Elections 2010 Shibuda ahamia CHADEMA

[Nyani Ngabu]

Kwa hiyo hata kama CCM ina strategy ya kupandikiza majasusi wake ndani ya CHADEMA waletwe tu, hamna kuwachunguza wala nini?

Kuchunguza muhimu lakini sijui hata utaanzaje kufanya huo uchunguzi na kubaini kuwa ni mapandikizi....

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Mpendazoe ni classic example ya kwamba watu wa CHADEMA hawataki mapandikizi haya.

Lakini si watu/ wanachama wa CHADEMA ndio waliamua, ama? Au alipigwa chini na powers that be wa CHADEMA?

 

[Mwafrika]

Mtu anakwambia "ukiendesha gari kuna uwezekano wa kupata ajali, funga mkanda, kata insurance"

Wewe unamwambia "hii ni scenario ambayo haijatokea"

Mtu anakwambia "ukitia bila mpira utapata miwaya, better wrap it up"

Wewe unamwambia "Hii ni scenario ambayo haijatokea". Yaani sisi hatujui "risk management" kabisa.

Mpendazoe ni classic example ya kwamba watu wa CHADEMA hawataki mapandikizi haya.

Kiranga,

Huyo mtu hapo juu yeye sio kwamba anatoa tahadhari bali anatoa onyo kuwa gari lisiendeshwe kabisa. Na anazuia kutia kabisa (celibacy?).

Ukiangalia hata wewe umebadili tone na sasa ndio uko kwenye insurance part ya argument yako na sio "dont do it at all" kama ulivyoanza (labda kwa sababu mifano yako ya marekani imegonga mwamba kidogo but that's another topic).

Ya mpendazoe ndio ina sum up argument yangu. Ngoja wana chadema wennyewe waamue kama wanamtaka Shibuda au la kupitia kwenye box la kura.

 

[Mwafrika]

Lakini si watu/ wanachama wa CHADEMA ndio waliamua, ama? Au alipigwa chini na powers that be wa CHADEMA?

Nyani,

Kiranga yeye anataka CHADEMA nao wawe na CC au NEC kama ccm ambayo inatupa watu nje isiowapenda. Hataki wapiga kura waamue nani wanamtaka.

Kiranga angekuwa kwenye ranks za democrats US, angepigana sana awe super delegate (inanirudisha kwenye kampeni za mama clinton vs Obama).

 

[Kiranga]

Lakini si watu/ wanachama wa CHADEMA ndio waliamua, ama? Au alipigwa chini na powers that be wa CHADEMA?

Ndiyo hivyo wanachama wa CHADMA wameona hii loophole ya mapandikizi wanaoweza kuwa mamluki. You have a point along your libertarian conservative lines kwamba ni haramu kwa powers that be za chama kuamua nani anaingia katika race na ni bora kuwapa wananchi uwezo wa kuamua moja kwa moja. I totally understand that reasoning, I am also of that persuasion.

With that adjustment in the discussion, then nawa urge voters wa primaries za CHADEMA kuwafanyia scrutiny zaidi hawa watu.

My opposition is now informed by some ultra libertarian conservative views courtesy of Nyani Ngabu, na kuwawekea opposition wagombea hawa katika ngazi ya chama kunawez kuwa unfair, in fact waachieni wanachama wote wa CHADEMA wanaotaka kuwa wabunge wawe contenders kwenye primaries, no vetting, no probation period, no drug check, no nothing.This is a recruits deprived army that will take anybody, come to think of it, hey, no drug tets ? Where Shyrose at? Girl better jump on the bandwagon if she wants to make MP, CHADEMA is very democratic, the people are better informed than we take them to be and will vote in the best candidate.

How about that ?

But one might ask, if that is so, why have a party at all ?

 

[Mwafrika]

Ndiyo hivyo wanachama wa CHADMA wameona hii loophole ya mapandikizi wanaoweza kuwa mamluki. You have a point along your libertarian conservative lines kwamba ni haramu kwa powers that be za chama kuamua nani anaingia katika race na ni bora kuwapa wananchi uwezo wa kuamua moja kwa moja. I totally understand that reasoning, I am also of that persuasion.

With that adjustment in the discussion, then nawa urge voters wa primaries za CHADEMA kuwafanyia scrutiny zaidi hawa watu.

My opposition is now informed by some ultra libertarian conservative views courtesy of Nyani Ngabu, na kuwawekea opposition wagombea hawa katika ngazi ya chama kunawez kuwa unfair, in fact waachieni wanachama wote wa CHADEMA wanaotaka kuwa wabunge wawe contenders kwenye primaries, no vetting, no probation period, no drug check, no nothing.This is a recruits deprived army that will take anybody, come to think of it, hey, no drug tets ? Where Shyrose at? Girl better jump on the bandwagon if she wants to make MP, chadema is very democratic, the people are better informed than we take them to be and will vote in the best candidate.

How about that ?

Now you are talking ... and we can loudly hear you now (verizon commercial).

 

[Mzito Kabwela]

Watu wana haki na wajibu wa kupigania haki popote pale walipo. Kuna kuokoka na kuzaliwa upya. Wanakaribishwa kwenye mapambano kupitia CHADEMA. Wasijikie huru, wala hawana haja ya kujiona wageni. Kanyaga twende, mpaka kieleweke.

CHADEMA tunataka ruzuku kubwa "tukiimarishe" chama. So for that sake wakija majangili, wevi, wabakaji potelea mbali ilimradi wanachagulika ili kuongeza mshiko wa chama kila mwezi kupitia mjengoni!

 

[Mwafrika]

CHADEMA tunataka ruzuku kubwa "tukiimarishe" chama. So for that sake wakija majangili, wevi, wabakaji potelea mbali ilimradi wanachagulika ili kuongeza mshiko wa chama kila mwezi kupitia mjengoni!

Hao uliowataja hapa hawatapigiwa kura na wana chadema

 

[Kiranga]

Now you are talking ... and we can loudly hear you now (verizon commercial).

But remind me again, why would we need CHADEMA in such a scenario ?

 

[Mwafrika]

But remind me again, why would we need CHADEMA in such a scenario ?

Which scenario?

Be specific (with examples if any) as I am trying to avoid the american politics cases you were trying to raise before.

 

[Kiranga]

Which scenario?

Be specific (with examples if any) as I am trying to avoid the american politics cases you were trying to raise before.

Hiyo scenario uliyo i quote hapo, kwani tunaongelea nyingine ipi katika mtiririko wako nami?

Hii scenario ya kusema "waacheni watu waamue" kwa nini tusiondoe vyama vyote, tuweke wagombea binafsi 100 kwenye primaries, wawili watakaopata kura zaidi waingie katika mchuano, atakayeshinda mbunge, hamna chama wala bs nyingine za katikati hapo.

Kama mnataka sana wananchi waamue kwa nini tusifanye hivyo ?

 

[Mwafrika]

Jiyo scenario uliyo i quote hapo, kwani tunaongelea nyingine ipi katika mtiririko wangu nami?

Hii scenario ya kusema "waacheni watu waamue" kwa nini tusiondoe vyama vyote, tuweke wagombea binafsi 100 kwenye primaries, wawili watakaopata kura zaidi waingie katika mchuano, atakayeshinda mbunge, hamna chama wala bs nyingine za katikati hapo.

Kama mnataka sana wananchi waamue kwa nini tusifanye hivyo ?

Unaenda kwenye extreme (btw - ni njia nzuri sana ya kuwin debate sometimes).

Kinachosemwa hapa, as far as Mimi na NN (kama nimemwelewa vizuri) ni kuwa, mwacheni shibuda ajiunge na chadema kama anataka. Suala la kupata uongozi au nafasi ya kugombea ubunge kwa tiketi ya chadema litaamuliwa na wapiga kura wa chadema.

Sidhani kama ni siasa nzuri kuzuia watu kujiunga na chama. Kama alivyosema NN hapo juu, utatumia kipimo gani kujua nia ya mtu (kama una watu milioni nne wanaotaka kujiunga na chama chako).

Ngoja wajiunge na chama .... btw ni haki yako kikatiba ... ila itakapokuja swala la uongozi, then wapiga kura wataamua.

 

[Kiranga]

Unaenda kwenye extreme (btw - ni njia nzuri sana ya kuwin debate sometimes).

Kinachosemwa hapa, as far as Mimi na NN (kama nimemwelewa vizuri) ni kuwa, mwacheni shibuda ajiunge na chadema kama anataka. Suala la kupata uongozi au nafasi ya kugombea ubunge kwa tiketi ya chadema litaamuliwa na wapiga kura wa chadema.

Sidhani kama ni siasa nzuri kuzuia watu kujiunga na chama. Kama alivyosema NN hapo juu, utatumia kipimo gani kujua nia ya mtu (kama una watu milioni nne wanaotaka kujiunga na chama chako).

Ngoja wajiunge na chama .... btw ni haki yako kikatiba ... ila itakapokuja swala la uongozi, then wapiga kura wataamua.

Wakati vitu vipo muddled up and tangled in jumbles of mumbo jumbo kwenda extreme ni njia nzuri sana ya kupata a clearer picture, kwa sababu ukianza kwenye extreme unaona gradation zote, kuanzia the darkest of the dark, the grey area mpaka the whitest white.

Unapata full view.

Ni haki ya watu kujiunga na vyama? Haki ya katiba? Katiba gani? Unaelewa haki ni nini?

Katiba kusema watu wana haki kuamua political association yao ni kusema wana uhuru wa/ haki ya kuchagua political association, lakini hii haimaanishi mimi niende kulazimisha niwe mwanachama wa CHADEMA eti kwa sababu nina haki ya kikatiba, at the end of the process, CHADEMA wana haki ya kunikubali au kunikataa, so much for "ana haki ya kikatiba"

Hujajibu swali bado, kwa nini tunahitaji vyama ikiwa tunataka kuwapa watu direct say ?

 

[Nguruvi3]

Ndiyo hivyo wanachama wa CHADMA wameona hii loophole ya mapandikizi wanaoweza kuwa mamluki. You have a point along your libertarian conservative lines kwamba ni haramu kwa powers that be za chama kuamua nani anaingia katika race na ni bora kuwapa wananchi uwezo wa kuamua moja kwa moja. I totally understand that reasoning, I am also of that persuasion.

My opposition is now informed by some ultra libertarian conservative views courtesy of Nyani Ngabu, na kuwawekea opposition wagombea hawa katika ngazi ya chama kunawez kuwa unfair, in fact waachieni wanachama wote wa CHADEMA wanaotaka kuwa wabunge wawe contenders kwenye primaries, no vetting, no probation period, no drug check, no nothing.This is a recruits deprived army that will take anybody, come to think of it, hey, no drug tets ? Where Shyrose at? Girl better jump on the bandwagon if she wants to make MP, CHADEMA is very democratic, the people are better informed than we take them to be and will vote in the best candidate.

How about that ?

But one might ask, if that is so, why have a party at all ?

Hapa nadhani tuna dance the same tune different wavelength Kiranga. Mimi nakubali kabisa kuwa kama kuna mtu amehamia Chadema basi he should undergo the same vetting procedure like anyone else. Mpendazoe amekwenda segerea wanachama wakasema no! wana mtu wao, hii safi sana. Lakini Kigamboni hakuna Chadema completely kuna ubaya gani kumuomba Mpendazoe akagombee kule!!
Hawa rejects toka CCM wana classess. Huwezi kunishawishi kuwa Selelii ni CCM reject, huyu amekataliwa na mafisadi Jaykikwe,Ros,El,Cheng,Ramba,Ngung etc. Huyu si reject hata kidogo. Mungai, Makweta,Idd Azzan, Sofia, hawa waweza kuwa rejects.
Karibuni CHADEMA wote wenye kiu ya ukombozi, mkae mkijua tuna taratibu zetu, na wapo mlikowakuta, na hakuna special treatment.

 

[Mwafrika]

Wakati vitu vipo muddled up and tangled in jumbles of mumbo jumbo kwenda extreme ni njia nzuri sana ya kupata a clearer picture, kwa sababu ukianza kwenye extreme unaona gradation zote, kuanzia the darkest of the dark, the grey area mpaka the whitest white.

Unapata full view.

Niliona hilo na ninaongea nawe nikijua kuwa unaongea kutoka kwenye extreme point of view.

Ni haki ya watu kujiunga na vyama? Haki ya katiba? Katiba gani? Unaelewa haki ni nini?

Yup, ninaelewa vizuri sana na naona kwenye paragraph yako inayofuatia umejibu nilichotaka kuandika.

Association .... yup, even political association ni haki/uhuru wa haki kwa mwananchi wa Tanzania

Katiba kusema watu wana haki kuamua political association yao ni kusema wana uhuru wa/ haki ya kuchagua political association, lakini hii haimaanishi mimi niende kulazimisha niwe mwanachama wa CHADEMA eti kwa sababu nina haki ya kikatiba, at the end of the process, CHADEMA wana haki ya kunikubali au kunikataa, so much for "ana haki ya kikatiba"

Hapa ndipo extreme angle yako inavyoshindwa (as always). Hakuna aliyesema kuwa wewe uende kulazimisha kujiunga na chama (kama ni mie, niwekee quote hiyo na so far sijaedit maandishi yangu so itakuwa hapa hapa]. Kilichosemwa ni kuwa, wewe una haki ya kikatiba ya kujiunga na chama chochote unachotaka.

Hakuna sheria ya nchi inayokuzuia kufanya hivyo.

Hujajibu swali bado, kwa nini tunahitaji vyama ikiwa tunataka kuwapa watu direct say ?

1. kwa sababu waendesha uchaguzi (katiba ya Tanzania?) hawaruhusu wagombea binafsi
2. Nipe mantiki ya swali lako, linahusiana vipi na kinachoongelewa? Je unajaribu kupinga kuwa sio vizuri kwa wanachama wa chadema kupewa nafasi ya kuchagua viongozi wanaowataka (na mimi naenda kwenye extreme kama wewe hapa)?

 

[Kiranga]

Niliona hilo na ninaongea nawe nikijua kuwa unaongea kutoka kwenye extreme point of view.



Yup, ninaelewa vizuri sana na naona kwenye paragraph yako inayofuatia umejibu nilichotaka kuandika.

Association .... yup, even political association ni haki/uhuru wa haki kwa mwananchi wa Tanzania



Hapa ndipo extreme angle yako inavyoshindwa (as always). Hakuna aliyesema kuwa wewe uende kulazimisha kujiunga na chama (kama ni mie, niwekee quote hiyo na so far sijaedit maandishi yangu so itakuwa hapa hapa]. Kilichosemwa ni kuwa, wewe una haki ya kikatiba ya kujiunga na chama chochote unachotaka.

Hakuna sheria ya nchi inayokuzuia kufanya hivyo.



1. kwa sababu waendesha uchaguzi (katiba ya Tanzania?) hawaruhusu wagombea binafsi
2. Nipe mantiki ya swali lako, linahusiana vipi na kinachoongelewa? Je unajaribu kupinga kuwa sio vizuri kwa wanachama wa chadema kupewa nafasi ya kuchagua viongozi wanaowataka (na mimi naenda kwenye extreme kama wewe hapa)?

Hakuna sheria ya nchi inayomzuia Kikwete kufisadi nchi kama akitaka,does that make it right kwa Kiwete kufisadi.

Ni lazima tuangalie zaidi ya sheria, tuangalie principles.Kama sheria tu zingekuwa zinatosha tusingehitaji kuzibadilisha, tusingehitaji bunge.

Ukisema najaribu kupinga kwamba wanachama wa CHADEMA kupewa nafasi ya kumchagua any Tom Dick and Harry na wewe utakuwa umeend the other extreme, which is fine by my books but not yours, so make up your mind now, are extremes OK or not ?

Ukiliangalia hili kwa mtazamo wa extremes mbili, moja hamna vyama kila mtu anagombea directly, au pili viongozi wa CHADEMA (na vyama vingine) wanaamua mgombea wa ubunge ni nani, no primaries, unaweza kusema extremes zote ni mbaya.

Moja iko almost kama anarchy, kila mtu anampigia kila mtu anayemtaka, vurugu mechi tupu.

Nyingine ni Stalinistic totalitarianism, vyama ndivyo vinachagua wabunge, wananchi wanapewa wabunge ambao vyama vishawachagua na hawana real choice, unaweza ku extend hii extreme kwa kusema chama tawala kikishinda popular vote ya presidential elections kpate mandate ya kuteua tu wabunge wote, hamna kupigia kura wabunge, usultani, next thing utasema hamna haja ya kupiga kura, Kikwete Sultani na atachagua sultani atakayemfuata, next thing you know anamchagua Ridhiwani and so on. Hatuitaki anarchu wala monarchy wala Totalitariam Tsars.

As in most cases, the middle ground comes to the rescue.Vyama viwe na role ya kuchuja watu, hatuwezi kumpa every drug addict nafasi ya kugombea ubunge.Hii ndiyo point ya kuuliza "role ya vyama ni nini sasa?". Roles za vyama ni pamoja kuchuja wagombea potential katika a very open and democratic way within the party.

Mfano wa masharti

Mgombea ubunge awe mwanachama wa chama kwa angalau miezi mitatu, ili tujue kwamba huyu kaja kwa ajili ya principles za chama na si mamluki aliyetoswa na CCM sasa anakuja kutafuta ubunge tu chamani kwetu.Ili kusudi tumjue kama ana hila, anatumiwa kama Jasusi wa chama alichotoka ama la.Ili tuweze kumfunza sera na manifesto za chama, si tunachukua jitu limetoka CCM lina siasa za ujamaa na kujitegemea, dakika mbili tunalivisha magwanda ya CHADEMA, siasa yetu ubepari, tunaliweka jukwaani linaanza kuongea ujamaa na kujitegemea, etc tec tec.

Hii ndiyo role ya chama, na as long as inatumika vizuri, hamna abuse, as long as the Shibudas of this world go to CHADEMA for the principles, and not because they are greedy to get back in parliament by any means, things should be fine.

The end message here is balance, the middle way, nothing extreme as you suggested initially.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Kiranga bana....mpaka nimeshindwa kuelewa hata unachobishania tena! Yaani sielewi kabisa. Total obfuscation....labda Mwafrika amekuelewa...

 

[Mwafrika]

Hakuna sheria ya nchi inayomzuia Kikwet kufisadi nchi kama akitaka,does that make is right kwa Kiwete kufisadi.

Ni lazima tuangalie zaidi ya sheria, tuangalie principles.Kama sheria tu zingekuwa zinatosha tusingehitaji kuzibadilisha, tusingehitaji bunge.

Another extreme ... hii haina uhusiano wowote na kinachoongelewa hapo juu.

Ukisema najaribu kupinga kwamba wanachama wa CHADEMA kupewa nafasi ya kumchagua any Tom Dick and Harry na wewe utakuwa umeend the other extreme, which is fine by my books but not yours, so make up your mind now, are extremes OK or not ?

Ndio maana nilikuambia kuwa na mimi nikienda kwenye extreme argument zako, nitakuuliza kwa nini hutaki chadema wapige kura kuchagua viongozi wao. Kwa vile sioni kama una mpango wa kuja katikati kwenye uwanja mpana wa debate.

Niko tayari kwa extremes zako.

Ukiliangalia hili kwa mtazamo wa extremes mbili, moja hamna vyama kila mtu anagombea directly, au pili viongozi wa CHADEMA (na vyama vingine) wanaamua mgombea wa ubunge ni nani, no primaries, unaweza kusema extremes zote ni mbaya.

Moja iko almost kama anarchy, kila mtu anampigia kila mtu anayemtaka, vurugu mechi tupu.

Nyingine ni Stalinistic totalitarianism, vyama ndivyo vinachagua wabunge, wananchi wanapewa wabunge ambao vyama vishawachagua na hawana real choice, unaweza ku extend hii extreme kwa kusema chama tawala kikishinda popular vote ya presidential elections kpate mandate ya kuteua tu wabunge wote, hamna kupigia kura wabunge, usultani, next thing utasema hamna haja ya kupiga kura, Kikwete Sultani na atachagua sultani atakayemfuata, next thing you know anamchagua Ridhiwani and so on. Hatuitaki anarchu wala monarchy wala Totalitariam Tsars.

Ndio maana mimi nimejaribu kuonya hizo extreme positions zako. Huwa hazifanyi vizuri kazi kwenye ulimwengu wa sasa.

As in most cases, the middle ground comes to the rescue.Vyama viwe na role ya kuchuja watu, hatuwezi kumpa every drug addict nafasi ya kugombea ubunge.Hii ndiyo point ya kuuliza "role ya vyama ni nini sasa?". Roles za vyama ni pamoja kuchuja wagombea potential katika a very open and democratic way within the party.

Kiranga,

Hapa tunakubaliana (nashangaa bado kwa nini hujaona hilo). Vyama vinachagua nani vinamtaka. Tofauti yangu na wewe ni kuwa, unapoongelea vyama, unaongelea nani?

Mimi - wanachama wa vyama (wakipiga kura)
Wewe - some smart guys makao makuu (wanamkataa Shibuda hata kabla hajajiunga na chama).

Mfano wa masharti

Mgombea ubunge awe mwanachama wa chama kwa angalau miezi mitatu, ili tujue kwamba huyu kaja kwa ajili ya principles za chama na si mamluki aliyetoswa na CCM sasa anakuja kutafuta ubunge tu chamani kwetu.Ili kusudi tumjue kama ana hila, anatumiwa kama Jasusi wa chama alichotoka ama la.Ili tuweze kumfunza sera na manifesto za chama, si tunachukua jitu limetoka CCM lina siasa za ujamaa na kujitegemea, dakika mbili tunalivisha magwanda ya CHADEMA, siasa yetu ubepari, tunaliweka jukwaani linaanza kuongea ujamaa na kujitegemea, etc tec tec.

Kweli, na wana chama hao hao ndio wanatunga hizo katiba za vyama kuamua haya.

I am with you ... naomba uniunge mkono kwenye moto yangu ya power to the people

Hii ndiyo role ya chama, na as long as inatumika vizuri, hamna abuse, as long as the Shibudas of this world go to CHADEMA for the principles, and not because they are greedy to get back in parliament by any means, things should be fine.

The end message here is balance, the middle way, nothing extreme as you suggested initially.

Hapa tunakubaliana kabisa na ndicho nilikuambia kwenye post pale juu kuwa ... you were talking!

Ukiwa kwenye balanced view kama hii tunaelewana zaidi ya unapokuwa kwenye extreme angles zako ambazo most of time huwa mimi nakwepa debates zako.

Huwa sina pa kuanzia... unakuwa all over the place (map ya us bila GPS).... utajikuta uko Salt Lake kule Utah.... nisikilizie kipigo toka kwa mormons.... atheist kama wewe utakosa pa kukimbilia (just saying).

 

[Mwafrika]

Kiranga bana....mpaka nimeshindwa kuelewa hata unachobishania tena! Yaani sielewi kabisa. Total obfuscation....labda Mwafrika amekuelewa...

Tatizo huwa anaenda kwenye extremes sana na inakuwa kazi kumrudisha kwenye the main argument.

Mara nyingi mimi hukwepa debates zake..... ni ngumu sana ku-maintain point of order (if at all)

 

[Kiranga]

Tatizo huwa anaenda kwenye extremes sana na inakuwa kazi kumrudisha kwenye the main argument.

Mara nyingi mimi hukwepa debates zake..... ni ngumu sana ku-maintain point of order (if at all)

Umeona lakini nilivyokupigia extremes za anarchy na totalitarian systems halafu nikakurudisha kwenye middle way ya party politics na kwa nini ni muhimu kuwa na party vetting process?

Nimetumia extremes kama vehicles za kuona umuhimu wa middle way, tulipokuwa tunaangalia middle points tu tulikuwa hatuzioni katika larger context, sasa ukiingiz extremes zote ndipo unapoona kun umuhimu wa kuwa na middle way somewhere, not too hot, not too cold, just right.Then you can't get iced or torched, and you can actually enjoy the drink/ bath.