyumbani the first thing was google "Does Thorium-229 really have a half life of 7340yrs?" heeeh!!! nikakutana na Uranium-238, ina half life 4,470,000,000yrs!!!!! housegirl the devil is making you see things. close that and go concentrate on the 3rd coming of Christ!! (hear that? the third coming!!!)

But I knew how to calculate half lives. I knew about the margin of errors.

baada ya kusoma waves, I guese so many zeros wont surprise you. infact the one with the less zeros was wrong. lol

few weeks ago nilikuwa nabishana na mtu. Anakataa kuwa vyote ambavyo astronomers wanaona kwenye stars zingine, actually happened millions of years ago!!! mtu hajui light years ni nini halafu ananibishia!!

the nearest star to us, apart from the sun is 38,000,000,000,000km away!!! light travels 300,000km per second. what makes you think the light tuliyoiona from that star ni imetoka sasa hivi? au mwaka huu?? haelewi!!!!

I guese its just of matter of reading and getting used to the reality. If you cant comprehend it, basi its just isnt for you!!!

Nyani Ngabu jinsi unaongelea evolution shows your ignorance on every aspect of it. From the physics to the chemistry to the biology to The MATH to the history. You even keep on repeating the same argument after showing you that its not that way!

How about you get a good book? Au nikupe link nzuri!!

Misconceptions about evolution

TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

Walas Ba

Labda kweli niko mjinga (ignorant) kuhusu hiyo nadharia.

Lakini siko tayari kukubali tu kitu chochote kile niambiwacho ili mradi kiwe na jina la sayansi nyuma yake.

Kwa taarifa yako hata sayansi haina majibu ya kila kitu. Na moja ya vitu ambavyo sayansi haina majibu ya kuridhisha ni hiyo nadharia ya evolution na ndo maana mi namba mikubwa mikubwa inarushwa tu bila umahsusi wowote.

Wewe umeamua kumeza mazima hiyo nadharia. Sawa, hiyo ni haki yako. Mimi kwa upande mwingine naiona ina mapungufu.

Kuanza kuzungumzia mabilioni ya miaka kujenga hoja ya evolution ni kukisia tu. Na huhitaji uwe na uelewa wa ajabu (ambao mimi sina) kujua hilo.

Jaribu tu kuweka mambo katika muktadha, hivi kweli kibinadamu miaka mabilioni wewe unaichukuliaje? Kweli unadhani hiyo nadharia iko testable na ina uwezo wa kutoa matokeo yenye accuracy kubwa?

Naikubali sana sayansi kwenye mambo mengi. Lakini pia nakataa kupofushwa na kila kitu kuhusu sayansi na natambua pia kuwa ina mapungufu na kwamba haina majibu ya kila swali!

Kwa hiyo, licha ya ujinga wangu kuhusu evolution bado kabisa sijashawishika na hayo maelezo ya nadharia yake.

Eiyer · Aug 19, 2014

KeyserSoze said:
Mkuu hivi unajua maana ya Imani (Faith) ?

faith (f th)n.1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or belief

Sasa Mkuu hii ni sawa sawa tukute mtu amefunika kikombe alafu atuambie ndani kuna milioni moja alafu watu tuanze kubishana.., mwingine anasema yeye alimwona jamaa kaweka milioni tatu.., mwingine anasema milioni moja haiwezi kutosha humo hakuna kitu..., mwingine anasema ameoteshwa ni elfu hamsini, mwingine anasema huyu jamaa huwa ni mwongo kikombe hakina kitu.... SASA kabla kikombe hakijafunguliwa mimi mpita njia siwezi kusema nani mkweli.., na hayo mabishano hayatakwisha hata kaka mimi binafsi najua ukweli ni nini.., ila ukweli wangu hauna impact kwa wale wanaoamini vinginevyo..., na unaposema Hindu wameingiaje wameingia hapo sababu na wenyewe wana imani yao ambayo ni tofauti na hao wengine..

Sijui kama unaelewa context ni kitu gani

Umeleta maelezo meengi ambayo hata hayahusiki kwenye swali uliloulizwa

Umeulizwa kati ya atheism na christianity ni kipi ni kweli,hiyo ilikuwa inamaana kuwa mizani inayotumika kupimia ni ukweli kama kuna kisichoenea kwenye mizani hicho kingekuwa sio cha kweli yaani ni uongo,kama vyote havienei vyote vingekuwa ni uongo

Kile ambacho kingeenea ndio kingekuwa ni jibu la swali uliloulizwa,sasa naona danadana nyiingi hata sikuelewi

Tatizo lako wewe unadhani umeulizwa kipi ni imani wakati hilo sio swali,kitendo chako cha kufikiri hivyo ndio kimekupelekea kuanza kuleta "difinisheni" ya imani wakati hata mimi naijua

Ingekuwa Dunia kuwa flat au duara nayo ni Imani na hatujui ipo vipi (kama ilivyokuwa sababu through lack of evidence..., ningesema inategemea unamuuliza nani kipindi kile ungeuliza kanisa Katoliki lingekwambia kwamba jua ndio linazunguka dunia.., ungemuuliza Gallileo angekwambia hapana Jua ndio halizunguki.., ila baada ya kupata evidence huwezi ukasema dunia ni flat utasema kwa misingi ipi ?

Nyie watu mna matatizo ya kufanana ndio maana mpo kwenye imani moja,yes imani moja

Context ya swali langu inatokana na context ya jibu lako la "inategemea na unaemuuliza" ukiwa unamaanisha kuwa ukweli ni "kutegemea" unaemuuliza kitu ambacho ni uongo kwani ukweli hautegemei mtu bali ukweli unategemea "ukweli" tu

Nilikuuliza kama unajua maana ya ukweli lakini hukunijibu na hii inaonesha hata hujui maana ya ukweli kitendo kinahikufanya ushindwe kuelewa swali linahitaji majibu ya aina gani

Nadhani kama umenisoma hapo juu na kunielewa hili swali lako limeshajibiwa hapo juu ?

Hapana hujajibu

Swali bado linahitaji jibu,umeulizwa "kati ya imani ya hakuna Mungu a.k.a atheism na Ukristo ipi kweli?

Kumbuka hapo mwanzo nilisema huwa sijihusishi na mijadala ya watu wa imani tofauti (sababu kwangu ni kupoteza muda) unaweza kubishana vipi na mtu anayesema amefunuliwa au ameona maona au ameoteshwa ?, unaweza kubishana vipi na mtu wakati vitabu (so called evidence) mnazotumia ni tofauti ? unaweza kubishana vipi na Imani ya mtu wakati yeye anachokiamini kwake ndio sahihi ?, Unaweza kusema vipi mtu anachokiamini sio wakati na wewe unachokiamini wewe kwake sio ? Ni kama watu wote mpo gizani alafu baada ya muda wote mnasema mmeona mwanga alafu mnabishana kwamba mwanga wangu ndio sahihi ?

He kumbe wewe unabishana!!!

Haya endelea na ubishani wako ....!!

whizkid · Aug 19, 2014

Stefano Mtangoo said:
Christianity or Atheism -- whats the Truth?

Tuangoma said:
You cant Choose the way you WANT God to be to believe in HIM or at HIM.

God is the way HE IS.
Its your choice to make reasonable understanding with open mind to be able to understand His existence.

You ask questions, I say to you if You got what your seeking will that be sufficient for you, your answer was NO!

Adios pal.
I am chatting to a brick wall.

I am back. Earlier, the discussion was more into Evolution and I chose to get out of the discussion. Some dudes were not being objective and the person who started this thread was acting very immature to say the least.

It seems things changed a bit. Some very interesting questions have been asked. Unfortunately, so far only the atheists or rather ones who debate on the atheism side are being more objective. What are the believers afraid of?

In my opinion, after reading through the comments, I think no one has been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt the existence of God. Of any god for that matter. And to that effect, no one on the Christianity side of the "Christianity or Atheism -- whats the Truth?" debate managed to convince us that Christianity is in indeed the truth. Why can't anyone (Christians) objectively answer the problem of evil?

Taking into account the good arguments and questions raised by Kiranga, introvert, and Eiyer I am inclined to believe that Atheism is in fact the Truth. Atheism is being generally defined as the rejection of belief in the presence of deities and therefore it is safe to say, deities due to their equivocal nature throughout all belief systems show all characteristics of being made up of myth than truth.

I think Epicurus was right. Before posing other questions, say about the problem of hell, I would really love to read a response to the modern version of Epicurus' logical problem of evil:

God exists.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Before you lynch me for blasphemy, I challenge you to also read this: God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs and come back with your comments.

Eiyer · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu said:
Labda kweli niko mjinga (ignorant) kuhusu hiyo nadharia.

Lakini siko tayari kukubali tu kitu chochote kile niambiwacho ili mradi kiwe na jina la sayansi nyuma yake.

Kwa taarifa yako hata sayansi haina majibu ya kila kitu. Na moja ya vitu ambavyo sayansi haina majibu ya kuridhisha ni hiyo nadharia ya evolution na ndo maana mi namba mikubwa mikubwa inarushwa tu bila umahsusi wowote.

Wewe umeamua kumeza mazima hiyo nadharia. Sawa, hiyo ni haki yako. Mimi kwa upande mwingine naiona ina mapungufu.

Kuanza kuzungumzia mabilioni ya miaka kujenga hoja ya evolution ni kukisia tu. Na huhitaji uwe na uelewa wa ajabu (ambao mimi sina) kujua hilo.

Jaribu tu kuweka mambo katika muktadha, hivi kweli kibinadamu miaka mabilioni wewe unaichukuliaje? Kweli unadhani hiyo nadharia iko testable na ina uwezo wa kutoa matokeo yenye accuracy kubwa?

Naikubali sana sayansi kwenye mambo mengi. Lakini pia nakataa kupofushwa na kila kitu kuhusu sayansi na natambua pia kuwa ina mapungufu na kwamba haina majibu ya kila swali!

Kwa hiyo, licha ya ujinga wangu kuhusu evolution bado kabisa sijashawishika na hayo maelezo ya nadharia yake.

Hahahaaaaaaa .....

Ukimhoji anakuambia uko illogical au atakuambia wewe ni ignorance .....

That's how she thinks

Ki ukweli billions of years ni jambo gumu sana kueleweka na haliwezi kuwa testable kisha kuwa observable

Nani anaweza kuleta ushahidi wa yote yaliyotokea billions of years iliyopita?

Hivi watu wanachukuliaje billion of years?

Au wanaona kama ni mwezi mmoja tu?

Au billion of years ina maana tofauti kwenye sayansi?

Eiyer · Aug 19, 2014

whizkid said:
I am inclined to believe that Atheism is in fact the Truth.

Are you a believer?

Nyani Ngabu · Aug 19, 2014

Eiyer said:
Hahahaaaaaaa .....

Ukimhoji anakuambia uko illogical au atakuambia wewe ni ignorance .....

That's how she thinks

Oh yeah...nazijua sana hizo tricks na huwa sikatai mtu akinambia mi ni mjinga kuhusu jambo fulani kwa sababu ni kweli sijui kila kitu.

Ki ukweli billions of years ni jambo gumu sana kueleweka na haliwezi kuwa testable kisha kuwa observable

Halafu hata lugha itumiwayo na kijumla mno. Unaambiwa tu mamilioni au mabilioni ya miaka. Hupewi namba au miaka mahsusi. Hapana, unapewa tu minamba mikubwa kiujumla halafu unaambiwa ukubali tu kwa sababu ndo sayansi hiyo. Please.....

Is it humanly possible to test and observe anything for such amount of years and get accurate results? Really? That to me strains my credulity.

Nani anaweza kuleta ushahidi wa yote yaliyotokea billions of years iliyopita?

Labda housegirl hahaaaaaa

Hivi watu wanachukuliaje billion of years?

Au wanaona kama ni mwezi mmoja tu?

Na wewe shangaa. Mabilioni ya miaka si kitu cha kurusha tu hovyo hovyo kama kweli una ushahidi wenye nguvu. Ni pale tu ambapo hujui au huna ushahidi wa kutosha ndo unarusha linamba likubwa kama hilo.

Au billion of years ina maana tofauti kwenye sayansi?

You know...labda ina maana tofauti kweli. Ngoja tuwasubiri labda watatupa ufafanuzi.

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

Walas Ba said:
Polepole kwanza kwani kwnye hiyo sayansi kuna utofauti gani kati ya theory na facts?

Na je evolution ni theory au ni fact na unipe sababu kutokana na jibu lako!

Umesema kwamba evolution ni hitimisho la vitu vingu visivyohusiana,lakin matokeo yake ikawa ni mambo yananyohusiana!?? Nipe shule na hapa.

Je wanasayansi hawana chomba cha kufatilia tena evolution maana mnasema. ni billion of years kwann pasiwepo na namna ya kurekodi aya mambo.

Tofautisha theory na hypothesis!

Evolution is fact! The theory of evolutuon tries to explain the process. Gravity is fact! The theory of gravitationvtries to explain the proceas.

Quantum theory. Tectonic plate theort. Atomic theory. mwishowe mtaanzisha thread kidebunk atoms!

Yes evolution is a conclusion from many fields.

Paleontologist atatuonyesha ushahidi wa fossils (wa kiumbe huyo, wanaomzunguka na mazingira)

Embryologist atatuonyesha mimba ya.viumbe yenye viungo ambavyo hapaswi kuwa navyo lakini ancestor wake alikuwa navyo.

Vestiologist atatuonyesha mabaki ya viungo ambavyo havitumiki lakini kiumbe anavyo kwakuwa karithi genes kwa ancestors wake.

Biochemist atatuonyesha ushahidi wa enzymes, proteins na genes za viumbe kuprove common ancestry.

Geneticist atatuonyesha DNA evidence

Morphologist atatuonyesha ushahidi wa viungo na mpangilio wake kuonyesha common ancestry

Geochemist atatuonyesha jinsi alivyo badilika kulinga na mazingira.
etc

(niliomba nipost essay ya evolution of whales.)

Evolution is a continuos process. haijawahi kuacha. we ukizaa tu hapo umecontribute kwenye evolution.

bacteria na fish resistence mnakataa kuwa ni evolution. maumbo ya ndege na samaki kubadilika mnakataa ni evolution. simply because you are not familiar with genetics. mnataka kesho bacteria awe mjusi¡ ignorance¡ just ignorance

Nyani Ngabu · Aug 19, 2014

housegirl said:
mnataka kesho bacteria awe mjusi¡ ignorance¡ just ignorance

Lini sasa bakteria atakuwa kama mjusi? Baada ya miaka bilioni 3?:biggrin1:

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu said:
Hapana, sikatai vitu kwa sababu tu sijui. Bali, kuna mambo mengine nayatilia shaka mojawapo ni hilo la evolution. Kwa kweli maelezo yake hayanishawishi nikubaliane na hiyo nadharia.

Labda....

Well labda, lakini pia nadhani nina akili timamu ya kuweza kubaini hoja inayoshawishi zaidi kuliko ile isiyoshawishi zaidi. Na kuhusu hiyo nadharia bado sijashawishika nayo kabisa.

Labda kweli niko mjinga (ignorant) kuhusu hiyo nadharia.

Lakini siko tayari kukubali tu kitu chochote kile niambiwacho ili mradi kiwe na jina la sayansi nyuma yake.

Kwa taarifa yako hata sayansi haina majibu ya kila kitu. Na moja ya vitu ambavyo sayansi haina majibu ya kuridhisha ni hiyo nadharia ya evolution na ndo maana mi namba mikubwa mikubwa inarushwa tu bila umahsusi wowote.

Wewe umeamua kumeza mazima hiyo nadharia. Sawa, hiyo ni haki yako. Mimi kwa upande mwingine naiona ina mapungufu.

Kuanza kuzungumzia mabilioni ya miaka kujenga hoja ya evolution ni kukisia tu. Na huhitaji uwe na uelewa wa ajabu (ambao mimi sina) kujua hilo.

Jaribu tu kuweka mambo katika muktadha, hivi kweli kibinadamu miaka mabilioni wewe unaichukuliaje? Kweli unadhani hiyo nadharia iko testable na ina uwezo wa kutoa matokeo yenye accuracy kubwa?

Naikubali sana sayansi kwenye mambo mengi. Lakini pia nakataa kupofushwa na kila kitu kuhusu sayansi na natambua pia kuwa ina mapungufu na kwamba haina majibu ya kila swali!

Kwa hiyo, licha ya ujinga wangu kuhusu evolution bado kabisa sijashawishika na hayo maelezo ya nadharia yake.

kama hauelewi basi! doesnt make it false.

what do you think of a star being 38trillion kilometres away? Au unafikiri they made it up?

Eiyer

Eiyer · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu said:
Labda housegirl hahaaaaaa

Lbda ndio huu hapa chini .......

Hahahaaaaaaa .... hawa watu ni noma!!

housegirl said:
Tofautisha theory na hypothesis!

Evolution is fact! The theory of evolutuon tries to explain the process. Gravity is fact! The theory of gravitationvtries to explain the proceas.

Quantum theory. Tectonic plate theort. Atomic theory. mwishowevmtaanzisha.thread kidebunk atoms!

Yes evolution is a conclusion from many fields.

Paleontologist atatuonyesha ushahidi wa fossils (wa kiumbe huyo, wanaomzunguka na mazingira)

Embryologist atatuonyesha mimba ya.viumbe yenye viungo ambavyo hapaswi kuwa navyo lakini ancestor wake alikuwa navyo.

Vestiologist atatuonyesha mabaki ya viungo ambavyo havitumiki lakini kiumbe anavyo kwakuwa karithi genes kwa ancestors wake.

Biochemist atatuonyesha ushahidi wa enzymes, proteins na genes za viumbe kuprove common ancestry.

Geneticist atatuonyesha DNA evidence

Morphologist atatuonyesha ushahidi wa viungo na mpangilio wake kuonyesha common ancestry

Geochemist atatuonyesha jinsi alivyo badilika kulinga na mazingira.
etc

(niliomba nipost essay ya evolution of whales.)

Evolution is a continuos process. haijawahi kuacha. we ukizaa tu hapo umecontribute kwenye evolution.

bacteria na fish resistence mnakataa kuwa ni evolution. maumbo ya ndege na samaki kubadilika mnakataa ni evolution. simply because you are not familiar with genetics. mnataka kesho bacteria awe mjusi¡ ignorance¡ just ignorance

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu said:
Lini sasa bakteria atakuwa kama mjusi? Baada ya miaka bilioni 3?:biggrin1:

unajuaje atakuwa mjusi?

Eiyer · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu said:
Lini sasa bakteria atakuwa kama mjusi? Baada ya miaka bilioni 3?:biggrin1:

Au trillion 3 ....!!:becky::becky:

Eiyer · Aug 19, 2014

housegirl said:
unajuaje atakuwa mjusi?

Hebu tuambie basi atakuwa nini? Au atakuwa eropleni?:msela:

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu

umesema " it humanly possible to test and
observe anything for such amount of
years and get accurate results? "

Are you familiar with half life of radioactive elements? Its obvious toe haukuchukua Chemistry form 3 coz me niliisoma form 3

Nyani Ngabu · Aug 19, 2014

housegirl said:
kama hauelewi basi! doesnt make it false.

And it doesn't make it true, either!

what do you think of a star being 38trillion kilometres away?

First I'd want to know is that an actual measurement or just an approximation. If it's an actual measurement I'd like to know how they got it. If it's an approximation I'll accept it without further questions!

Au unafikiri they made it up?

I'm not sure. What do you think?

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

Eiyer said:
Hebu tuambie basi atakuwa nini? Au atakuwa eropleni?:msela:

atakuwa vile mazingira yatamfanya awe!

Nyani Ngabu · Aug 19, 2014

housegirl said:
mnataka kesho bacteria awe mjusi¡ ignorance¡ just ignorance

housegirl said:
unajuaje atakuwa mjusi?

We ndo umeongelea mjusi na mi ndo nikauliza.

Sasa mambo ya mimi kujua atakuwa mjusi umeyatoa wapi?

Au unasahau hata unayoyaandika mwenyewe?

Nyani Ngabu · Aug 19, 2014

housegirl said:
Nyani Ngabu

umesema " it humanly possible to test and
observe anything for such amount of
years and get accurate results? "

Are you familiar with half life of radioactive elements? Its obvious toe haukuchukua Chemistry form 3 coz me niliisoma form 3

Jibu kwanza swali langu kama unaweza.

housegirl · Aug 19, 2014

Nyani Ngabu said:
And it doesn't make it true, either!

First I'd want to know is that an actual measurement or just an approximation. If it's an actual measurement I'd like to know how they got it. If it's an approximation I'll accept it without further questions!

I'm not sure. What do you think?

they ARE approximations with known margin of errors. you think because they approximated 38trillion then it might as well be 38thousand?

Call to Public Debate- Any Brave Atheist or Atheists

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member