This election is not about Lowassa, It is about us

[Sonko Jr.]

every election is about somebody, thats why even ACT-Wazalendo received a tally of 98,546 votes. The issue is with UKAWA supported who made and declare this election is war against CCM. Little do they know that CCM is not their problem but their representatives and personal determination (refer to Arusha Declaration);

Are you saying that representatives and personal determination were enough factors to win this election? Do you believe that the electoral results announced by NEC were genuine and accurate?

Trying peacefully through a ballot box to take out CCM amounts to a war? Is there anybody in this forum who think this statement makes sense?

Why do you want us to refer to a dead and failed declaration? A declaration whose founder declared that it was a big mistake!!

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

Are you saying that representatives and personal determination were enough factors to win this election? Do you believe that the electoral results announced by NEC were genuine and accurate?

Trying peacefully through a ballot box to take out CCM amounts to a war? Is there anybody in this forum who think this statement makes sense?

Why do you want us to refer to a dead and failed declaration? A declaration whose founder declared that it was a big mistake!!

i strongly believe, you need to have faith in the person who represents and when that person is doing their job "representing" you, you also have to be willing and have determination to succeed. You cant send someone to Chamwino or Magogoni St. and just sit at home waiting for miracles.

We have democracy, if you want to take CCM out of power you have to go through the ballot box. War wont resolve anything, if at all it will cause even more uncertainty to those who wants to use it as a means to oust CCM.

the entire declaration IS NOT a failure, some of its elements were not feasible, but majority was good stuff. The reason you want out is because of the those elements which are good but CCM didn't keep/follow.

 

[Sonko Jr.]

i strongly believe, you need to have faith in the person who represents and when that person is doing their job "representing" you, you also have to be willing and have determination to succeed. You cant send someone to Chamwino or Magogoni St. and just sit at home waiting for miracles.

We have democracy, if you want to take CCM out of power you have to go through the ballot box. War wont resolve anything, if at all it will cause even more uncertainty to those who wants to use it as a means to oust CCM.

the entire declaration IS NOT a failure, some of its elements were not feasible, but majority was good stuff. The reason you want out is because of the those elements which are good but CCM didn't keep/follow.

What about when that willingness and determination is strangled by the government? Personally I was not looking for a government that screw things up. Don't be supercilious, everyone who supported change knew that the government cannot do everything for them.

Nobody said a war is one of the options on the table for the opposition to root out CCM. That's your concept, there is a big difference betwen peaceful protests and wars. We have a failed democracy in this country.

People want CCM out not because they didn't follow some elements inside some declaration, that could be just a tip of the iceberg, I guess you need more schooling around that area.

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

duplicate post

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

What about when that willingness and determination is strangled by the government? Personally I was not looking for a government that screw things up. Don't be supercilious, everyone who supported change knew that the government cannot do everything for them.

when you write gov screwed things up, did you expect 100% trouble free election or .. ? I have never seen a trouble free elections, i have read history books about previous elections, any election has some shortcomings, lets just say if you have over 500 voters anywhere taking part in any type of election there will be some issues.

and the purpose of doing an election is to get a winner who can lead gov, we cant have two or three winners, there will be no point of doing elections. The winner is the party elected by MAJORITY, some opposition parties tend to think that winning party is the one elected by few people

Nobody said a war is one of the options on the table for the opposition to root out CCM. That's your concept, there is a big difference betwen peaceful protests and wars. We have a failed democracy in this country.

well we live in democracy, peaceful protests are welcomed, but your earlier quote didnt indicate that, or pointed that was the case hence my response.

People want CCM out not because they didn't follow some elements inside some declaration, that could be just a tip of the iceberg, I guess you need more schooling around that area.

I admit no one knows everything. I have read the Arusha Declaration, there were good principle for leaders to follow, CCM broke some of those elements by not speaking against things like racketeering to name few. In last election racketeering was mentioned as the main reason the public have lost faith in CCM.

as a party we decided to rescind Lowassa's party nomination because of racketeering allegations, this was done solely to try to win the public.

We have a long way to go but this is a good sign and I hope we continue to uphold Arusha Declaration values inside CCM and gov at large.

 

[Jack Daniel's]

I wish to share my views. I've gotta give you credit Adamson for how you crafted those statements, however I'm gonna point out significant differences:

when you write gov screwed things up, did you expect 100% trouble free election or .. ? I have never seen a trouble free elections, i have read history books about previous elections, any election has some shortcomings, lets just say if you have over 500 voters anywhere taking part in any type of election there will be some issues.

In accounting for votes there is a concept called 'Materiality concept'. Now, information is material if its omission or misstatement could influence legitimacy, reliability and completeness of the election results which subsequently affects the emotions of the voters. Ignoring materiality concept in vote tallying process is equal to ignoring the voice of the voters.....

and the purpose of doing an election is to get a winner who can lead gov, we cant have two or three winners, there will be no point of doing elections. The winner is the party elected by MAJORITY, some opposition parties tend to think that winning party is the one elected by few people

The purpose of an election is to provide a choice to people on who most of them think should lead them.....The winner is the candidate with majority votes, our constitution does not have provisions for a leader of the government to be elected from the party with majority seats.....My point is that, regardless of the election results in parliamentary levels, the presidential election results does not always coincide with the parliamentary....meaning that a party with less parliamentary seats can win a presidential election and form a government....

I admit no one knows everything. I have read the Arusha Declaration, there were good principle for leaders to follow, CCM broke some of those elements by not speaking against things like racketeering to name few. In last election racketeering was mentioned as the main reason the public have lost faith in CCM.

Corruption is not a problem which you can solve expediently by adopting a piece of declaration....you might be providing a wrong prescription to a patient and falsely hoping your sick friend will get well....when you are pursuing a wrong path in these critical areas, that exacerbates rather than mitigating the situation at hand....you can't just cut the branches and sit back and relax, you've got to get the roots of the causes...we are far from there....

as a party we decided to rescind Lowassa's party nomination because of racketeering allegations, this was done solely to try to win the public.

Now, if the question is why CDM put Lowassa on the frontline despite being axed by CCM? Remember that Lowassa was vetted thoroughly by CDM before they accepted him.....however that shift was subject to a litany of debates and that is now a non-issue. The election has now taken place, by all accounts wasn't free and fair and the fifth President has started his job...But we know that after the results have been announced by NEC there is no any legal avenue to forward claim(s) if any through a court process...that's how our justice system works and that is clearly stipulated in the constitution....

We have a long way to go but this is a good sign and I hope we continue to uphold Arusha Declaration values inside CCM and gov at large.

There is no doubt that things have changed from 1977 to today...there is more technological development...we have to make sure we have more controls in place because as we think about changing public servants attitude towards corruption, we need to be mindful that unless we address all the stakeholders in this issue we might be chasing a ghost....so, in addition to the traditional techniques you pointed out, we have to employ new and proven techniques.

 

[Sonko Jr.]

when you write gov screwed things up, did you expect 100% trouble free election or .. ? I have never seen a trouble free elections, i have read history books about previous elections, any election has some shortcomings, lets just say if you have over 500 voters anywhere taking part in any type of election there will be some issues......and the purpose of doing an election is to get a winner who can lead gov, we cant have two or three winners, there will be no point of doing elections. The winner is the party elected by MAJORITY, some opposition parties tend to think that winning party is the one elected by few people

There are two kinds of non-trouble free elections, man-made and natural. When thousands of illegal votes are transferred to polling stations by CCM, that's man made. When figures in polling stations vs those at NEC differ, that is man-made. When opposition's IT experts are arrested for tallying votes, that is man-made. When votes are rigged by NEC to favour certain candidates, that is man-made. When a heavy rainfall affects the voting process, that's natural. When a candidate with majority support is strangled, that's man made.

well we live in democracy, peaceful protests are welcomed, but your earlier quote didnt indicate that, or pointed that was the case hence my response.

Peaceful protests are not welcomed by policcm when that kind of protest is threatening their interests. Policcm will always create reasons to deny license for such protest. There issue is no longer whether it is peaceful or violent.

I admit no one knows everything. I have read the Arusha Declaration, there were good principle for leaders to follow, CCM broke some of those elements by not speaking against things like racketeering to name few. In last election racketeering was mentioned as the main reason the public have lost faith in CCM.

as a party we decided to rescind Lowassa's party nomination because of racketeering allegations, this was done solely to try to win the public.

We have a long way to go but this is a good sign and I hope we continue to uphold Arusha Declaration values inside CCM and gov at large.

CCM is too corrupt and Lowassa leaving the party doesn't change that fact. Nobody needs hope for a good sign, people need to see actions.

 

[thedon]

This election is about choosing a different path for our country, We, as the citizens of this country we love, have a choice to make about the path we are going to pursue as a country. There are two candidates on the ?spotlight? with two different paths for our country.
....................................................................................................................................
Attacking Lowassa is trying to make Tanzanians believe that this election is not about a new path for our country?..What the critics fail to understand is that this election is not about Lowassa, it is about us (the citizens)

I wish I had seen this thread much earlier because it speaks to a lot of the sentiments I felt towards this election and how vital it was in determining the direction we will take as a country. What I found to be very frustrating was how the majority of people simply refused to look beyond party lines when it came to making their decision. What was even worse was a media that chose to mire itself in the mud-slinging while completely ignoring other key issues that ought have been the forefront of the discussion. No one was out there calling for detailed policy plans and ideas that held any water. Nothing substantive about the economy, education, healthcare, or any other important issue facing the Tanzanian people. Promises were being thrown around but no one was explaining how they plan to fund their little giveaways.

In my opinion both candidates were lacking, but that is what we had to go with so no point in harping on about it. What it came down to was as you put it business as usual or business through change, and given the state of the country I really thought this was a no-brainer.

Track records and substance of character are all important in determining who we want to be our leaders, but that should have not been the only determining factor especially in our current system that is heavily dependent on an extremely powerful political establishment. This idea that JPM is somehow removed from this establishment and he will bring sweeping changes from within CCM that will carry us to the next generation is simply laughable. However well intentioned people might want to believe that JPM is, the fact remains that he has been and continues to be a part of a political system that has directly led to where we are today as a country. And if you believe that where we are today is a good place then may God grant you his good graces, because there is no hope for you.

I have never been a big fan of Lowassa and probably won't warm up to him significantly anytime soon, but I believe it was absolutely vital that he won the election, if only for what it would have meant in terms of redefining the political landscape that has for so long hindered this country from moving forward. A win for the opposition would have sent a loud and clear message to all "shape up or be gone!"

There is no need beat a dead horse, since the process has come and gone, but somehow we have to find a way to elevate the conversation in the future. If anything this election has just highlighted the absolutely pathetic state of the political discourse in this country.

People with objective minds are so rare in this country...Tanzanians are used to poverty, they have been led to believe that God is the one to blame for their impoverishment.....and that government has nothing to do with their welfare.....

The objectivity you speak of can be attained, but obviously an objective citizenry is not in the best interest of the current establishment. Whereas there might not be an outright conspiracy plot designed to keep people uninformed, you can be sure the establishment are not in any hurry to foster an environment where people make informed decisions come election time. This is where an independent and free media plays a key role in maintaining the balance, but good luck finding that anytime soon.

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

In accounting for votes there is a concept called 'Materiality concept'. Now, information is material if its omission or misstatement could influence legitimacy, reliability and completeness of the election results which subsequently affects the emotions of the voters. Ignoring materiality concept in vote tallying process is equal to ignoring the voice of the voters.....

are you implying there were some sort of missing information somewhere?

The purpose of an election is to provide a choice to people on who most of them think should lead them.....The winner is the candidate with majority votes, our constitution does not have provisions for a leader of the government to be elected from the party with majority seats.....My point is that, regardless of the election results in parliamentary levels, the presidential election results does not always coincide with the parliamentary....meaning that a party with less parliamentary seats can win a presidential election and form a government....

yes, i agree with you, i think there was a missing word from my statement, i should have written MAJORITY of VOTERS and not Parliamentary seats. Thanks for pointing.

Corruption is not a problem which you can solve expediently by adopting a piece of declaration....you might be providing a wrong prescription to a patient and falsely hoping your sick friend will get well....when you are pursuing a wrong path in these critical areas, that exacerbates rather than mitigating the situation at hand....you can't just cut the branches and sit back and relax, you've got to get the roots of the causes...we are far from there....

there are many ways of tackling corruption in government, and they spoilers are actually very few people but they cause endless damage to the rest of people in the country. We have to be honest with ourselves and admit first that this is problem is here to stay, all the government can do is to try and limit to what extension of its damage. Some of the reasons for continuity of corruption is development, as a country develop there will be an increase for corruption to thrive especially in sensitive sectors like health, taxation, trade etc.

So, i agree with you that, adaption declaration elements wont solve the problem but we cant discount the even small impact it will have in fight against corruption.

Now, if the question is why CDM put Lowassa on the frontline despite being axed by CCM? Remember that Lowassa was vetted thoroughly by CDM before they accepted him.....however that shift was subject to a litany of debates and that is now a non-issue. The election has now taken place, by all accounts wasn't free and fair and the fifth President has started his job...But we know that after the results have been announced by NEC there is no any legal avenue to forward claim(s) if any through a court process...that's how our justice system works and that is clearly stipulated in the constitution....

I wont speak for CHADEMA, but it is my honest opinion that, they went against their principles but accepting someone there were pointing as a master racketeer, they failed or diagreed on vetting process thats why Dr Slaa left the party, remember?

In regards to election, I dont agree with you when you say, these elections were "BY ALL ACCOUNTS" free and fair, remember there were 8 candidates, not everyone party will agree that by all account elections were not free and fair, I think pockets of people especially UKAWA followers will agree with your statement that election were not free and fair, AGAIN refer to my previous statements in democracy we are looking at the majority of people accepted election were free and fair and that will stand.

There is no doubt that things have changed from 1977 to today...there is more technological development...we have to make sure we have more controls in place because as we think about changing public servants attitude towards corruption, we need to be mindful that unless we address all the stakeholders in this issue we might be chasing a ghost....so, in addition to the traditional techniques you pointed out, we have to employ new and proven techniques.

well former President Mkapa started war against corruption, we now have agencies like PCCB who are now incharge, looking, investigate and prosecuting corrupt leaders. CCM have started their own war against corrupt leader within CCM. It is hope that normal citizens will stand up against corruption on streets. Everyone need to be involved in this war.

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

There are two kinds of non-trouble free elections, man-made and natural. When thousands of illegal votes are transferred to polling stations by CCM, that's man made. When figures in polling stations vs those at NEC differ, that is man-made. When opposition's IT experts are arrested for tallying votes, that is man-made. When votes are rigged by NEC to favour certain candidates, that is man-made. When a heavy rainfall affects the voting process, that's natural. When a candidate with majority support is strangled, that's man made.

I understand some of the things you have mentioned but those are recurring stories from oppositions, we have heard same stories since 1995 about CCM rigging elections. What some of the opposition followers fail to understand is, we live in democracy, there will never be trouble free elections, but that should be a reason to discount that a big part of election process was transparent enough for international community to accept. Our aim will always to hit that 100% free and fair elections but as human being we have shortcomings. If i ask you how many counterfeit votes were caught, what figure will you give me?

Peaceful protests are not welcomed by policcm when that kind of protest is threatening their interests. Policcm will always create reasons to deny license for such protest. There issue is no longer whether it is peaceful or violent.

peaceful rallies are welcome, the police are incharge and if they sense they wont be able to contain the rallies or if for any reason they think they cant give such permits then they will be expected to refuse permission hold these rallies. There is no point for police to act brave and allow political rallying knowing that they will turn violent. I trust police have enough intelligence prior to these kind of activities.

CCM is too corrupt and Lowassa leaving the party doesn't change that fact. Nobody needs hope for a good sign, people need to see actions.

Any political party has bad guys, even in opposition there are number of corrupt guys too. I have faith in President Magufuli I believe is a man we need for times like these hence why CCM nominated him for presidency.

 

[Jack Daniel's]

are you implying there were some sort of missing information somewhere?

The point I was trying to make was that when eligible voters are done voting, they've got to trust that their votes will be counted at least most of the time. The problem we have is that, over the course of several years that vital trust is gone because there have been material omissions and misstatements in the electoral results including this year's, making it difficult for people to trust that NEC's results are genuine and not made up. Opposition parties have raised material concerns about misinformation and violation on the side of NEC, but there is no question in anybody's mind including yours that we don't have an independent NEC.....

The last point I wanna make on this is that, I don't find any sense of blocking issues regarding justice in election process not to be settled in a justice system. That always gives NEC extensive powers to disregard the voice of the voters with impunity. Changing these obsolete laws is the first step towards promoting growth in democracy, I know that is not in CCM's interest but as long as it is in the interest of URT, there must be changes around those areas.

yes, i agree with you, i think there was a missing word from my statement, i should have written MAJORITY of VOTERS and not Parliamentary seats. Thanks for pointing

I appreciate that.....

there are many ways of tackling corruption in government, and they spoilers are actually very few people but they cause endless damage to the rest of people in the country. We have to be honest with ourselves and admit first that this is problem is here to stay, all the government can do is to try and limit to what extension of its damage. Some of the reasons for continuity of corruption is development, as a country develop there will be an increase for corruption to thrive especially in sensitive sectors like health, taxation, trade etc.

So, i agree with you that, adaption declaration elements wont solve the problem but we cant discount the even small impact it will have in fight against corruption

Let me deal with your specifics:

First, public servants involved in corruption are so many and they tend to override the system. It has evolved to becoming a way of life in the interactions between the people and the government. If someone could cut that number in half, there could be more progress....

Second, we can't say the problem is here to stay when we are not taking concrete actions to prevent and combat it. We have to set an example, people need to see that it amounts to crime and long jail terms. When we only limit the damage, then suddenly people realizes you know what? may be corruption is not that bad after all..makes it much more difficult to deal with it if people somehow think the government is only concerned with damage limitation..

Third, the theory that corruption is directly proportional to development is wrong. According to you, corruption is down during recession and high during recovery. In Tanzania corruption is high in all sectors regardless of the economic situation......

Lastly, investing time to revive elements of a declaration you keep on mentioning is going to have little or no effect on corruption levels in this country..we don't have the likes of Mwl. Nyerere today in our government to enforce it....

I wont speak for CHADEMA, but it is my honest opinion that, they went against their principles but accepting someone there were pointing as a master racketeer, they failed or diagreed on vetting process thats why Dr Slaa left the party, remember?

In regards to election, I dont agree with you when you say, these elections were "BY ALL ACCOUNTS" free and fair, remember there were 8 candidates, not everyone party will agree that by all account elections were not free and fair, I think pockets of people especially UKAWA followers will agree with your statement that election were not free and fair, AGAIN refer to my previous statements in democracy we are looking at the majority of people accepted election were free and fair and that will stand

In a democracy people agree to disagree, and they work through a process to reach a compromise. Now, you can't get 100% of what you want and I was disheartened that people like Dr. Slaa failed to wrap their brains around that simple concept.....

When I say election wasn't free and fair I didn't just say that without any proof, I witnessed myself a range of violations that rendered our election not credible...But you don't have to take my word for it, you can go through the reports of independent observers both local and international and get a glimpse....

By the way, you mentioned 8 candidates...I think you forgot that according to NEC, Magufuli and Lowassa garnered 98.43% of the votes while the rest (six) had 1.535% only..you can now understand which party can actually stand out and talk about credibility of this election....

well former President Mkapa started war against corruption, we now have agencies like PCCB who are now incharge, looking, investigate and prosecuting corrupt leaders. CCM have started their own war against corrupt leader within CCM. It is hope that normal citizens will stand up against corruption on streets. Everyone need to be involved in this war

The government is not serious about preventing and combating corruption..I have a series of PCCB and non-PCCB cases to prove that...when you have a system the breed and nurture these people and just go after the petty corruption cases to try to keep up the appearance, you can see how far we are from rooting the problem.....

Nevertheless, when the government gets in the hands of protecting these criminals behind its walls, where no law enforcement agency can reach them, where they are safe, then the system is creating a corrupt dynasty that tells people, guess what? there is nothing you can do about it......

 

[Sonko Jr.]

I understand some of the things you have mentioned but those are recurring stories from oppositions, we have heard same stories since 1995 about CCM rigging elections. What some of the opposition followers fail to understand is, we live in democracy, there will never be trouble free elections, but that should be a reason to discount that a big part of election process was transparent enough for international community to accept. Our aim will always to hit that 100% free and fair elections but as human being we have shortcomings. If i ask you how many counterfeit votes were caught, what figure will you give me?

Lowassa openly said he had 10M votes while he was given 6M which should have been Magufuli's and that Magufuli was added 2M votes which he were never his, that is more than recurring stories from 1995, that is more than a few troubles in election. That is called outright stealing.

peaceful rallies are welcome, the police are incharge and if they sense they wont be able to contain the rallies or if for any reason they think they cant give such permits then they will be expected to refuse permission hold these rallies. There is no point for police to act brave and allow political rallying knowing that they will turn violent. I trust police have enough intelligence prior to these kind of activities.

What I said is that you cannot expect peaceful rallies everyday, there is no country that has peaceful rallies everytime there is a protest. You cannot steal people's democratic rights and just get away with it through denying people the right to demonstrate, the freedom of assembly. Police intelligence stories are always used against the opposition, I think you should know better.

Any political party has bad guys, even in opposition there are number of corrupt guys too. I have faith in President Magufuli I believe is a man we need for times like these hence why CCM nominated him for presidency.

CCM is the factory producing corrupt people, so, it is either they shut off production or shift production to clean people. Kingunge told everybody that CCM didn't nominate Magufuli, that people who gathered in that hall were presented with 5 then 3 pocket names from the Chairman and his team. CCM is the same pig with different lipstick.

 

[Jack Daniel's]

thedon


Thank you for your kind words. I honestly think insights like yours help us understand our political environment better and keep us think about the interest of our country everyday......

I always tell my fellow Ukawa members that we need to pursue a constitutional reform even if we compromise a 3 tier government....actually I'm in favour of a single (1) government, not two and definately not three......

What we have witnessed in the aftermath of this election is a mere update of the existing system and not a newly installed system. So it is still business as usual (BAU)....I can't be too optimistic....

You also pointed out about keeping people informed...there are always propagandas in every election and it is incumbent upon the parties or candidates involved to clear them out during election campaign...so that people can make rational decisions about who to vote for.....However there are challenges sorrounding that including illiteracy levels, beliefs, access to information and so on......

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

The point I was trying to make was that when eligible voters are done voting, they've got to trust that their votes will be counted at least most of the time. The problem we have is that, over the course of several years that vital trust is gone because there have been material omissions and misstatements in the electoral results including this year's, making it difficult for people to trust that NEC's results are genuine and not made up. Opposition parties have raised material concerns about misinformation and violation on the side of NEC, but there is no question in anybody's mind including yours that we don't have an independent NEC.....

I agree with you NEC is not independent and that is government that is something to do with constitution, the good thing is, we have started making step towards changing/reform our constitution.


I think also, the issue of lack of trust on voters side, NEC moved to reassure people that elections will be transparent, I did somewhere that, NEC did 5 things which were crucial and important to raise trust.


First, THEY PRINTED OUT NAMES OF ALL registered voters. this list was put outside all voting centres, 7 days PRIOR to voting. that was first bold and clear move.

SECONDLY, all parties had representatives when the voting was in progress.

THIRD, all parties representatives and international observers were PRESENT during vote counting process.

FOURTH. total number of VOTES and allocations were DISPLAYED outside voting centre, for people to see who they voted for.

FIFTH, after the finish of announcing all vote count, International Observers and Party representatives were ONCE AGAIN to go into a special room and VERIFY all results before signing off winner's certificate (this was done at NEC HQs in Dar).

The last point I wanna make on this is that, I don't find any sense of blocking issues regarding justice in election process not to be settled in a justice system. That always gives NEC extensive powers to disregard the voice of the voters with impunity. Changing these obsolete laws is the first step towards promoting growth in democracy, I know that is not in CCM's interest but as long as it is in the interest of URT, there must be changes around those areas.

well, bodies like NEC need to be protected and given enough powers to look after these issue, it will be sad to see NEC being interfered with police, courts, etc. And the fact that you want NEC to be more independent, that means only one thing, MORE POWER to NEC.

So, i agree with you that, adaption declaration elements wont solve the problem but we cant discount the even small impact it will have in fight against corruption
Let me deal with your specifics:


First, public servants involved in corruption are so many and they tend to override the system. It has evolved to becoming a way of life in the interactions between the people and the government. If someone could cut that number in half, there could be more progress....

i disagree with your first point, as i mentioned earlier, corrupt leader in FACT and FIGURES are very few, the damage however is very big. In CCM for example, CCM has 8.4 million members but the number of people who have been alleged to be involved in corruption they are not more 20. so its a small percentage of people who spoil for everyone in the party. In society at large as well, it is well known that, still its a small number of people but they have huge impact.

Second, we can't say the problem is here to stay when we are not taking concrete actions to prevent and combat it. We have to set an example, people need to see that it amounts to crime and long jail terms. When we only limit the damage, then suddenly people realizes you know what? may be corruption is not that bad after all..makes it much more difficult to deal with it if people somehow think the government is only concerned with damage limitation..

I am yet to see a society or community were there is no corruption, the problem is here because corruption is interpreted in different terms in different societies. A small favour can be regarded as corruption even in Holy community. So, i believe the best we could do is to set examples yes, but a corrupt free society is not attainable.

Third, the theory that corruption is directly proportional to development is wrong. According to you, corruption is down during recession and high during recovery. In Tanzania corruption is high in all sectors regardless of the economic situation......

Corruption is corruption, what I was referring to what the 'scale' of corruption. Even there is a gov tender worth 100 mil the bribe could be the same percentage as 1 mil tender, but the scale is different, you have large scale corruption on 100 mil deal compare to 1 mil albeit it is still corruption. And penalties reflects these scale at the moment.

Lastly, investing time to revive elements of a declaration you keep on mentioning is going to have little or no effect on corruption levels in this country..we don't have the likes of Mwl. Nyerere today in our government to enforce it....

it's true Mwalimu is no longer with us, but I know few people in government who have the same values and spirit of Mwalimu. At present, inside CCM we have some of the AD elements for our members to follow and keep, In government civil servants also have values they need to abide by and some of these values they have to use to conduct business in government were drawn from AD 1977. In short AD elements were not figured out from out of space, these were simple to follow value for any society to strive well, these were humanity values.

In a democracy people agree to disagree, and they work through a process to reach a compromise. Now, you can't get 100% of what you want and I was disheartened that people like Dr. Slaa failed to wrap their brains around that simple concept.....

Well, I believe Dr. Slaa followed his instinct, I think he saw an outcome which many inside his old party either refused to accept or were just blinded by the events during election campaign. I understand how he thought it was pointless to fight a loosing war, and for him to step aside was what any person with integrity will do.

When I say election wasn't free and fair I didn't just say that without any proof, I witnessed myself a range of violations that rendered our election not credible...But you don't have to take my word for it, you can go through the reports of independent observers both local and international and get a glimpse....

I have heard of several incidents but I can assure you that those events were expected, no one plans or anticipate irregularities but they have to be expected. Whats important is that, those incidents were fewer compare to the majority of election process. Again, in democracy you look for majority, local and international observers testified that the elections were "LARGELY" free and fair. It is the balance, we have largely free and fair elections then the vote counts. (if elections were rendered largely NOT free and fair then that would amount to a problem).

By the way, you mentioned 8 candidates...I think you forgot that according to NEC, Magufuli and Lowassa garnered 98.43% of the votes while the rest (six) had 1.535% only..you can now understand which party can actually stand out and talk about credibility of this election....

ok, you point there, EL is problem in position to be heard compare to others but remember in democracy is all about head count, if 7 out 8 people say they were satisfied with elections they win an argument.

The government is not serious about preventing and combating corruption..I have a series of PCCB and non-PCCB cases to prove that...when you have a system the breed and nurture these people and just go after the petty corruption cases to try to keep up the appearance, you can see how far we are from rooting the problem.....

Nevertheless, when the government gets in the hands of protecting these criminals behind its walls, where no law enforcement agency can reach them, where they are safe, then the system is creating a corrupt dynasty that tells people, guess what? there is nothing you can do about it......[/QUOTE]


an answer to PCCB will be constitution reform, as it stands the President appoints PCCB chair and the board, you can see that is a problem It will be hard to go after someone who appointed you to the job. PCCB has to be independent like NEC to avoid impartiality, this can only be done through constitution reform.

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

Lowassa openly said he had 10M votes while he was given 6M which should have been Magufuli's and that Magufuli was added 2M votes which he were never his, that is more than recurring stories from 1995, that is more than a few troubles in election. That is called outright stealing.

well, anyone can claim they had 10M votes, have you seen evidence that he had 10M votes? It will be very naive to accuse of anyone of stealing votes if you dont have hard evidence that EL garnered 10M votes. I don't have any reason to believe his claim. Why do you believe him?

What I said is that you cannot expect peaceful rallies everyday, there is no country that has peaceful rallies everytime there is a protest. You cannot steal people's democratic rights and just get away with it through denying people the right to demonstrate, the freedom of assembly. Police intelligence stories are always used against the opposition, I think you should know better.

I dont think police will forever refuse opposite their right to protest but "sometime" they will refuse permission to do so, and they will do with explanations. Do you remember how many times opposition rallied between 2010 and 2015? over 10, 20, 30? perhaps?

CCM is the factory producing corrupt people, so, it is either they shut off production or shift production to clean people. Kingunge told everybody that CCM didn't nominate Magufuli, that people who gathered in that hall were presented with 5 then 3 pocket names from the Chairman and his team. CCM is the same pig with different lipstick.

haha no CCM is a political party and in any successful political party it is expected to have crooks and shady figures, but to say its a factory manufacturing corrupt people, no, its what opposition try to believe. There is a alot of exaggeration going on in opposition parties, so its important to sieve what is a fact from rumour.

JPM was nominated by CCM central committee and general meeting to run for presidency, Kingunge didnt have his man nominated that is why he was not happy but the rest of CCM family accepted JPM's nomination. Sometimes you have to override some of the proceedings to ensure better outcome and I believe is what happened. What mattered the most in the end is we had a RIGHT MAN.

 

[Jack Daniel's]

I agree with you NEC is not independent and that is government that is something to do with constitution, the good thing is, we have started making step towards changing/reform our constitution.
I think also, the issue of lack of trust on voters side, NEC moved to reassure people that elections will be transparent, I did somewhere that, NEC did 5 things which were crucial and important to raise trust.
First, THEY PRINTED OUT NAMES OF ALL registered voters. this list was put outside all voting centres, 7 days PRIOR to voting. that was first bold and clear move.
SECONDLY, all parties had representatives when the voting was in progress.
THIRD, all parties representatives and international observers were PRESENT during vote counting process.
FOURTH. total number of VOTES and allocations were DISPLAYED outside voting centre, for people to see who they voted for.
FIFTH, after the finish of announcing all vote count, International Observers and Party representatives were ONCE AGAIN to go into a special room and VERIFY all results before signing off winner's certificate (this was done at NEC HQs in Dar)

All these cannot explain why we have material omissions and misstatements in the NEC's results both at parliamentary and presidential levels...why NEC announced numbers that doesn't add up, why they have totals exceeding 100% and so forth...

All those steps cannot give answers to raids and confiscation of materials of CDM's IT experts dealing with the tallying process...and/or subsequent similar activity to the independent observers such as the LHRC officials...

All these cannot shed some light on why ZEC's Chairman stopped announcing the results in Zanzibar contrary to the provisions of various sections of the Electoral Acts...

Independent observers were not allowed access to critical rooms during the tallying process...I encouraged you to go through EU observer's report to understand what I'm talking about....

well, bodies like NEC need to be protected and given enough powers to look after these issue, it will be sad to see NEC being interfered with police, courts, etc. And the fact that you want NEC to be more independent, that means only one thing, MORE POWER to NEC

More powers to make independent rather than conditional decisions...and that's good for the voters and it is definitely good ingredient for democratic growth....the only sense the status quo is making is that we have a wing of CCM conducting an election for us....

When NEC is sure it has done justice to every candidate, it shouldn't fear or think it is an interference to clear stuffs with disgruntled candidates through a court process....Many democratic countries have such provisions....

i disagree with your first point, as i mentioned earlier, corrupt leader in FACT and FIGURES are very few, the damage however is very big. In CCM for example, CCM has 8.4 million members but the number of people who have been alleged to be involved in corruption they are not more 20. so its a small percentage of people who spoil for everyone in the party. In society at large as well, it is well known that, still its a small number of people but they have huge impact

I'm surprised you are talking of 20! We have thousands of corrupt people in the government, get your facts straight..., I'm not just talking about those big scandals...the government is losing billions if not trillions in a lot more places, in every sector, every Ministry, Department and Local government agency.....

I am yet to see a society or community were there is no corruption, the problem is here because corruption is interpreted in different terms in different societies. A small favour can be regarded as corruption even in Holy community. So, i believe the best we could do is to set examples yes, but a corrupt free society is not attainable

We need to see action and not just comfortable inaction. There are far too many risks and loses for doing little or nothing.....

Corruption is corruption, what I was referring to what the 'scale' of corruption. Even there is a gov tender worth 100 mil the bribe could be the same percentage as 1 mil tender, but the scale is different, you have large scale corruption on 100 mil deal compare to 1 mil albeit it is still corruption. And penalties reflects these scale at the moment

The point was that all corruptions, small scale and large scale are independent to an economic development....which is not true....

it's true Mwalimu is no longer with us, but I know few people in government who have the same values and spirit of Mwalimu. At present, inside CCM we have some of the AD elements for our members to follow and keep, In government civil servants also have values they need to abide by and some of these values they have to use to conduct business in government were drawn from AD 1977. In short AD elements were not figured out from out of space, these were simple to follow value for any society to strive well, these were humanity values

Name me a few of the few people with the values and spirit of Mwalimu....

Well, I believe Dr. Slaa followed his instinct, I think he saw an outcome which many inside his old party either refused to accept or were just blinded by the events during election campaign. I understand how he thought it was pointless to fight a loosing war, and for him to step aside was what any person with integrity will do

I don't have anything new to say about Dr. Slaa except that he is off the politics and that was his choice...

I have heard of several incidents but I can assure you that those events were expected, no one plans or anticipate irregularities but they have to be expected. Whats important is that, those incidents were fewer compare to the majority of election process. Again, in democracy you look for majority, local and international observers testified that the elections were "LARGELY" free and fair. It is the balance, we have largely free and fair elections then the vote counts. (if elections were rendered largely NOT free and fair then that would amount to a problem)

The oppositions did point out material concerns that have been ignored. What do you think local observers like LHRC will say about this election?

ok, you point there, EL is problem in position to be heard compare to others but remember in democracy is all about head count, if 7 out 8 people say they were satisfied with elections they win an argument

Even if all of them disagree with NEC's results is there any legal avenue to settle their claim(s)?

an answer to PCCB will be constitution reform, as it stands the President appoints PCCB chair and the board, you can see that is a problem It will be hard to go after someone who appointed you to the job. PCCB has to be independent like NEC to avoid impartiality, this can only be done through constitution reform.

That's a great conclusion....

 

[Sonko Jr.]

well, anyone can claim they had 10M votes, have you seen evidence that he had 10M votes? It will be very naive to accuse of anyone of stealing votes if you dont have hard evidence that EL garnered 10M votes. I don't have any reason to believe his claim. Why do you believe him?

Do you have any evidence that Magufuli received 8M votes and Lowassa 6M??, don't tell me you heard or got that from NECCM!

I dont think police will forever refuse opposite their right to protest but "sometime" they will refuse permission to do so, and they will do with explanations. Do you remember how many times opposition rallied between 2010 and 2015? over 10, 20, 30? perhaps?

You don't think because you don't know. There is a lot you don't know about POLICCM.

haha no CCM is a political party and in any successful political party it is expected to have crooks and shady figures, but to say its a factory manufacturing corrupt people, no, its what opposition try to believe. There is a alot of exaggeration going on in opposition parties, so its important to sieve what is a fact from rumour.

JPM was nominated by CCM central committee and general meeting to run for presidency, Kingunge didnt have his man nominated that is why he was not happy but the rest of CCM family accepted JPM's nomination. Sometimes you have to override some of the proceedings to ensure better outcome and I believe is what happened. What mattered the most in the end is we had a RIGHT MAN.

Magufuli and Kinana both admitted that CCM has many corrupt people, I don't understand why you, a nobody in CCM want to refute that.

"override some of the proceedings to ensure better outcome" is equal to "override some of the proceedings to ensure we have a candidate that serves our interests". That is the RIGHT MAN.

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

All these cannot explain why we have material omissions and misstatements in the NEC's results both at parliamentary and presidential levels...why NEC announced numbers that doesn't add up, why they have totals exceeding 100% and so forth...

I think you were looking at either ITV or UKAWA numbers, can you produce evidence here? Note: show me NEC official printed form with percentages exceeding 100%

All those steps cannot give answers to raids and confiscation of materials of CDM's IT experts dealing with the tallying process...and/or subsequent similar activity to the independent observers such as the LHRC officials...

All these cannot shed some light on why ZEC's Chairman stopped announcing the results in Zanzibar contrary to the provisions of various sections of the Electoral Acts...

my list was directed at transparency.

Police raided those office for a different reason, as it stands only NEC are allowed to count votes, thats what our Election ACT states, anyone else doing the counting is reliable for arrest, fine and imprisonment. Opposition tend to use these incidents to point to their grieving but the law is there to be kept, If you dont keep the law then you will be arrested. Its only through constitution reform thats when they will be allowed to do their own counting.

Independent observers were not allowed access to critical rooms during the tallying process...I encouraged you to go through EU observer's report to understand what I'm talking about....

More powers to make independent rather than conditional decisions...and that's good for the voters and it is definitely good ingredient for democratic growth....the only sense the status quo is making is that we have a wing of CCM conducting an election for us....

When NEC is sure it has done justice to every candidate, it shouldn't fear or think it is an interference to clear stuffs with disgruntled candidates through a court process....Many democratic countries have such provisions....

i have drawn my own conclusions, from reports i have read, i need to make an emphasis that, in democratic states, the simple rule is majority, when majority of people say elections were largely free and fair, that is all matters, obviously we acknowledge there were few incidents but that is to be expected.

I also, disagree that CCM decided the elections, we had observers from all the world, if there were any major breaches or irregulaties like one party deciding entire election outcome then they would have mentioned it. All was reported were few incidents.

I'm surprised you are talking of 20! We have thousands of corrupt people in the government, get your facts straight..., I'm not just talking about those big scandals...the government is losing billions if not trillions in a lot more places, in every sector, every Ministry, Department and Local government agency.....

Even if we take your number and say we have 2,000 corrupt figure it is still far small figure compare to millions of government workers across the country. it is still a small amount compare to genuine good people who work daily to make good contribution to the country.

We need to see action and not just comfortable inaction. There are far too many risks and loses for doing little or nothing.....

The point was that all corruptions, small scale and large scale are independent to an economic development....which is not true....

again, i said the scale of corruption is directly proportional to economic development, the bribes taken in 1990s arent the same as bribes taken in 2010s, agree?

Also, like many ordinary citizens, they dont understand how difficult is to prosecute people who are accused of bribe and corruption, It costs more to run these cases on average than the amount which was actually bribed or taken/received.

So as easy as it may sound to someone to point at bribe allegation, in reality to prosecute someone is not something as straight forward, and if gov doesnt get it right they might end up losing more money through fine because of damages.

Name me a few of the few people with the values and spirit of Mwalimu....

some people like Pres. Ali Mwinyi, Warioba, Wassira, Msekwa, Msuya etc these people have never been linked to any misappropriation of gov offices or public funds etc.

I don't have anything new to say about Dr. Slaa except that he is off the politics and that was his choice...

oll kollekt.

The oppositions did point out material concerns that have been ignored. What do you think local observers like LHRC will say about this election?

Even if all of them disagree with NEC's results is there any legal avenue to settle their claim(s)?

majority of local observers said the elections were largely free and fair. LHRC were biased from start with their press statements which clearly showed they were siding with UKAWA supporters, if you remember their offices were raided because there were illegal counting taking place. For those reason, I dont think they will have anything positive to say.

 

[iArmaniAdamson]

Do you have any evidence that Magufuli received 8M votes and Lowassa 6M??, don't tell me you heard or got that from NECCM!

well we have one Election body which is responsible of administering, counting and announcing votes. I can give their link to check that Pres. Magufuli received 8M votes. what can you point me at for your evidence?

You don't think because you don't know. There is a lot you don't know about POLICCM.

the question was pointed at you, you were meant to answer it, not me. do you remember how many times UKAWA rallied between 2010 and 2015? when you get the number, sit down and think again, because oppositions tend to be blinded with their belief that the government is biased against them, they even go as far as point they have NEVER been allowed to rally.

Magufuli and Kinana both admitted that CCM has many corrupt people, I don't understand why you, a nobody in CCM want to refute that.

I never refuse that allegation, read all my posts, I have always openly admitted that in CCM there are crooks. One of them was E Lowassa, your presidential candidate.

"override some of the proceedings to ensure better outcome" is equal to "override some of the proceedings to ensure we have a candidate that serves our interests". That is the RIGHT MAN.

well, what i meant by that statement is, if it is necessarly, we will ensure we override our own proceedings and get rid of popular but corrupt candidates like E Lowassa in order to nominate upright and non corrupt candidates like JPM.

 

[Jack Daniel's]

I'm gonna have to narrow down your claims to something meaningful because some of these things we have gone through already with other guys in this thread or other threads:

I think you were looking at either ITV or UKAWA numbers, can you produce evidence here? Note: show me NEC official printed form with percentages exceeding 100%
my list was directed at transparency.
Police raided those office for a different reason, as it stands only NEC are allowed to count votes, thats what our Election ACT states, anyone else doing the counting is reliable for arrest, fine and imprisonment. Opposition tend to use these incidents to point to their grieving but the law is there to be kept, If you dont keep the law then you will be arrested. Its only through constitution reform thats when they will be allowed to do their own counting

Take a look at the following highlights:

RED: On this link look at total valid votes (15,193,862=97.46%)....and Magufuli and Lowassa's total votes and do yourself some maths...
https://www.jamiiforums.com/uchaguz...ec-official-results-uchaguzi-mkuu-2015-a.html


BLUE: What reason? Do you have any evidence to back up your reason?....Why are they not enjoying their constitutional right to bail?.......

LIME: What happens after counting is that all the results are pinned outside (implied: provided the counting was done inside) for everyone to see and to add for themselves....

VOIOLET: Those people were not counting votes cast, they were counting and adding electoral results.....Which section and which provision of that Act denies people from counting and adding votes from various polling stations?...

TURQUOISE: Which law? How was the opposition going contrary to the provisions of that law? elaborate......

GOLD: Arrest happens even for those who keep the law.....The law enforcement's job is to arrest and interrogate people, at the time of arrest they can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that those people they are arresting have broken (haven't kept) the law.......

ORANGE: You need to appreciate the difference between 'counting' and 'adding' or 'tallying' votes which the accused were involved in......counting happens inside the polling stations, the accused were not inside or in the proximity of those stations.....

i have drawn my own conclusions, from reports i have read, i need to make an emphasis that, in democratic states, the simple rule is majority, when majority of people say elections were largely free and fair, that is all matters, obviously we acknowledge there were few incidents but that is to be expected

I understand well your 'majority' concept....Now, if you insist that Tanzania is a typical democratic state, then (a)why is/are the claims(s) or allegation(s) of the candidates dissatisfied with presidential results not heard in the court of law?...(b)Does it mean NEC is so perfect in handling presidential elections?....following on your answers in (a) and (b), (c) why are disputes in electoral results at lower levels such as parliamentary allowed to be settled through a justice system?

I also, disagree that CCM decided the elections, we had observers from all the world, if there were any major breaches or irregulaties like one party deciding entire election outcome then they would have mentioned it. All was reported were few incidents

If CCM's chairman is appointing NEC's chairman, secretary and other top officials....CCM as a party is participating in the election...I will argue that CCM is deciding the elections for the voters...

Even if we take your number and say we have 2,000 corrupt figure it is still far small figure compare to millions of government workers across the country. it is still a small amount compare to genuine good people who work daily to make good contribution to the country

What is your basis of assuming 2000 corrupt persons in the government of Tanzania?

again, i said the scale of corruption is directly proportional to economic development, the bribes taken in 1990s arent the same as bribes taken in 2010s, agree?

According to you, If anybody says that corruption levels in Malaysia during the 1990's were higher than corruption levels in the same country in 2015, considering the fact that Malaysian economy has grown between 1990 and 2015, that person is lying?

Also, like many ordinary citizens, they dont understand how difficult is to prosecute people who are accused of bribe and corruption, It costs more to run these cases on average than the amount which was actually bribed or taken/received. So as easy as it may sound to someone to point at bribe allegation, in reality to prosecute someone is not something as straight forward, and if gov doesnt get it right they might end up losing more money through fine because of damages

According to your statement, (1)you think that the prosecutor will jump into every corruption case without considering the weight of his/her evidence?...regardless of your answer in (1)..(2)Don't you think it is necessary to recruit smart advocates who can win a lot of graft cases and help us get back our lost revenues?...regardless of your answers in (1) and (2)....(3) Should we not pursue corruption cases because there are cost involved?

some people like Pres. Ali Mwinyi, Warioba, Wassira, Msekwa, Msuya etc these people have never been linked to any misappropriation of gov offices or public funds etc

Can Magufuli sign new employment contracts with these people to work in his administration?

majority of local observers said the elections were largely free and fair. LHRC were biased from start with their press statements which clearly showed they were siding with UKAWA supporters, if you remember their offices were raided because there were illegal counting taking place. For those reason, I dont think they will have anything positive to say.

RED: May be I don't know, but was there any eligible voter who cast his ballot at the LHRC 'polling station'?...following your answer,...If anybody says that, those guys were not arrested for 'illegal counting of votes', that person is not telling the truth?....

BLUE: Were you looking for positive feedbacks only?...such that reports not fulfilling your interests were incorrect?....