If our President has more than one wife: The question of human rights

If our President has more than one wife: The question of human rights

Augustine Moshi said:
Ngekewa writes:

Polygamy is not a belief. It is permitted in Islam, but that does not make it a belief. Note that Islam does not require anyone to be polygamous.

I happen to think that polygamy is a primitive mode of existence. Developed countries have outlawed it. Within the developing countries, the more enlightened sections of the population have abandoned the practice too. That is irrespective of their religion. Young, upwardly mobile and educated Muslims tend to be just as monogamous as young, educated Christians.

I condemn polygamy. I particularly condemn polygamists who hide the fact.
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HOW FAR and How MUCH do you understand about Islam. Please do not talk on behalf of Islam and be content whenItell you that marriage is within belief.

If you are a Christian, does not your religion lay rule on marriage. For us who believe in God we take all instruction and commands by our religions as part of belief. I am sorry if Iwill offend you if I will ask you whether your companion (if you have one, because according to you to have a wife will be to deny human rights) have joined you through lawfull means of God or you just pick her on the road and claim her as your wife.

When we come to your stand on polygymy you are free to your stand and even criticizing it but not to go as far as calling it PRIMITIVE only because your masters condemn it. Your masters for long time has been "kufagilia" or blessing homosexually and will you still take them as good example for choosing what should condem?
You are suprised by Moses (Kikwete) actions please hear about the actions of the Pharow; Jacob Zuma, the expected President of South Africa is soon going to marry Thobeka Mabhilla as the fifth wife. Will you categorise hi fo us?
 
To each her/his own, I say! I havent been able to read the whole thread (too long) but as a woman I feel the need to reply. Whose human rights are we questioning here? Kama mwanamke amekubali kuolewa kama mke wa pili na mke wa kwanza hana shida yeyote and they have not broken any laws, who are you to tell them what is right and what is wrong? I am sure there are things that you do/believe which other people also think they are equally outrageous but you dont see anyone knocking at your door.
 
Tanzanian Female anasema anayeolewa mke wa pili au zaidi anakubali kwa hivyo polygamy si unyanyasaji wa kijinsia. Wrong logic. Na nilishajibu hili jambo huko nyuma. Soma postings zilizotangulia. Kama huna muda wa kusoma basi nakuomba ujinyime vile vile muda wa kuandika.

Ngekewa: Two wrongs do not make a right. Zuma might be using women as objects of pleasure but that does not justify anyone else doing the same. Evil remains evil even if it is embraced by multitudes. Some things are objectively wrong, and polygamy is one of them.

Interested Observer: Asante sana kwa data kwamba Iran na Turkey zimepiga marufuku ndoa za wake wengi. Sikuwa najua hivyo. This deals a big blow to the often proffered argument: "Islam allows polygamy and therefore we should allow it too". Non sequitur (it does not follow).
 
One just needs to read the initial post to be able to answer. Si lazima nisome kila kitu. Na kwasababu sina huo muda wa kwenda kusoma hizo reasons why ni 'wrong logic', nitaishia hapa.
 
TanzanianFemale said:
One just needs to read the initial post to be able to answer. Si lazima nisome kila kitu. Na kwasababu sina huo muda wa kwenda kusoma hizo reasons why ni 'wrong logic', nitaishia hapa.
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Ni wrong logic kwa sababu unyanyasaji hauachi kuwa unyanyasaji kwa vile tu anayenyanyaswa anakubali. Counterexamples ni nyingi. Chukulia mfano wa mwalimu anayewataka watoto wa kike wawe na uhusiano naye ili awape maksi nyingi. Watoto "wanaokubali" hawanyanyaswi?

Kwenye ishu ya kutosoma kwako post zinazotangulia niseme hivi: Umetoa hoja ambayo ilishatolewa na kujibiwa. Kurudiarudia sio tatizo?

You seem to be a calm and polite person. You did not respond with any noticeable annoyance. I thank you for that.
 
Example ya watoto wa shule na walimu, umesema mwenyewe ni watoto. Au unataka kusema wasichana chuoni (assuming ni above 18) wanaotembea na walimu ili wapate good grades na wao wananyanyaswa?

Naelewa kurudiarudia ni tatizo ndio maana nikatoa disclaimer kwamba sijasoma thread nzima. Ni kweli sikuwa na muda na thread ni ndefu sana kwa mtu anayeiona kwa mara ya kwanza. Asante kwa kurudia reasoning yako.
 
Watu wote (irrespective of age or gender) wanaotakiwa na wakubwa wao wawe na uhusiano wa kimapenzi nao ili hali yao iboreshwe, nao wakakubali, wananyanyaswa. Unakubaliana na hilo?

Unadhani ni kwa nini nchi zilizoendelea, na sasa hata Iran na Turkey, zimepiga marufuku ndoa za wake wengi? Sababu ya msingi ni kulinda hadhi ya wanawake. Sababu nyingine zipo vile vle, nazo ni kulinda hadhi ya familia, kuzuia uenezaji wa magonjwa ya zinaa, etc.

Huoni kwamba kuna "aibu" kwa kina mama kadhaa kusubiri mume wao kuwapitia kwa zamu kama jogoo? It's primitive!
 
Augustine Moshi said:
Tanzanian Female anasema anayeolewa mke wa pili au zaidi anakubali kwa hivyo polygamy si unyanyasaji wa kijinsia. Wrong logic. Na nilishajibu hili jambo huko nyuma. Soma postings zilizotangulia. Kama huna muda wa kusoma basi nakuomba ujinyime vile vile muda wa kuandika.

Ngekewa: Two wrongs do not make a right. Zuma might be using women as objects of pleasure but that does not justify anyone else doing the same. Evil remains evil even if it is embraced by multitudes. Some things are objectively wrong, and polygamy is one of them.

Interested Observer: Asante sana kwa data kwamba Iran na Turkey zimepiga marufuku ndoa za wake wengi. Sikuwa najua hivyo. This deals a big blow to the often proffered argument: "Islam allows polygamy and therefore we should allow it too". Non sequitur (it does not follow).
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Una mengi hujayajibu! Kama kigezo cha wewe kuona polygymy ni ' Primitive' ni kuwa mataifa yaliyoendelea yamepiga marufuku au kushadidia jee na hili kushabikia usenge ni 'civilization'

Iran au Uturuki na nchi nyengine yeyote ina haki kufanya uamuzi kulingana na imani zao. Pengine utashangaa kuwa Iran kuna wengi wanaamini kuwa mwanamke unaweza kumwingilia sehemu zote na hao hao Wairani wanaamini ndowa ya muda mfupi (yaani unaweza kuowa mke unapofika safari pahala na unapoondoka mke yule akawa basi.)
Kuhusu Zuma au Kiwete (iwapo kweli anao wake wawili) hakuna mwenye makosa kwani jamii au dini zao zimewaruhusu kufanya hivyo.
Nikurudusishe kidopgo: Binaadamu tunaamini Mungu na kila tukifanyacho kwa wale waaminio huwa tunafuata maelekezo ya tunaemuamini. Hakuna suala la unyanyasaji mbele ya muumini na ndio maana mwanamke anaheshimika anapoolewa na afanyapo tendo la ndowa anabarikiwa na kukubalika na jamii. Kwa nini tunawalani machangudowa wakati ngono wanazofanya ni haki yao ya kuzaliwa? Kwasababu kuna utaratibu uliokubalika nao ni ndowa na ndowa hiyo usipoifunga kidini (hata ya Bomani ina matatizo baadae) wenzio hawakuelewi na ni hiyo dini ndiyo iliyomuelekeza Kikwete ( kama kweli) aowe wawili. SI VIZURI KUMWITA KIONGOZI WETU PRIMITIVE UNLESS WE ARA ALL EVEN YOU pirimitivu!
 
Mkandara said:
Augustine Moshi,
Mkuu samahani nakuheshimu sana ktk michango yako lakini hili mkuu umekwenda mbali sana..sielewi kama umeuliza Polygamy kwa sababu Kikwete ni Muislaam (dini) au unametaka kujua legal status ya rais kuhusiana na polygamy...
Binafsi nitakuacha na hili moja - Nachukulia maneno yako kama personal... Ni matusi makubwa Kwangu, mama yangu, baba yangu na familia yangu ambao tumezaliwa ktk ndoa ya pili..
Bila maamuzi yao nisingekuwepo hapa kijiweni kwa hiyo, shika adabu yako!
Nilikuwepo!
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Oh dear, you made me laugh...
 
Bado sijakubali. Kama mtu hajapewa choice ya kama anataka kuwa mke wa pili au la ila amelazimishwa hapo nitasema ni unyanyasaji. Lakini kama mtu ana option ya kuwa na mume mmoja lakini akaamua yeye mwenyewe kwenda kuolewa kama mke wa pili then hapo sikubali kama amenyanyaswa.

Same goes to the example ya Lecturer na Mwanafunzi. Kama mwanafunzi amepewa ultimatum kwamba either atembee na huyo mwalimu au afeli basi huo ni unyanyasaji lakini kama yeye mwenyewe amechukua hiyo initiative ya kutembea na mwalimu labda kwasababu hajafanya kazi semester nzima na hataki kufeli basi sioni kama amenyanyaswa.

Kuhusu polygamy kuwa primitive, maybe it is. Lakini not everything primitive is wrong. At least not to me. Mpaka leo siwezi kumpa mkubwa wangu kitu na mkono wa kushoto maana niliambiwa sio heshima na chances are nitafundisha watoto wangu hivyo hivyo. Primitive, maybe. Hurting anyone? No.

Kwangu mimi unyanyasaji ni pale wanaume ambao wame-declare kwa jamii kuoa mke mmoja lakini macho juu juu ila hamna anayeona ni kosa. Wake zao wakilalamika watu wanawaambia "kubali tu, ndio wanaume" au "Shukuru kwamba kakuoa wewe". That I cannot stand.
 
Augustine Mushi,

Imenibidi nisome thread nzima in order to do it justice. Not suprisingly, kila nilichokuwa nataka kusema au nimesema kuna mtu ameshasema kabla yangu. kwasababu umesema topic ni political, I will say JK hajaviolate human rights na hajavunja sheria. Labda atakuwa amekosea kama kweli amemficha mke wa ndoa lakini hata hilo hatuna uhakika. It is possible kurahisisha mambo, mke mkubwa ndio ameamua kuwa kwenye limelight.
 
TanzanianFemale anatuasa kwamba primitive need not imply bad. Ni kweli. Mimi nilisema polygmy is primitive. It does not follow from that that I consider all primitive things to be bad. If you made that assumtion then I beseech you to be more cautious.

Nikupe mfano mwingine tena kuonyesha unyanyasaji unawezekana hata kwenye makubaliano. Wako vijana wengi ambao kutokana na umasikini, wanakubali kufanya kazi za kitumwa. Wengine wanakubali kufanya kazi kuanzia saa 11 asubuhi hadi saa 4 usiku, kila siku, kwa mshahara kidogo sana. Hawanyanyaswi?

Tuchukue mfano wa baba mwenye wake 3 ambao amewaweka kwenye miji 3 tofauti. Anawapa wakeze ratiba ya kuwatembelea, kula chakula, na kuwa na uhusiano nao kama mtu na mke. This is primitive precisely because it is from the past. It is also bad for a variety of reasons. I have had the ocassion to discuss some of the reasons in my preceding posts.
 
TanzanianFemale kandika:
JK hajaviolate human rights na hajavunja sheria. Labda atakuwa amekosea kama kweli amemficha mke wa ndoa lakini hata hilo hatuna uhakika. It is possible kurahisisha mambo, mke mkubwa ndio ameamua kuwa kwenye limelight.
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Anatakiwa awaambie Watanzania ana wake wawili ili iwasaidie kwenye kuamua wampigie nani kura. Wako wengi ambao watakataa kumpigia polygamist kura.

Unaposema hajamkosea mtu haki unasahau haki za huyo anayeonewa aibu. Kama ni mke wa Rais, kwanini asifahamike ili apate heshima anayostahili? Apewe haki sawa na huyo mke mwingine. Atumie ndege ya kifahari kama anavyofanya mke mwingine.

Watoto wa mke wa pili hawakosewi haki? Wanapata heshima wanayostahili kama watoto wa Rais?
 
Augustine Moshi said:
TanzanianFemale kandika:


Anatakiwa awaambie Watanzania ana wake wawili ili iwasaidie kwenye kuamua wampigie nani kura. Wako wengi ambao watakataa kumpigia polygamist kura.

Unaposema hajamkosea mtu haki unasahau haki za huyo anayeonewa aibu. Kama ni mke wa Rais, kwanini asifahamike ili apate heshima anayostahili? Apewe haki sawa na huyo mke mwingine. Atumie ndege ya kifahari kama anavyofanya mke mwingine.

Watoto wa mke wa pili hawakosewi haki? Wanapata heshima wanayostahili kama watoto wa Rais?
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Mkuu unaonekana huna uelewa wa suala la kuwa na wake wawili basi ni bora ukaomba ufafanuzi wa mambo yanayokutatiza. Unaonekana unahisi una wajibu wa kumtetea (Au kuwatetea) watu ambao hawana matatizo. matatizo unayazalisha wewe. Iwapo walikulalamikia basi kuwa wazi hapa.
 
As long as hao wanawake hawakulazimishwa, mimi sioni sababu ya kupiga kelele kama waliolewa kwa hiari yao wakifahamu kuwa watakuwa wake wawili wakishea mme.


Nadhani jambo la kujiuliza ni kama itakuwa sahihi kwa serikali kuweka sheria ama za kupiga marufuku au kuhalalisha polygamism kwa pande zote mbili. Yaani kama polygamism inaruhusiwa, basi iwe pia halali kwa mwanamke kuolewa na wanaume zaidi ya mmoja naye awe anawapangia zamu za kula nao uroda, yaani ziwe ndoa za waume wengi wake wengi; na kama inapigwa marufuku basi iwe ni ndoa za mme mmoja mke mmoja.

Hii polygamism ya mme mmja wake wengi inawanyanyasa wanawake na kuwafanya waonekane kama ni sehemu za assets za mwanamme, na mwanamme ana haki ya kuongeza assets hizo kadri ya uwezo wake. Lakini kama itakuwa ni polygamism ambamo mwanamme na mwanamke wana haki sawa, mimi sina noma. Najua sitaoa mke wa pili ili nimtunze mke wangu huyu asije akaolewa na mme wa pili, unaweza kukuta yule mme wa pili anajua sana matindo kunizidi mie.
 
Ngekewa ananiuliza kama mke au watoto wa Rais wamewahi kunilalamikia. Kwani anayepiganiwa haki lazima awe amekulalamikia kwanza? Naamini unajitahidi kupigania hakiza walalahoi; wamekulalamikia wewe kama Ngekewa? Nyerere alipopigania uhuru wako ulikuwa umemlalamikia?

Nashukuru kuona kwamba Kichuguu amekubaliana nami kwenye hoja ya msingi kwamba ndoa za wake wengi zinanyanyasa wanawake. Hata kama hawajui hivyo, bado zinawanyanyasa tu.

Hizi ni zama za AIDS. Mtu anapojitokeza hadharani na mke mmoja kupima UKIMWI wakati ana wake wengi anataka tumweleweje? Nadhani ujumbe ni eti baba na mama wapime, baada ya hapo wawe waaminifu. By definition, Mtu mwenye wake wengi hawezi kuwa mwaminifu kwa mwanamke mmoja.

Sheria ya kuthibiti maambukizi ya ukimwi lazima ikataze ndoa za wake wengi.
 
Sidhana kama Jk atakuwa anagawa dozi pande zote kikamilifu.....
A.moshi sawa kabisa......nashangaa wakina mama wale wa TGNP hawajaliona hili
 
Yoyo,
I too consider it a mystery that TGNP has never taken up the injustice of polygamy. A certain CHUMA here has castigated me saying that I ought to join the TGNP "genge" under which I allegedy hide and fight from! Well, I can't do that, as it so happens that I am a man!

Polygamy looks OK now, at least in the eyes of many here at JF. There have been many things that looked OK at some stage but were recognized to be evil later. It was only in 1920 that the US recognized that it was wrong for women not to be allowed to vote. Before that, it was against the law for a woman to vote.

At home, female genital mutilation (FGM) was legally and socially acceptable until just a few years ago. The change came after years of valiant effort by TGNP and other groups of gender activists. I predict that it is matter of a short period of time only before these kinds of activists turn their furry on polygamy. When they do, the practice will be exposed for what it really is: denigrator of women's dignity and spreader of AIDS and other STD's.
 
Whaoooooooh!

Kweli maiti huweza kufufuka. Mod alifunga mada kama hiyo ingaa yenyewe haikuwa kuhusu haki za wanawake bali athari za huyo mke kwa maamuzi yenye maana kwa taifa.
Kwangu kuowa wanke wengi is not a big deal as long wanawake they love it, but m'a problem is the impact of such relationship to the welfare of the Gentleman
 
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