Swali: Kuna Mawakili/Wanasheria ambao sio Wasomi?

[jaywacnza]

Usirudie kudesa......sawa?

poa mzaz, ila kunajamaa mmoja maeneo ya sinza anajiita wakili ambae hajasomea Muhaya huyo, anajitaid kdg, mfuas wa hawa ng'umbi aliyegombea uchaguz upande wa ccm,

 

[josias]

Nadhan, huwez kuwa learned bila kuwa educated lakin unaweza kuwa educated bila kuwa leanerd, learned is practical from theories na education may be theoritically or practically au vyote kwa ujumla

Nina pingana vikali na neno learned hakuna category ya m2 inaitwa learned........unafananisha skilled na educated? make m2 anaweza kuwa skilled then akawa educated ili kuongeza ufanisi....... mtu asiye jua kiingereza ndo atajiita learned na atadharaulika kwa kuongea broken English

 

[josias]

poa mzaz, ila kunajamaa mmoja maeneo ya sinza anajiita wakili ambae hajasomea Muhaya huyo, anajitaid kdg, mfuas wa hawa ng'umbi aliyegombea uchaguz upande wa ccm,

usidanganywe na huyo kujiita wakili make hata PROF.Jay anajiita professor Jay wakati sio professor kitaaruma na hatuweza kumuita professor kwa uzoefu!!!!!

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

mfano driving school ni learning cz ni practicaly, cpo kiubishan lakn

Dah! Majanga!

 

[jaywacnza]

WOTE MMKOSA TOFAUT KAT YA EDUCATION NA LEARNING HII HAPA Education vs Learning
Education can be said to be a process through which a
society passes on the knowledge, values and skills from
one generation to another. Learning can be defined as the
acquiring of new skills, knowledge, and values.

 

[jaywacnza]

Dah! Majanga!

we Mzungu wa meri meri, hatupo kwenye kipind cha english hapa, angekuwa mwenue lugha yake angenielewa mbongo mwenzangu unaniponda du

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

we Mzungu wa meri meri, hatupo kwenye kipind cha english hapa, angekuwa mwenue lugha yake angenielewa mbongo mwenzangu unaniponda du

You suck even in Kiswahili!

 

[mjasiliaupeo]

wakuu asanten kwa kubadilishana hoja japo mjadala bado unafukuta, lakini labda tuendelee kujiuliza, hili neno "mwanasheria msomi" linatumika duniani na linatambulika? au ni kutumia kigezo cha elimu yao kuwa "updated" kila muda? na kwa watu ambao wameshawahi kuishi nje ya Tanzania "especial abroad" wamewahi kukutana na kitu kama hiki?

 

[mossad007]

wakuu asanten kwa kubadilishana hoja japo mjadala bado unafukuta, lakini labda tuendelee kujiuliza, hili neno "mwanasheria msomi" linatumika duniani na linatambulika? au ni kutumia kigezo cha elimu yao kuwa "updated" kila muda? na kwa watu ambao wameshawahi kuishi nje ya Tanzania "especial abroad" wamewahi kukutana na kitu kama hiki?

Huo utamaduni umetoka nje hata hivyo.. Hukumu nyingi tu za Lord Denning ame reffer hilo neno.

 

[mjasiliaupeo]

Huo utamaduni umetoka nje hata hivyo.. Hukumu nyingi tu za Lord Denning ame reffer hilo neno.

asante sana mkuu!

 

[EMT]

Wakili maana yake mtetezi, hata mtu wa darasa la saba anaruhusiwa kwenda kumtetea mtu mahakamani na anaweza kitwa wakili, ila sio wakili msomi, Mtu aliyesomea sheria na akaenda kumtetea mtu mahakamani ataitwa wakili, wakili msomi.

"Wakili msomi" sounds as a vestigial phrase to me. I can't see the real meaning in it. Hiyo tofauti uliyoitoa ina-sound very artificial na wakati mwingine inafanya watu wengine wawaone mawakili kama watu ambao ni very arrogant, self-obsessed and out of touch with the real world.

Anyway, lets assume you are right. Hiyo distinction ina-apply tuu kwa nchi kama Tanzania zilizo na "fused" system au kwa nchi nyingine pia zilizo na "split" system?

Kwa mfano, Uingereza wana "split" system ambapo kuna mgawanyo wa kazi za kisheria kati ya aina mbili za wanasheria yaani barristers na solicitors.

Generally, barristers (ambao tunaweza kusema ndiyo advocates aka mawakili) ndiyo wanaoenda mahakamani kutetea watu.

Traditionally, solicitors wanakutana na mteja, wanachambua kesi yake, nyaraka, nk; wanawasiliana na upande mwingine wa kesi halafu baada ya hapo wana-instruct barrister kwenda mahakamani kumwakilisha mteja on their behalf.

Kesi ikifika mahakamani barrister ndiyo anakuwa mhusika mkuu, huku solicitor ikiishia kuchukua notes tuu, kuleta mafaili, nk.

Je, tukitumia definition yako kuwa "wakili msomi" ni mtu aliyesomea sheria na akaenda kumtetea mtu mahakamani, tunaweza kusema kuwa solicitors siyo "mawakili wasomi"?

Kama siyo "mawakili wasomi" ni akina nani? Ninaweza kumwita solicitor "my learned friend" or just "my friend" or even a "non-learned" friend?

 

[Mbeky]

Wewe hujui halafu unataka kujifanya mjanja!!
Hapa umetoa ufafanuzi au umeuliza ili ueleweshwe!??

Sasa unauliza kama mimi nimesoma sheria, shida yako wewe ni kujua taaluma yangu au usahihi wa majibu yangu!??
Hakuna sheria yeyote inayoweka masharti ya viwango vya elimu vya mtetezi(wakili) mahakamani.
Nenda vijijini kwenye mahakama za mwanzo halafu uliza mtetezi wa mtuhumiwa ana elimu gani.
Mimi mzee wangu hata darasa la saba hakufika( aliishia la nne la zamani), lakini watu wakipata kesi walikuwa wanamfuata ili akawatetee mahakamani.

Sawa bas ngoja nikufundishe usiendelee kupotosha watu.
The Advocates Act cap. 341 as Amended [2002] inasema hivi.
Kwanza ili uwe Advocate
Section 8(1) A person may apply to the Chief Justice to be adnitted as an advocate
(a) If he holds one of the following qualifications, that is to say
(i) Holder of Degree in Law granted after examination by the University of East Africa or the University of Dar es Salaam or other Institution as my be recognised.
(ii) If he's a legal practitioner and thereby has a right of audience before any court having unlimited jurusdiction in civil & criminal matter in any commonwealth country.
(iii) If he's a solicitor of the supreme court in England, Northen Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.
Mjuni Lwambo tuambie HAPA MTU WA DARASA LA SABA ANAFIT WAP..???

Haya tuje kwenye katazo
Section 41.
(1) No "unqualified" person shall act as an advocate, or agent for suitors or as such issue out any summons or other process or commence or carry on or defend any action, suit or other proceeding in the name of any other person or in his own name in any court of civil or criminal jurisdiction or act as an advocate in any cause or matter, civil or criminal.
Section 42. Imeweka fine ya shilling million moja au kifungo cha miezi 12 kwa mtu atakaye kiuka section 41.
Halafu kwa taarifa yako tu Advocate hasimami Primary Court kisheria mashauri yote ya Mahakama ya mwanzo yanaamuliwa na Sheria inaitwa Magistrates Courts Act 1981 (R.E 2002) na sheria nyngne Shirikishi ambako legal complication ndogo na ndio maana zaman walikua wanachukua mahakimu wenye certificate (Sasa sheria inabadikishwa ku accomodate maadvocate na wameshaanza kuajiri mahakimu wenye shahada ya kwanza.
Mimi sihitaji kwenda kuuliza watu, am among those wa kuulizwa nimekupa legal facts usiongelee mambo ya sheria ki ubishani wa vijiweni njoo hapa na facts hii ni sayar ya wasomi sasa kama ulidhani najifanya mjanja am sorry mimi sipo huko mi nimeona nigusie pale ulipowapotosha watu. Njoo hapa na vifungu vya sheria sio maneno matupu ili watu wapate elimu na sio ubishi huo hauelimishi.

Wakili msomi mossad007 naomba niongezee katika kumuelimisha ndugu yetu Mjuni Lwambo.
Kwanza kwa kupitia maelezo yake nimegundua ndugu Mjuni we ni layman yahani sio mwanasheria ila unafatilia fatilia mambo ya sheria either kwa kupita pita mahakamani au kwa kusikia stories za mahakamani kama sio movies...
Ndugu yangu Mjuni elewa kuwa mwanasheria sio kujua kuzisoma sheria mbali mbali bali ni kuzitafsiri..it's not a simple job brother...
Back to the topic..Wakili huyu ndugu Mjuni kashindwa kutofautisha Advocate in legal context na Legal /personal representative pia ameshindwa kuelewa kwamba sio kila anasima mahakamani anafanya shughuli za uwakilishi..
Na mpaka hivi sasa tunavyoongea primary court hawingii mawakili..kinachofanika kama wewe bwana Mjuni unanishtaki mimi Mbeky basi mimi na wewe tunaenda mbele ya hakimu nakujitetea na hakuna hatakae wakilishwa na wakili..kwa hiyo wewe kitendo cha kujitetea akikufanyi uitwe Wakili..
Swala la baba ako darasa la saba kuisimama mahakamani kwenye kesi za watu wengine inaweza kuwa ni:
1. kama alisimama kama shahidi
2. Kimakosa/kiujanja ujanja sababu ni kijijini watu hawajui sheria vizuri
3. Alisimama kama personal representative hila sio kwenye mashauri ya jinai bali ni mashauri ya madai na sio yote bali ni yale yanayomuhusu mtoto chini ya miaka 18 (kama next friend) au kwenye mashauri yanayohusu migogoro ya ardhi (lakini haya hayaendi primary court)
Sikutaka kuendelea kukuelezea tofauti ya mwanasheria na wakili maana wakili katoa maelezo ya kutosha plus authorities
My take ndugu yangu Mjuni mambo ya Sheria waachie wanasheria tu...

 

[OLESAIDIMU]

WOTE MMKOSA TOFAUT KAT YA EDUCATION NA LEARNING HII HAPA Education vs Learning
Education can be said to be a process through which a
society passes on the knowledge, values and skills from
one generation to another. Learning can be defined as the
acquiring of new skills, knowledge, and values.

Sasa Chuo kikuu si yote yanapatikana au wewe unaonaje?????!!!!
Na kwa hii hoja mjadala unaendelea au unakuwa umefungwa? ???!!!

 

[OLESAIDIMU]

samaan nimevamia fani, nimejaribu kufananisha na kitu fulan, kozi nliyosoma kuna module ilikuwa inaitwa law of evidence, nikacompare section fulan ambayo inahusu utoaji wa ushaid au maexpert kuna profeshno,experienced nk, mfano profeshno ni daktar na experienced ni mzee ambaye ana uelewa wa kitu fulan kwa muda mrefu so , kuhusu muhur atatumia wa hao learned kwan kuna shda gan?

Kuna vigezo kwa mwanasheria wakili kupewa na kutumia muhuri husika????!!!

 

[Mbeky]

Kuna vigezo kwa mwanasheria wakili kupewa na kutumia muhuri husika????!!!

Mtu yeyote anaweza miliki muhuri hata wewe swali ni muhuri wa nini....natumaini mpaka muda huu ushaelewa tofauti kati ya mwanasheria na wakili...
nadhani utakua unamaanisha muhuri wa kamishana wa viapo..ambao utumika kushuhudia viapo au mikataba au document yeyote inayotaka kushuhudiwa na kamishana wa viapo
Kama ilivyokua si kila mwanasheria ni wakili vile vile sio kila mwanasheria ni kamishana wa viapo kuna makundi maalumu ambao wamepewa uwezo wa kufanya kazi hiyo kama Mahakimu wa mahakama zote...mawakili binafsi na mawakili wa Serikali...
Sijui nimeweza kukupa mwanga ndugu

 

[OLESAIDIMU]

Mtu yeyote anaweza miliki muhuri hata wewe swali ni muhuri wa nini....natumaini mpaka muda huu ushaelewa tofauti kati ya mwanasheria na wakili...
nadhani utakua unamaanisha muhuri wa kamishana wa viapo..ambao utumika kushuhudia viapo au mikataba au document yeyote inayotaka kushuhudiwa na kamishana wa viapo
Kama ilivyokua si kila mwanasheria ni wakili vile vile sio kila mwanasheria ni kamishana wa viapo kuna makundi maalumu ambao wamepewa uwezo wa kufanya kazi hiyo kama Mahakimu wa mahakama zote...mawakili binafsi na mawakili wa Serikali...
Sijui nimeweza kukupa mwanga ndugu

Hiyo dialogue umeielewa iliyopelekea hilo swali??!!!!!
Umetofautisha "muhuri" na "muhuri husika" kwa muktadha wa wanasheria na "wanasheria wasomi"?????????

Anyway umetoa mwanga ila sasa matumizi ya mwanga huu na mahitaji ya "mwanga"vyaweza kinzana!!!!!!
Samahani lakini mkuu nawe pia ni "wakili msomi"?????!!!

 

[Ng'wamapalala]

Kuna wanaJf wanajitambulisha kwenye hii thread kama wanasheria/mawakili lakini nikisoma comment zao zinanifanya mpaka nipatwe na mshangao, uwoga na kutetemeka kunakopelekea kupatwa na huzuni na simanzi!.

Gosh, kwa mtaji huu, sitashangaa kusikia au kuona kuna watu wengi sana wasio na uwezo kifedha wako gerezani bila kufanya makosa kwa sababu walitegemea wakili wa serikali, na pia kuna watu wengi sana wenye uwezo kifedha wako mitaani baada ya kushinda kesi kwa sababu ya ukosefu wa wanasheria makini serikalini.

Sishangai kuwepo na matatizo mengi ya kuingia kwenye mikataba ya hovyo hovyo.

Sishangai hata wale wanasheria/mawakili wanaojulikana Tanzania kama 'makini au wazuri' katika utendaji wao lakini ukiwaona makamani wanatafsiri sheria unagundua ni mawakili wa kawaida kabisa kulinganisha na nchi zingine.

Mwanasheria makini mara zote anajipambanua katika umakini kwenye maandishi na kutafsiri maandiko achilia mbali sheria. Wanaojiita wanasheria katika hii thread hawajaweza hata kuonyesha msingi wa mwanzo kabisa ambao ni umakini katika eneo la fani yao.

Hili ni janga kwa taifa!.

 

[OLESAIDIMU]

Kuna wanaJf wanajitambulisha kwenye hii thread kama wanasheria/mawakili lakini nikisoma comment zao zinanifanya mpaka nipatwe na mshangao, uwoga na kutetemeka kunakopelekea kupatwa na huzuni na simanzi!.

Gosh, kwa mtaji huu, sitashangaa kusikia au kuona kuna watu wengi sana wasio na uwezo kifedha wako gerezani bila kufanya makosa kwa sababu walitegemea wakili wa serikali, na pia kuna watu wengi sana wenye uwezo kifedha wako mitaani baada ya kushinda kesi kwa sababu ya ukosefu wa wanasheria makini serikalini.

Sishangai kuwepo na matatizo mengi ya kuingia kwenye mikataba ya hovyo hovyo.

Sishangai hata wale wanasheria/mawakili wanaojulikana Tanzania kama 'makini au wazuri' katika utendaji wao lakini ukiwaona makamani wanatafsiri sheria unagundua ni mawakili wa kawaida kabisa kulinganisha na nchi zingine.

Mwanasheria makini mara zote anajipambanua katika umakini kwenye maandishi na kutafsiri maandiko achilia mbali sheria. Wanaojiita wanasheria katika hii thread hawajaweza hata kuonyesha msingi wa mwanzo kabisa ambao ni umakini katika eneo la fani yao.

Hili ni janga kwa taifa!.

Mkuu usikate tamaa wala; tuungane kushukuru JF na mtoa mada hii sababu kwa uzi huu labda tumeweza kupata japo fununu ya hali ya "wanasheria wasomi" japo sio wote lakini kama tutazingatia kanuni za sampuli basi twaweza jenga taswira ya jamii hiyo ya "wasomi" wa fani hiyo ya sheria!!!!!!

Tuendelee na tafakuli ya hoja

 

[Mjuni Lwambo]

Ofcourse I havent any deep knowledge about systems in the UK, including the legal system.

And to be honesty, I havent heard or read unproffessional people tempering with law matters in the UK. I can say its just a division of responsibilities, but both Barristers and Solicitors are lawyers(qualified in law). But the difference between them is that Solicitors are attorneys, means they can act in the place of their clients for legal purposes, e.g signing contracts and may conduct litigation.

Another thing EMT, which is very conspicuous, is that Solicitors are employers of Barristers and Barristers are forbiden to do anything without authorisation from Solicitors, but both are lawyers, In the fused system like ours, Barristers can just become Solicitors and vice versa, there is no serious distinction.

So you can your learned friends, not only Solicitors but also Barristers.

"Wakili msomi" sounds as a vestigial phrase to me. I can't see the real meaning in it. Hiyo tofauti uliyoitoa ina-sound very artificial na wakati mwingine inafanya watu wengine wawaone mawakili kama watu ambao ni very arrogant, self-obsessed and out of touch with the real world.

Anyway, lets assume you are right. Hiyo distinction ina-apply tuu kwa nchi kama Tanzania zilizo na "fused" system au kwa nchi nyingine pia zilizo na "split" system?

Kwa mfano, Uingereza wana "split" system ambapo kuna mgawanyo wa kazi za kisheria kati ya aina mbili za wanasheria yaani barristers na solicitors.

Generally, barristers (ambao tunaweza kusema ndiyo advocates aka mawakili) ndiyo wanaoenda mahakamani kutetea watu.

Traditionally, solicitors wanakutana na mteja, wanachambua kesi yake, nyaraka, nk; wanawasiliana na upande mwingine wa kesi halafu baada ya hapo wana-instruct barrister kwenda mahakamani kumwakilisha mteja on their behalf.

Kesi ikifika mahakamani barrister ndiyo anakuwa mhusika mkuu, huku solicitor ikiishia kuchukua notes tuu, kuleta mafaili, nk.

Je, tukitumia definition yako kuwa "wakili msomi" ni mtu aliyesomea sheria na akaenda kumtetea mtu mahakamani, tunaweza kusema kuwa solicitors siyo "mawakili wasomi"?

Kama siyo "mawakili wasomi" ni akina nani? Ninaweza kumwita solicitor "my learned friend" or just "my friend" or even a "non-learned" friend?

 

[Ng'wamapalala]

Mkuu usikate tamaa wala; tuungane kushukuru JF na mtoa mada hii sababu kwa uzi huu labda tumeweza kupata japo fununu ya hali ya "wanasheria wasomi" japo sio wote lakini kama tutazingatia kanuni za sampuli basi twaweza jenga taswira ya jamii hiyo ya "wasomi" wa fani hiyo ya sheria!!!!!!

Tuendelee na tafakuli ya hoja

Mkuu yangu ni macho lakini kibaya zaidi, wanapiga kelele hapa Jf kutaka waonekane kama wapo juu ya uwezo kifikra na kimtazamo kulinganisha na fani zingine wakati maandishi yao yanaeleza uwezo wao.

Mkuu, wala sijakata tamaa bali tuko pamoja katika kupambanua hoja na maandishi ya hawa wanasheria/mawakili wetu.