The so called 'GOD' from religions

[ZaBeast]

Abrahamic Religion was there,Before Moses wrote the so-called Bible
Otherwise you can't regard Abraham as 'Father Of Faith'

So it's true that,Religious wrote the Bible,but later Bible shape the present days Religions.

You simply you son why work so damn hard any way..

Don't make people think harder son@

 

[einstein newton]

As I know,Eternal is ability of Lasting forever,to have no end or beginning

I've not seen any problem between that definition and Relativity of time


No,you are mistaken

If you examine my argument,you'll see that,I have suggested two options,God or Universe as eternal power
And not God alone.


If you think that,My argument is inconsistent with Einstein's theory of Relativity
then you got it all backward

Can you show how the notion of Eternality violate known laws of Physics
?

How can causation be Relative concept in the first place?

Hey,young lady don't bother.
You know nothing about Logic of Existence.

Your argument attempt to Prove existence of god,but out of thin air you come up with two suggestion,God or Universe as eternal power

We know that Universe does exist,but not god

So before you bring up concept of god in your the so called premises,you must first prove his existence.

By the way,you're so cute

Welcome PM!

 

[einstein newton]

You simply you son why work so damn hard any way..

Don't make people think harder son@

I don't want people to think harder
Instead,I need them to think softly but profoundly

I only tells them truth,Just like Donald trump do

To accept it,or deny it.They decide..!

 

[Kiranga]

As I know,Eternal is ability of Lasting forever,to have no end or beginning?

How do you know so? How do you know there is such a thing as having neither beginning nor end? How do you know that this is not a figment of your imagination or due to the poverty of your mind?

If time is not even absolute, how can you say anything is eternal?

I've not seen any problem between that definition and Relativity of time?

Do you even know what relativity talks about and the larger implication on this subject?

No,you are mistaken?

You have not answered, why two things and not three, four or one thousand one hundered and eleven?

If you examine my argument,you'll see that,I have suggested two options,God or Universe as eternal power
And not God alone.

How do you know that "eternal" is even real?

If you think that,My argument is inconsistent with Einstein's theory of Relativity
then you got it all backward

What does Einstein's Theory of Relativity say?

Can you show how the notion of Eternality violate known laws of Physics
?

The notion of "eternal" is in direct violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law of thermodynamics is one of the most basic laws of physics.

Do you know what the second law of thermodynamics say and what are it's implication to the notion of "eternal"?

How can causation be Relative concept in the first place?

Because it it not absolute, nothing is absolute at the quantum level.

Your worldview is rather parochial and anthropic.

 

[cyhper_kyrpton]

Hey,young lady don't bother.
You know nothing about Logic of Existence.

Your argument attempt to Prove existence of god,but out of thin air you come up with two suggestion,God or Universe as eternal power

We know that Universe does exist,but not god

So before you bring up concept of god in your the so called premises,you must first prove his existence.

By the way,you're so cute

Welcome PM!

Kwani is not possible he came to exist from thin air? Au mnalazimisha ...yaan you can never prove the existence God by using science alone unless you want to end up with unsolved mystery, UFO zenyewe ni unsolved case the ability to appear and disappear without trace, speed that broke the law of physics, placebo effect another unsolved case..ground mnazotumia ni obsolete in prove his existence..faith i wont prefer to define it as the majority, faith is a bridge of understand things that laws of science can not solve

 

[Mish Albert]

The notion of "eternal" is in direct violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law of thermodynamics applied to all closed system
If Eternality is impossible,then Universe is not eternal because even itself is giant closed system too.

In other word,Universe was finite

suppose this is true

That was your previous statement which implied that you've agreed with my first premise

Something can never come from nothing

If this premise is at all correct and the Universe had a beginning
therefore Matters and energies were came outside the Universe
Because if Universe had a beginning then there was a moment when Universe was nothing

But Matter[something] can't come from nothing.

Because it it not absolute, nothing is absolute at the quantum level.

If anything is relative in Quantum level,why laws of physics still have same Mathematical form?

Does laws of physics are not absolute in Quantum level?

 

[tomjelly]

God is a myth.

Shikamoo kiranga

 

[Kiranga]

The second law of thermodynamics applied to all closed system
If Eternality is impossible,then Universe is not eternal because even itself is giant closed system too.

In other word,Universe was finite

That was your previous statement which implied that you've agreed with my first premise

If this premise is at all correct and the Universe had a beginning
therefore Matters and energies were came outside the Universe
Because if Universe had a beginning then there was a moment when Universe was nothing

But Matter[something] can't come from nothing.



If anything is relative in Quantum level,why laws of physics still have same Mathematical form?

Does laws of physics are not absolute in Quantum level?

All the known laws of physics break down at the quantum level.

A quantum gravity law, yet to be discovered, is needed.

All the existing laws of physics are limited to Einstein's relativity and subject to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

Do not confuse your anthropic observation of the universe with the actual case and do not take the classical absolute laws as accurate in describing the universe.

Absolutes are a relic of classical mechanics. That was updated starting 1905 with Einstein.

It appears you have not caught up with the physics of the last 110 years.

If you did not know that simple fact, you have no right to make sweeping statements about the nature of the universe, god and eternity.

 

[Mish Albert]

Kiongozi,don't mess up things
No any known law of physics,can break in quantum level.
If they do,the universe would be totally Incoherent and we wouldn't even exist either

Because our stuff are made by Quantum particles which operate in quantum level.
If laws of physics aren't there,they would not operate as they do.

Laws of nature are usually cease to work in seemingly infinitesimal scale of nature called singularity

Note,state of 'singularity' can not be regarded or included in Quantum level

All know laws of physics break down at quantum level

If you did not know that simple fact, you have no right to make sweeping statements about the nature of the universe, god and eternity.

Ok,it sounds like,you are P.h.d holder of physics and you know a lot about the Universe and nature of existence

Being ignorant of science,I'm curious.
I'm curious to see how exactly can something able to exist from nothing

Can you explain it to me?

 

[Kessy Wa Kilimanjaro]

First I have to say I was beginning to worry that the Tanzanian atheist movement was non existent and am glad to say you've proven me wrong.

Second on your first point I agree that for an incredible being as the one described in the Quran and Bible it sure is counter productive and contradictory to design beings with flaws, make rules that you know they wont be able to keep because of these flaws and then punish those beings for those flaws. Also I agree with the reality that most of religion is pushed by the fear of the unknown and the intimidating indoctrination of most of its followers happening at an age when the rational cognitive function of ones brain are most likely not fully developed yet.

The following point you made about human beings giving up their will is one I think I can elaborate further on. I think the tendency for human beings to crave order is because of the reality that we have no control in such a unpredictable world of unimaginable dangers. As animals who want to survive we not only have to worry about different species that are after us but also each other. I think this is what leads us to want to think in tribes with similar beliefs and the result of that is that someone will always capitalize on that in order to lead and survive even if it means creating an ideology that cant be unmatched or challenged.

I wouldn't go as far as to make the sweeping conclusion that all religion does is degrade its followers. As a matter of fact the following of Christianity only grew because of its virtues of inclusion no matter the gender, race or class one was coming from. Most historians agree this is what lead to Jesus' popularity.

On your six paragraph you go on to say that worshiping God is for weak minded individuals and it has no place in the 21st century. I would argue to the contrary. A lot of scientific, philosophical and cosmological discovery was done in the attempt to understand God more. Whether or not these intellectuals achieved that task they unknowingly made some remarkable achievements in consideration to the time they were living in and the resources they had. You then state that the reason we have life in this world and am assuming by "we" you mean human beings, is to experience life in this world, but i would argue who gets to determine that is the reason we are here. What of the other organisms and plants e.t.c. The conclusion on that issue would be that no one knows but what is fundamental is that we can make achievements for the moments that we are here such as technology and civilization and those achievements are probably all that we can claim we have before we leave and the best resolution would be to make the most of it.

You also acknowledged that Christianity is the core of most religions but i would go further and say its the core of most accepted objective virtues and moral values. Values of dying for ones cause, giving to others your hard earned achievements and prayer which is really a form of therapy. The reality is that even heathens say they pray for things and in reality its a passive way of dealing with ones physical problems in reality.

"If there is a prime creator in this universe then it is unlikely that he would interfere and impose on us by foisting his arbitrary laws, let alone need and demand our frivolous worship and blind obedience."

I think this is the one quote of yours that caught my attention the most. This is where I side with you the most. The concept of free will that is proposed by the Judea christian God contradicts itself when the God starts interfering in human affairs and influencing wins and loses for one side and pining sides against each other as we see in the old testament. This same free will God has ultimatums as a result of not following the rules. Is it free will if one has ultimatums to follow. Lets say that free will was never intended then why the servitude along with the ability to think on our own. Is it so that we can serve dis-contently because I assume an all knowing God would know that not every free will individual would want to serve.

You also do a couple of comparisons of Islam and Christianity. It is a common mistake to compare the two without a perspective on their history. The reality is that Christianity has and Old and New testament and a reformation of ideas and western thought and philosophy to go along with those testaments which make it far more morally superior to Islam. Islam on the other hand is under suspicion of being a knock off of Christianity with a bit of Ishmael's hate and a lot of coercion. There is no virtue in coercion.

I should make it clear that i'm not defending either and that past kings, catholic church, televangelists and many others in the present day especially in Africa, have used Christianity for their own horrendous gain.

I wouldn't say that religion is man made as our fears that result from our instincts themselves arent necessarily made by us. It is like walking into a dark room in the middle of a power outage and having to go to bed in that room. The whole night you'll be restless because you haven't seen what the room is like with light and so you assume the most horrendous of creatures are in there based on the shadows that are cast on the walls by the light from the window. As soon as you notice the moonlight you believe that that light is your salvation from this rooms dangers because it'll help you understand them more. The reality is the light is just there and is neither for nor against you but, the more the light lights up the room the more you begin to depend on it and come morning time you cherish and worship the light so it doesn't go away. The room is earth in this case and the light is simply what ever the causation of the universe is. For what ever reason the condition is the way it is and it doesn't mean that the causation is for or against us and probably doesn't care about us but it just is.

The few last points I should address are the fact that you acknowledged thought or to be specific the mind, the forces that hold the universe together, what people ought to think and the alternatives of the origin of the universe.

First the human thought and its distinction from other beings on this planet. The reality is we haven't come across a being that is philosophizing the meaning of life and trying to achieve things apart from its instinct nature. It is only human that do that. This is proof of the human mind. The mind take note, is not the brain but exist along with the physical brain. this is proven through the fact that human beings have instincts to mate incessantly for example but they withhold on those urges because of their ability to ponder on the moral and consequential aspect of such issues. If you have time you can look up the mind body problem.

The forces that hold the universe together are also another accepted reality that can only be observed through their effects. No one can observe the gravitational poles but we can observe the planets they hold together and matter falling as a result.

The reality is that it is to everyone's choice what they want to believe in. the final point is that any other alternative of the origin of the universe has to be very reasonable to replace religion or otherwise risk falling into the category of fiction and mysticism.

 

[Kiranga]

Kiongozi,don't mess up things
No any known law of physics,can break in quantum level.

You are exposing your lack of understanding of physics. Can you use Newton's laws of motion at the quantum level successfully?

If they do,the universe would be totally Incoherent and we wouldn't even exist either?

The universe does not get it's coherence from our understanding the laws of physics, it was coherent even before we existed.

Because our stuff are made by Quantum particles which operate in quantum level.
If laws of physics aren't there,they would not operate as they do.

Do Newton's laws of motion work at the quantum level?

Laws of nature are usually cease to work in seemingly infinitesimal scale of nature called singularity?

Do Newtons law's of motion work at the quantum level?

Note,state of 'singularity' can not be regarded or included in Quantum level?

This is not a logically structured question.

Ok,it sounds like,you are P.h.d holder of physics and you know a lot about the Universe and nature of existence

Being ignorant of science,

Do not leap into grand pronouncements about matters you are ignorant about.

I'm curious.
I'm curious to see how exactly can something able to exist from nothing?

"...how exactly can something able to exist from nothing?" is not proper English. Perhaps you should horne your English and read more.

Can you explain it to me?

Why must the explanation be restricted to a predefined duality?

You talked a lot about eternal, the universe cannot be eternal. If it was, it would have ended in a white death an infinitely long time ago.

Who is messing things up now?

 

[Mish Albert]

You are exposing your lack of understanding.Can you use Newton's laws of motion at the quantum level successfully?

Learn first how to distinguish between actual laws of physics and certain physical models which describe them.
Newton's model fails to describes motion of sub-atomic particles,but this doesn't mean that,Actual laws of motion have been broken up!

Thus why,in quantum world we need new model,Schrodinger's equation to calculate the motion of quantum particles

it was coherent even before we existed.

Wavefunction can never collapse unless you've observed it.
How can you know that,the universe was coherent if you weren't there?

This is not a logically structured question.

Did I ask you a question?
you've incorrectly quoted me

'how exactly can something able to exist from nothing? is not proper English.

I know isn't correct usage.
But language exist in many forms
That was Indian English.

 

[Mish Albert]

You talked a lot about eternal, the universe cannot be eternal. If it was, it would have ended in a white death an infinitely long time ago.

Well,Universe is not eternal

Nothing is eternal.

Eternity does not even exist

And everything is finite.even laws of nature had beginning.

According to standard model of quantum mechanics and Inflation model
Heinsenberg's uncertainty,implies minor violation of first law of thermodynamics.

Give rise to Quantum fluctuation which existed before birth of the universe,and created everythings
So,without Uncertainty principle
the universe that now exist,would not exist.

But,If everythings must have a beginnings,which then was a origin of Natural laws,uncertainty principle for instance?

Who is messing things up now?

I guess none!

I do not have enough evidence to back up my claim,for existence of God
But you can never prove me wrong.you can not prove the negative.

Let us agree to disagree Mr.

 

[mwaswast]

Boy,your argument still begs so many Questions
You've used Jesus as case study to justify your claim that Mankind would become a God if he know how to manipulate law of nature even though you don't believe in bible as inspired word from God.in your standpoint Bible is just piece fine of art,in other words it's book of fiction
How can you use fiction character[Jesus] to confirm your argument?
Can I pick any character from James.c'avatar to confirm existence of Alien?

secondly,I need you to explain how mindless-natural process[Evolution] can create order and complexity of Life?

if god existed I tend to logicaly think that he/she would do his best to notify his beloved creatures of his/existence,therefore preventing endless bloodshed as a matter of fact religion creates chaos and anarchy. the bible is a fine piece of art enslaving masses enriching a few.

the best way to know religion is finding the origin of man obscured by religion.

 

[storyteller]

kama mnaemzungumzia ni mungu na sio MUNGU,..sawa
MUNGU Yupo na ndiye atakayehukumu ulimwengu,..
nyinyi jidanganyeni na kupoteza watu wenye imani haba,,..
kumuamini MUNGU ni wajibu wa mtu,..
mwanadamu alipewa nafsi huru na kufanya anachotaka,..
ila angalieni msimdhihaki MUNGU,.MUNGU hazihakiwi hata siku1,.
huo uzima usiwape jeuri,..unamwisho huo uhai,..

kama mnaemzungumzia ni mungu na sio MUNGU,..sawa
MUNGU Yupo na ndiye atakayehukumu ulimwengu,..
nyinyi jidanganyeni na kupoteza watu wenye imani haba,,..
kumuamini MUNGU ni wajibu wa mtu,..
mwanadamu alipewa nafsi huru na kufanya anachotaka,..
ila angalieni msimdhihaki MUNGU,.MUNGU hazihakiwi hata siku1,.
huo uzima usiwape jeuri,..unamwisho huo uhai,..
Inahuzunisha sana kumkataa MUNGU,...
Mungu awasamehe sababyu shetani anawatumia kupenya roho chafu kwenu,..

Kama amenipa "uhuru" wa kuamua ninachotaka kwa nini aje kunihukumu kwa kile nlichoamua mimi? hapo sioni maana ya kupewa "uhuru", huo ni utumwa

 

[vCTRMA]

Kama amenipa "uhuru" wa kuamua ninachotaka kwa nini aje kunihukumu kwa kile nlichoamua mimi? hapo sioni maana ya kupewa "uhuru", huo ni utumwa

uhuru uliopewa ni kuchagua,...
kuna njia2 na zote zipo wazi,..
1.unachagua kufanya dhambi na kufanya uchafu wa dunia,..mwisho wake hukumu
2.kufanya mambo mema,kutofanya dhambi,..utaenda peponi/mbinguni
na kila njia kuna mwisho wake,...
so uchague njia njia uipendayo,...

 

[vCTRMA]

Kama amenipa "uhuru" wa kuamua ninachotaka kwa nini aje kunihukumu kwa kile nlichoamua mimi?

anakuhukumu sikwasababu yeye ndo kakuumba,....
so ni decision yako kma hutaki kumpendeze yeye(MUNGU MTAKATIFU) impact ziko wazi,..
na ukimpendeze impact iko wazi piaaa

 

[storyteller]

uhuru uliopewa ni kuchagua,...
kuna njia2 na zote zipo wazi,..
1.unachagua kufanya dhambi na kufanya uchafu wa dunia,..mwisho wake hukumu
2.kufanya mambo mema,kutofanya dhambi,..utaenda peponi/mbinguni
na kila njia kuna mwisho wake,...
so uchague njia njia uipendayo,...

Mungu ni pendo, sina hakika kama alikuleta wewe mwanadamu ili uteseke, sasa inakuaje akutengenezee jehanam(shimo la moto) na kukupa masharti ya kuchagua jema na baya, ana sababu gani za kufanya hivyo, je hii biblia imeonesha kwanini mungu atuchome baada ya sisi wanadamu kuchagua asichokitaka?

 

[Kiranga]

Well,Universe is not eternal

Nothing is eternal.

Eternity does not even exist

And everything is finite.even laws of nature had beginning.

According to standard model of quantum mechanics and Inflation model
Heinsenberg's uncertainty,implies minor violation of first law of thermodynamics.

Give rise to Quantum fluctuation which existed before birth of the universe,and created everythings
So,without Uncertainty principle
the universe that now exist,would not exist.

But,If everythings must have a beginnings,which then was a origin of Natural laws,uncertainty principle for instance?



I guess none!

I do not have enough evidence to back up my claim,for existence of God
But you can never prove me wrong.you can not prove the negative.

Let us agree to disagree Mr.

Negatives can't be proved, as a rule. That has nothing to do with this issue, it is the philosophy of proofs.

Positives, on the other hand, can be proved.

It is incumbent upon those who say god exists to prove that. That is the only way to comprehensively settle the question.

You have admitted inability to be able to show that.

 

[Arduino Sentinel]

Damn if If u still belive that there is no God!! Science has never explained the origin of life but rather gave simple excuses such as evolution and the bigbang. with all the complexity of life its damn simple to conclude that life itself began spontonously.
Its so futile to say the universe and the laws of nature just evolved by chance; be sane brother. To whom can u lie that your brain made itself from simple organic matter and patched itself on your head?
There is always an intelligent being behind your intellectual brain, behind the extreme universe who fashioned everythn into place. And that being is GOD
What then can you say of people who belive in God and witness the lame walking, blind recieving sight, dumb talk and dead coming back to life???? Is it still by Chance??? Is it still the so called spontonous theory taking place??
Homie, u can not denie the fact that GOD EXISTS! He strongly Exists and i can tell u a thousand more reasons. Again Dont be brainwashed by what the world say; decribe God from your own point of view.
Infact is better to belive that he is there and when die u meet him there, it no problem. But its a gnashing of teeth to believe he is not there and die and meet him there.

Did you even read what you wrote??You can't be serious!!!