Uraia Pacha Tanzania: Siasa ya Bernard Membe na hatma yake

[Ubumuntu]

I was showing recent trend of dual nationality across the world.

Good. However, the trend does not necessarily mean Tanzania would also kick in.
It is not practical to bring such as trend as a base for your argument.
Beacuase, there are a lot of 'trends' in the world that haven't been followed by Tanzania!! They are known, I don't need to go into details.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Sasa kama hakuna ubaya kwa nini hutaki watu wapate huo uraia pacha?

Kwa sababu kama kufaidi kwa mtu mmoja mmoja, hata sasa hivi bila ya kuwa na duala citizenship unaweza faidi.

Hakuna nchi ya kujivunia? Unamaanisha nini hasa?

Naamisha hakuna nchi za Afrika zilizokubali dual citizenship ambazo zimebadilika kimaendeleo kwa kiasi kikubwa cha kufanya nchi kama Tanzania itake nayo iige utaratibu huo. Nimewaambia Nigeria imeanza utaratibu huo toka kitambo, lakini hadi sasa bado inaitwa nchi inayoendelea. Sasa argument yenu ya kusema duala citizenship itaboost international trade and the whole economy inakuwa haina mashiko. Nijifunze kutoka wapi?

Vinginevyo, nipe mifano!!

Huu sasa ni upofu wa makusudi tu. Hivi wewe huoni kwamba mimi nikifaidika na mimi huyu huyu nikimsaidia ndugu yangu aondokane na ufukara huoni kwamba nchi itakuwa imepungukiwa walau na fukara mmoja? Halafu kwani ni lazima kila ninachofaidika nacho mimi kama mtu binafsi basi na nchi nzima nayo lazima ifaidike nacho? Hatuko kwenye zama za ujamaa tena ndugu Nzi. You seem to be stuck in a time warp! But this is the 21st century brother-man. You need to get with the changing times or else.

Vyema. Ebu nipe mifano ya kupunguka kwa fukara hao katika nchi yoyote ya Afrika, kuliko pelekea nchi husika kuwa siyo ya mafukara na kuwa nchi iliyoendelea.

Kama ndivyo, bado unaweza faidika bila ya kulilia dual citizenship. Mbona sasa mnasema mnafaidika kwa kufanya kazi huko majuu? Nani amesema hataki mfaidike; faidikeni tu, ila siyo kuleta hoja za kutaka muwe na uraia nchi mbili.

Yaani mkija na hiyo hoja ndugu zako, hakika hoja yenu haitokubalika. Hatuwezi kuwa taifa la bendera fuata upepo. Lazima katika kuamua tuamue kwa mantiki na bases ambazo tunaona zitakuwa za msingi.

Nenda Naijeria ukaulize.

Sina haja ya kwenda. Kila kitu kinafahamika, kwamba Nigeria bado ni nchi maskini.
Nyiye wenye kutetea hoja, ndiyo mlete mifano ya kuonyesha ni kiasi gani duala citizenship imebadilisha hali za kiuchumi za nchi za kiafrika zilizo katika utaratibu huo.

Ndiyo maana nimesema, kwa hoja zenu hafifu, hadi vilaza wa pale UDSM waliwapiga chini vibaya mno mnaodai dual citizenship, chini ya mpiga debe wenu Membe.

Nimewaambia katika kujenga hoja yenu, basi ebu fanyeni baseline study, katika kujua kuwa watanzania wangapi mataifa ya nje?; wangapi wanataka dual citizenship?; kazi na ujuzi wao ni upi?; kiasi cha pesa waliyo inject katika pato la taifa, kwa mtu mmoja na hata kwa taifa kiujumla?; kama kuna wenye investment, ni zipi? Faida za hizo investment ni zipi?
Hilo litawasaidia katika kujenga hoja ya nini kitapatikana kwa mtu mmoja na taifa kiujumla kama watanzania hao watakuwa na fursa ya kupata uraia wa nchi zenye maendeleo makubwa n.k.

Kwa mwanzo huo mnaweza mkaja na hoja yenye kuconvince watunga sheria; lakini mkitumia emotions, hapa hamtapata kitu bandugu.

Wewe tayari ushakubali kuwa hakuna ubaya kwa mtu mmoja mmoja kufaidika :becky:. Na sijui kwa nini wewe unaangalia upande wa uchumi tu kana kwamba uchumi ndiyo kila kitu.

Wapi nimesema nimekubali?! Kusema hakuna ubaya wa mtu mmoja mmoja kufaidi, ndiyo kukubali huko?!??? :becky:

Naangalia upande wa uchumi, kwa sababu ndiyo msingi mkuu wa kutaka uraia wa nchi mbili. Uraia wa nchi mbili unatokana na mahitaji ya watu kuexplore na kutumia fursa za kiuchumi zinazopatikana katika nchi ambayo mtu anataka kuwa na uraia wake.

Na ndiyo msingi wa kuweza kujenga ushawishi kwa watunga sera. Lakini mkienda na stori zenu za mtu mmoja mmoja kufaidi, hakika mtaambiwa endeleeni kufaidi na fursa zilizoko katika nyie kuishi na kufanya kazi majuu. Watunga sera na sheria wanataka kuona maslahi yaliyo wazi kwa taifa kutokana na utaratibu huo. Wanataka kuona kuruhusu kwa utaratibu huo kutakuza pato la taifa kwa asilimia kadhaa (kutokana na mifano kutoka nchi zilizo na utaratibu huo). Wanataka kuona utaratibu huo utaleta ongezeko la biashara ya kimataifa (pia mifano (practical examples) ni muhimu, siyo theories zenu za ajabu ajabu). Wanataka kuona utaratibu huo utapelekea ongezeko la viwanda; ongezeko la ujuzi kutoka kwa watanzania wenye ujuzi wa hali ya juu kutoka nchi zingine. N.K.

Amini haya ninayokwambia. Ukitaka acha.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Wewe unafikiri qualification nini? Mana ushaipaza sana kabla hata ya kuisikia.

Mtu anaweza kutakiwa kuongea na kuandika Kiswahili tu, aende Homeland Security kuangalia masuala ya terrorism, akawa a natural born speaker ambaye Kiswahili ni lugha yake, tayari qualification hiyo, tatizo mkoba tu, anaambiwa "kaa pembeni".

Anakwenda Mkenya Kiswahili chake cha manati, lakini kwa sababu ana mkoba anaambiwa pita.

Unaona kukataa dual kunavyoleta upuuzi?

Sasa kwa qualification hiyo ndiyo unataka mtu kama huyo awe na uraia wa nchi mbili?
Mpiga debe wenu Membe uwa anataja watu wenye qualifications za kufa mtu kama ndiyo msingi wa hoja. Anasema kuna watanzania wanafanya kazi NASA na Silicon Valley, wenye ujuzi wa hatari ambao taifa linaweza kufaidika na ujuzi huo.

Sasa kama ujuzi wenyewe ni wa kuongea kiswahili ili upate kazi Wizara ya Mambo ya Ndani, basi sioni haja ya kuendelea na mjadala. Ni bora uraia wa nchi mbili uruhusiwe tu. Na kuanzia sasa nitapigania uruhusiwe, ili tuongeze wataalamu wa kiswahili hapa Tanzania.

 

[MkamaP]

Mfano husioendana na kitu unachokiongelea nao ni mfano? Huo ni mfano mfu!!

Huwezi kutoa mfano kuhusu uraia wa nchi mbili kwa kusema "kwa mfano, kama mnavyoweza kujiwekea kwamba mkenya haruhusiwi kupata uraia wa tanzania bila kuukana uraia wake wa kenya na kuikabidhi passport".

Sasa kama mfano wenyewe ndiyo huo, inaonyesha hata unachokipigania hukuelewi na wala hukifahamu!!

Kama nchi za Ulaya ndiyo zimejiwekea sheria kama huo mfano wako, huo uraia wa nchi mbili unaingiaje kama sheria inamtaka mtu kuukana uraia mmoja ili aruhusiwe kuwa raia wa nchi nyingine?!?!?

You have been told to educate yourself and thus got updated. Keep nagging all the way around. Hata pamoja na kuwekea links hapo juu kuona nchi zinavyotoa dual bado tu. mhhh, kwanza umelizika na karibu nchi zote ulaya zinaruhusu dual?

 

[Kiranga]

Sasa kwa qualification hiyo ndiyo unataka mtu kama huyo awe na uraia wa nchi mbili?
Mpiga debe wenu Membe uwa anataja watu wenye qualifications za kufa mtu kama ndiyo msingi wa hoja. Anasema kuna watanzania wanafanya kazi NASA na Silicon Valley, wenye ujuzi wa hatari ambao taifa linaweza kufaidika na ujuzi huo.

Sasa kama ujuzi wenyewe ni wa kuongea kiswahili ili upate kazi Wizara ya Mambo ya Ndani, basi sioni haja ya kuendelea na mjadala. Ni bora uraia wa nchi mbili uruhusiwe tu. Na kuanzia sasa nitapigania uruhusiwe, ili tuongeze wataalamu wa kiswahili hapa Tanzania.

Qualification hiyo inaweza kuwa ya kufa mtu.

Ikiunganishwa na uraia, inaweza kusababisha mtu kuwa na kazi, au mtu kukosa kazi Unyamwezini (USA)

Na mtu kuweza au kushindwa kutuma hela Unyamwezini (Tabora)

Na shangazi akaweza au akashindwa kufanyiwa ile medical procedure aliyokuwa anaihitaji sana lakini hana funds.

Qualification hiyo unayoidharau, inaweza kuwa "ya kufa mtu" quite literally, kwa sababu shangazi anaweza kufa kwa kukosa funds kwa sababu kijana kashindwa kutuma hela nyumbani, kwa sababu hana kazi, na hana kazi kwa sababu qualification ya uraia kakosa kwa sababu Tanzania hairuhusu dual citizenship.

Ya kufa mtu, quite literally.

 

[EMT]

Good. However, the trend does not necessarily mean Tanzania would also kick in.
It is not practical to bring such as trend as a base for your argument.
Beacuase, there are a lot of 'trends' in the world that haven't been followed by Tanzania!! They are known, I don't need to go into details.

Hahahahahaah! Yaani kwenye post yangu nzima ume-pick one line kuijengea hoja? Come on! You're better than this Mkuu.

The issue is not whether or not Tanzania should follow the trend. Huwezi ukafuata trend bila kujua sababu za kuwepo kwa hiyo trend in the first place. Otherwise, you will be like jumping in a wagon without knowing inapokwenda.

So, ingekuwa bora zaidi kama ungeuliza kwanza kwa nini kuna hiyo trend? Baada ya kujua sababu za kuwepo kwa hiyo trend, ndipo ungeuliza whether or not Tanzania should jump in the wagon. Hapo then tungezifanyia analysis hizo sababu in the context of the Tanzanian environment.

Kwa hiyo, the first question is: Kwa nini hivi karibuni nchi nyingi zimebadilisha sheria zao na kuruhusu dual nationality?

Lakini hata kabla ya kuuliza hilo swali itabidi kwanza kujua the purpose of dual citizenship its advantages and disadvantages, etc.

So, it is not about knowing the trends, but the causes of those trends.

 

[Ubumuntu]

You have been told to educate yourself and thus got updated. Keep nagging all the way around. Hata pamoja na kuwekea links hapo juu kuona nchi zinavyotoa dual bado tu.

Mbona unaanza kulialia chifu?!?
Mimi nilipenda kupata ufafanuzi wa hali inavyoendelea huko majuu. Unajua kutegemea kwangu taarifa za habari za ITV kuna shida wakati mwingine, hivyo mpaka ITV watangaze nami napata habari.

Ila mimi niliegemea kwenye mfano wako wa Kenya na Tanzania. Na nimekuonyesha ni namna mfano ule hauendani na unachokipigia. Sasa nagging inakuja vipi wakati mfano wako sikuuelewa?

mhhh, kwanza umelizika na karibu nchi zote ulaya zinaruhusu dual?

Nimelizika ndiyo nini msomi?!?
Kama ulimaanisha nimeridhika, basi nimeridhika na hiyo mifano.

Lakini haina maana nimekubaliana na hoja zenu. Kwani nimesema, kinachoendelea huko Ulaya si lazima kifanyike hapa Tanzania.

Ndugu Kiranga alikuja na Westphalian system iliyokuwa ukingoni kufa, lakini nikamwambia pamoja na hilo, bado kuna chembechembe za huo mfumo bado zipo. Ndiyo Tanzania kama a sovereign state ina mamlaka ya kuamua mambo yake kwa jinsi inavyoona inafaa. Tanzania haiwezi kuwa bendera fuata upepo kwa sababu Ulaya wanafanya hivyo. Hii nimeikataa.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Hahahahahaah! Yaani kwenye post yangu nzima ume-pick one line kuijengea hoja? Come on! You're better than this Mkuu.

The issue is not whether or not Tanzania should follow the trend. Huwezi ukafuata trend bila kujua sababu za kuwepo kwa hiyo trend in the first place. Otherwise, you will be like jumping in a wagon without knowing inapokwenda.

Chifu, yale mengine yote kwa post yako yalikuwa sahihi. Yale ndiyo kweli yanayoendelea Ulaya. Hapo sina cha kuongeza.

Ila shida yangu ilikuwa katika kufuata huo upepo.

Lakini ni vyema umeweza kuelezea vizuri zaidi hapo chini.

Kimsingi nakubaliana na yote uliyoyasema kwenye hii post.

So, ingekuwa bora zaidi kama ungeuliza kwanza kwa nini kuna hiyo trend? Baada ya kujua sababu za kuwepo kwa hiyo trend, ndipo ungeuliza whether or not Tanzania should jump in the wagon. Hapo then tungezifanyia analysis hizo sababu in the context of the Tanzanian environment.

Vyema. Watetea hoja hawajaja na sababu zaidi ya kusema Westphalian system is on the deathbed.

Nami nimewaambia kitu kama hicho; wafanye baseline study itakayoongeza uzito wa hoja yao.

Kwa hiyo, the first question is: Kwa nini hivi karibuni nchi nyingi zimebadilisha sheria zao na kuruhusu dual nationality?

Sababu nilizosikia hadi sasa ni globalised world (failed Westphalian system). Mwingine aligusia theoretically kidogo suala la biashara za kimataifa.

Lakini hata kabla ya kuuliza hilo swali itabidi kwanza kujua the purpose of dual citizenship its advantages and disadvantages, etc.

Nami nimekuwa nikiomba hivyo pia. Nimeomba nipiwe faida za huo utaratibu; kwa ajabu kabisa, kuna mtu ananiuliza eti hasara zake ni nini?

Pheeeww!!

Atoe faida tuzione na kuzidigest, mambo ya hasara baadaye.

So, it is not about knowing the trends, but the causes of those trends

Exactly. I am interested in keeping on discussing the matter.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Qualification hiyo inaweza kuwa ya kufa mtu.

Ikiunganishwa na uraia, inaweza kusababisha mtu kuwa na kazi, au mtu kukosa kazi Unyamwezini (USA)

Na mtu kuweza au kushindwa kutuma hela Unyamwezini (Tabora)

Na shangazi akaweza au akashindwa kufanyiwa ile medical procedure aliyokuwa anaihitaji sana lakini hana funds.

Qualification hiyo unayoidharau, inaweza kuwa "ya kufa mtu" quite literally, kwa sababu shangazi anaweza kufa kwa kukosa funds kwa sababu kijana kashindwa kutuma hela nyumbani, kwa sababu hana kazi, na hana kazi kwa sababu qualification ya uraia kakosa kwa sababu Tanzania hairuhusu dual citizenship.

Ya kufa mtu, quite literally.

Chifu, nakuelewa sana.

Nimewaambia (mnaotetea hoja) ili kuipa uzito hoja yenu ebu fanyeni baseline study ya kufahamu ni kiasi gani watanzania walio nje wamesaidia mtu mmoja na taifa kwa ujumla katika hali ya kutokuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili. Na kwa kiasi wanatarajia kusaidia mtu mmoja mmoja na taifa kwa ujumla katika hali ya kuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili. Mnaweka na mifano hai ya nchi za kiafrika zilivyofaidika na utaratibu huo. Na Tanzania itachukua mazuri yepi katika kuhakikisha utaratibu huo unafanikiwa katika nchi.

Hii ina maana itahitaji kufahamu idadi ya hao watanzania, ujuzi na weledi wao. Ujuzi na weledi ambao unawafanya wawe potential katika sekta fulani huko Unyamwezini. Namna gani wametumia weledi na ujuzi huo sasa; na namna watautumia kusaidia taifa kwa ujumla wake. Mifano hai ya nchi zingine zilivyonufaika na ujuzi huo itakuwa muhimu kuipa uzito hoja.

Mkija na maelezo haya yote, sasa unakuwa mwanzo mzuri wa kujadili suala zima. Lakini mkija kama mnavyofanya sasa hakika hoja haitokuwa na mvuto kwa watunga sera na watanzania walio wengi. Ambao wanaona mnatetea maslahi yenu binafsi. (tafadhali msiendelee tena na utetezi wa kwamba eti mtu mmoja akifaidi ni vibaya? Maana watu watahoji hata uhalali wa kupinga ufisadi; kwani mafisadi nao wakifaidi wao kama wao, wanaweza kufanya hayo hayo mnayoyasema, kusaidia familia zao kutoka kwenye ufukara)

Mimi si mpinga maendeleo (kama yapo), ila nahoji ni namna gani tunayafikia hayo maendeleo. Kwa misingi na faida zipi?

Naamini umenipata chifu.

Wasalaam.

 

[EMT]

Ndiyo Tanzania kama a sovereign state ina mamlaka ya kuamua mambo yake kwa jinsi inavyoona inafaa.

You seem to be occupied by the traditional meaning of sovereignty.The meaning and the importance of sovereignty has changed radically over the past few years and continues to change today. Many developments account for the intensity of the post-Westphalian realisation that sovereignty should be reconsidered in the light of various new dimensions.

In the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century, sovereignty has a new meaning of the right of the citizens of a State to determine their own destiny. In the modern days, sovereignty entails both rights and responsibility. A State would be entitled to full panoply of sovereign rights if it fulfills its sovereign responsibility of cherishing, nurturing and protecting its people.

We all know that newly independent States such as Tanzania still prize sovereignty as a shield against colonial intervention. For States that do not care for the welfare of their people and leaders who are committed only to their personal aggrandizement, sovereignty as responsibility may be contrary to its traditional understanding.

These leaders will not even give a damn about the responsibility to protect.

 

[Eric Cartman]

Sasa kwa qualification hiyo ndiyo unataka mtu kama huyo awe na uraia wa nchi mbili?
Mpiga debe wenu Membe uwa anataja watu wenye qualifications za kufa mtu kama ndiyo msingi wa hoja. Anasema kuna watanzania wanafanya kazi NASA na Silicon Valley, wenye ujuzi wa hatari ambao taifa linaweza kufaidika na ujuzi huo.

Sasa kama ujuzi wenyewe ni wa kuongea kiswahili ili upate kazi Wizara ya Mambo ya Ndani, basi sioni haja ya kuendelea na mjadala. Ni bora uraia wa nchi mbili uruhusiwe tu. Na kuanzia sasa nitapigania uruhusiwe, ili tuongeze wataalamu wa kiswahili hapa Tanzania.

Issue hapo sio utaalamu wa kiswahili, bali wanaweza fit vipi kwenye ujenzi wa taifa. Kwa hali ya sasa sitegemei mfanyakazi wa NASA hawe na mchango wowote wa kimaendeleo iwapo hatarudi tanzania mata of fact ni kama hatakuwa anajiaribia maisha yake tu na long-term hapiness kutokana na programme za sasa.

Umuhimu wa diaspora hupo kwenye mipango ya maendeleo ya muda mrefu na kwenye kuleta changamoto za mbele. Kwa faida yako wengi sana wenye kazi za maana hawaishi kwa visa, ni wale wenye mapepa mzungu achezei talent akijua hunafaida kwake wewe unakula tu pepa no matter what. Amini usiamini kuna wapopo huwa wanagombewa na vyuo vya marekani na vya uingereza especially kwenye vyuo ambavyo vipo mbele kwenye science reseaches, sasa hutegemei huyu mtu hawe na direct impact in the third world.

Hila in the long run you know he can teach many to acquire his/her level of thinking and in return you can invest on researches because you have vast human capital ready for those challenges. Na hawa watu hawatokuja bila ya incentive's from government programmes.

Lakini kama huta base hizi argument kwa mifano uchwara it is pathetic, kwanza wengi wenye uraia wa nchi mbili mmoja wapo ukiwa wakitanzania hawaji huko na passport za ulaya kukwepa mengi including kulipia visa.

Na Tanzania bado haipo sophisticated ya kuwatambua hawa kwa sababu kama uingireza inakubali huwe na passport mbili people see no point even to care what the current administration is thinking wao sanasana passport za UK wanazitia kwenye mikoba wakija likizo. Mkianza tu kuchapana na fujo za udini or whatever the heck the social think it is necessary kuchapana, hiwapo SM whatever (meli zao za vita uingereza wanavyoziita)ikija jamaa wanatoa nyekundu zao hao baruti wanakimbizwa kama wazungu jamaa hawabagui so long unagamba jekundu, kama bado ukuchukua kazi kwako.

Point hapo ni kwamba dual citizenship ni kwa faida ya Tanzania only to encourage those with talent to return and build a nation na michango yao inahitajika kwakuwa wanaweza reason tofauti through developed first world experiences. Lakini hawa hakina yakhe believe me they don't care at all, and they are not patriots in most cases what matters ii's their families and self progress solely.

you have to think on this issues in terms of social benefits kuliko kujiami.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Kwa sababu kama kufaidi kwa mtu mmoja mmoja, hata sasa hivi bila ya kuwa na duala citizenship unaweza faidi.

Hapana. Sasa hivi kama mtu umechukua uraia wa nchi nyingine unapoteza uraia wako wa Tanzania. Hiyo siyo faida kamili. Ni faida nusu.

Naamisha hakuna nchi za Afrika zilizokubali dual citizenship ambazo zimebadilika kimaendeleo kwa kiasi kikubwa cha kufanya nchi kama Tanzania itake nayo iige utaratibu huo. Nimewaambia Nigeria imeanza utaratibu huo toka kitambo, lakini hadi sasa bado inaitwa nchi inayoendelea. Sasa argument yenu ya kusema duala citizenship itaboost international trade and the whole economy inakuwa haina mashiko. Nijifunze kutoka wapi?

Development is a multi-faceted front. Dual citizenship pekee haiwezi kuleta maendeleo "kwa kiasi kikubwa". Lakini ina cha kuchangia katika hiyo front ya maendeleo. Sasa kama wewe unadhani dual citizenship tu yenyewe inaweza kuleta maendeleo "kwa kiasi kikubwa" basi utakuwa umepotoka sana. Hata ukiangalia nchi zilizoendelea utaona kuwa maendeleo yake yameletwa na mambo mbalimbali na si jambo moja tu.

Vyema. Ebu nipe mifano ya kupunguka kwa fukara hao katika nchi yoyote ya Afrika, kuliko pelekea nchi husika kuwa siyo ya mafukara na kuwa nchi iliyoendelea

Again, hapa tunarudi palepale kwenye front ya maendeleo. Rejea nilichokiandika hapo juu. Sasa kama unataka mfano wa jina tu basi nitakupa hiyo hiyo Naijeria yako. Kwa viwango vyetu vya Afrika, Naijeria imetuzidi kimaendeleo kwa kiasi fulani. Unabisha?

Kama ndivyo, bado unaweza faidika bila ya kulilia dual citizenship. Mbona sasa mnasema mnafaidika kwa kufanya kazi huko majuu? Nani amesema hataki mfaidike; faidikeni tu, ila siyo kuleta hoja za kutaka muwe na uraia nchi mbili.

Hatufaidiki vilivyo. Sasa hivi nikichukua gamba la nchi nyingine basi nikitaka kuja kwenye nchi yangu nilikozaliwa itanibidi niombe viza. Huo ni usumbufu na kero. Kwa nini hutaki tufaidike to the max?

Yaani mkija na hiyo hoja ndugu zako, hakika hoja yenu haitokubalika. Hatuwezi kuwa taifa la bendera fuata upepo. Lazima katika kuamua tuamue kwa mantiki na bases ambazo tunaona zitakuwa za msingi

Kwa nini isikubalike? Ubaya wake uko wapi zaidi ya kusema kwamba tutafaidika mmoja mmoja? Hamtaki tufaidike to the max?

Sina haja ya kwenda. Kila kitu kinafahamika, kwamba Nigeria bado ni nchi maskini.
Nyiye wenye kutetea hoja, ndiyo mlete mifano ya kuonyesha ni kiasi gani duala citizenship imebadilisha hali za kiuchumi za nchi za kiafrika zilizo katika utaratibu huo.

Naijeria ni nchi maskini, ndiyo. Lakini umaskini wake huwezi kuulinganisha na umaskini wa Tanzania. Kwanza juzi juzi hapa Forbes wametoa orodha ya watu matajiri barani Afrika. Uliona jinsi Naijeria ilivyowakilishwa? Wabongo walikuwa wangapi kwenye hiyo orodha?

Ndiyo maana nimesema, kwa hoja zenu hafifu, hadi vilaza wa pale UDSM waliwapiga chini vibaya mno mnaodai dual citizenship, chini ya mpiga debe wenu Membe.

Kwa nini unawaita vilaza? Acha madharau Nzi. Binafsi mpaka sasa sijashawishika na hoja zenu nyie mnaopinga dual citizenship. Hoja yenu kuu ni kwamba tunataka kula huku na huku. Sasa tukila huku na huku kihalali kuna ubaya gani?

Nimewaambia katika kujenga hoja yenu, basi ebu fanyeni baseline study, katika kujua kuwa watanzania wangapi mataifa ya nje?; wangapi wanataka dual citizenship?; kazi na ujuzi wao ni upi?; kiasi cha pesa waliyo inject katika pato la taifa, kwa mtu mmoja na hata kwa taifa kiujumla?; kama kuna wenye investment, ni zipi? Faida za hizo investment ni zipi?
Hilo litawasaidia katika kujenga hoja ya nini kitapatikana kwa mtu mmoja na taifa kiujumla kama watanzania hao watakuwa na fursa ya kupata uraia wa nchi zenye maendeleo makubwa n.k.

Dual citizenship si kwa ajili ya investments tu. Kuna watu huko waliko wana familia - wake/waume na watoto waliowazalia huko. Dual citizenship itawasaidia watu kama hao pia.

Kwa mwanzo huo mnaweza mkaja na hoja yenye kuconvince watunga sheria; lakini mkitumia emotions, hapa hamtapata kitu bandugu.

Nani anatumia emotions hapa?

Wapi nimesema nimekubali?! Kusema hakuna ubaya wa mtu mmoja mmoja kufaidi, ndiyo kukubali huko?!??? :becky:

To all intents and purposes, yes. Ni kukubali.

Naangalia upande wa uchumi, kwa sababu ndiyo msingi mkuu wa kutaka uraia wa nchi mbili. Uraia wa nchi mbili unatokana na mahitaji ya watu kuexplore na kutumia fursa za kiuchumi zinazopatikana katika nchi ambayo mtu anataka kuwa na uraia wake.

Na ndiyo msingi wa kuweza kujenga ushawishi kwa watunga sera. Lakini mkienda na stori zenu za mtu mmoja mmoja kufaidi, hakika mtaambiwa endeleeni kufaidi na fursa zilizoko katika nyie kuishi na kufanya kazi majuu. Watunga sera na sheria wanataka kuona maslahi yaliyo wazi kwa taifa kutokana na utaratibu huo. Wanataka kuona kuruhusu kwa utaratibu huo kutakuza pato la taifa kwa asilimia kadhaa (kutokana na mifano kutoka nchi zilizo na utaratibu huo). Wanataka kuona utaratibu huo utaleta ongezeko la biashara ya kimataifa (pia mifano (practical examples) ni muhimu, siyo theories zenu za ajabu ajabu). Wanataka kuona utaratibu huo utapelekea ongezeko la viwanda; ongezeko la ujuzi kutoka kwa watanzania wenye ujuzi wa hali ya juu kutoka nchi zingine. N.K.

Amini haya ninayokwambia. Ukitaka acha.

Basi kwa taarifa yako dual citizenship haihusiani tu na mambo ya uchumi. Hata mambo ya kifamilia yanahusika pia.

 

[EMT]

Exactly. I am interested in keeping on discussing the matter.

Right. Let's keep the debate going then.

Mwaka 1985, timu ya mpira wa miguu ya Cameroon ilishinda kwa mara ya kwanza kwenye fainali za mashindano ya nchi za Afrika na zile za Kiasia. Fainali ilifanyika nchini Saudi Arabia. Baada ya Cameroon kushinda mechi, Saudi Arabia ilikataa kuipa Cameroon kombe kwa sababu walimchezesha mchezaji ambaye hakuwa raia wa Cameroon kwenye mechi ya kwanza iliyofanyika Yaoundé, Cameroon.

Mchezaji mwenyewe hakuwa mwingine bali kipenzi cha Waafrika, Roger Milla, who had showed up for the game with his French passport. Serikali ya Cameroon ilidai kuwa pamoja na kuwa na passport ya Ufaransa, Roger Milla bado alikuwa ni bona fide Cameroonian citizen ambaye alikuwa na haki, in fact the obligation, to defend the colours of his native land. Issue ilikuwa resolved baadae through high-level diplomatic exchanges na mediation ya FIFA.

Miaka kumi baadae serikali hiyo hiyo ya Cameroon ilimzuia another Cameroonian icon, the irascible novelist and critic Mongo Beti, from running for the 1997 parliamentary elections on grounds that he was not a Cameroonian. The reason? Wakati Mongo Beti aliporudi kutoka exile miaka michache kabla aliingia Cameroon kwa kutumia passport ya Ufaransa. Mpaka anakufa, serikali ya Cameroon iliendelea kumtambua Mongo Beti kama foreigner who was ceaselessly meddling in the affairs of his host country Cameroon.

Hizi incidents mbili tuu zinaweza kuonyesha how the schizophrenic and arbitrary nature nationality laws zinazotambua uraia mmoja can be. Kwa maana nyingine zinaweza kuonyesha faida ya kuwa na duo nationality kwa sababu the nationality law is generally enforced only when it is in the interest of the regime in power.

Sababu pekee ya Mongo Beti kukataliwa kuwa raia wa nchi yake was because he was a virulent critic of the then President and his regime. Nafikiri hii imeshamtokea pia Keneth Kaunda, pamoja na kwamba he was the first President of independent Zambia and ruled the country for decades. Hata Tanzania, mtu akileta chokochoko dhidi ya watawala cha kwanza wanachoangalia ni uraia wake. Refer cases of Generali Ulimwengu, Bashe na wengine.

Inawezekana kwa Tanzania bado hatujafika stage ya incidents za Cameroon lakini tutafika hasa pale kizazi ambacho kimekulia nje ya nchi kitakapoamua kurudi Tanzania. Possibility, ni kwamba wengi watakataliwa kuwa Watanzania kama wataanza kuwa critics wa watawala. Hata sasa wapo wengi tuu ndani ya CCM ambao wana uraia wa nchi mbili na wanajua wazi kuwa kama wakikihama chama hicho na kujiunga na chama cha upinzani lazima watakiona.

A leading Ugandan dual citizenship proponent pointed out during Uganda's debate on dual citizenship a couple of years ago that "If dual citizenship is easily available in all of Africa, then it would allow expatriates to return and invest in their birthplace, entice foreign investors and promote cross-border cooperation." Hizi ni grounds ambazo zinatumiwa na watu wengi wanaunga hoja ya duo nationality.

Ukiangalia calls nyingi za dual nationality across Africa are also driven by a growing recognition that the African diaspora is making immense contributions kwa uchumi wa nchi zao na kwamba contribution itaongezeka kama nationality laws are liberalized This was the stance taken by Ghana when it finally adopted the Dual Citizenship Regulation Act on July 3, 2002.

Speaking at the time, Dr. Addo-Kufuor, the then acting Minister of the Interior said that "The legislation is a tribute to the great support Ghana has received from her citizens who have been living beyond her shores over the years. This support has been in the areas of economic, technical, social and infrastructural development … The [Diaspora] contribution of 400 million dollars cannot be treated lightly, and so the importance Ghana attaches to [Diaspora] cannot be overemphasized."

Nakumbuka kipindi kile Marekani ilikuwa inaongoza duniani kwa kuwa na madaktari wengi kutoka Ghana. Wengi walikuwa wanaenda kusoma Marekani lakini baada ya kumaliza shule walikuwa hawarudi Ghana. Mpaka ikatokea complain that the West was stealing African intellectuals na kuziacha nchi za Afrika bila wajuzi. Maana kipindi kile waliokuwa wakiona unafaa wala walikuwa hawasubiri uombe uraia. Walikuwa wanakuletea kila kitu.

Hivi karibuni niliangalia documentary moja ya Waafrika ambao wameishi nje ya nchi zao kwa muda mrefu na baadae kuamua kurudi kwao na ku-invest. Wengi wa walio-feature kwenye hiyo documentary walikuwa ni Waghana na raia wa South Afrika. Kama Waghana waliamua kurudi kwa sababu ya kuanzishwa kwa dual citizenship sijui, lakini it may have played a significant part kwa sababu ali-feature Mkenya mmoja mwenye kampuni Marekani akadai alitaka kurudi Kenya kuanzisha a branch lakini akaamua kusubiri kwanza aone kama Kenya wangeanzisha duo citizenship. Pia how about The Boss (siyo yule wa JF) Kevin-Prince Boateng? Dual nationality haikusaidia kuchezea Ghana na kusaidia kuiweka Ghana kwenye ramani ya mpira kimataifa?

Others have argued that dual citizenship is embodied in the concept of Pan-Africanism, which promotes the cooperation among and integration of the African people. Pan-African leader Marcus Garvey notably said: "Africa for the Africans – those at home and those abroad." Kama mtu anaunga mkono Pan-Africanism ataji-contradict kama hataunga mkono duo citizenship.

Lakini kwangu mimi naliangalia suala zima la dual citizenship from a moral point of view. Whether kuna faida za kiuchumi nor not, sioni why it should be immoral kuwa na dual citizenship. Ukiangalia dual citizenship debate focuses on first generation immigrants who still have direct ties to their countries of birth. Lakini tukiangalia hili suala kwa mapana zaidi kuna aina mbili za African Diaspora. Kundi la kwanza linahusu wale waliochukuliwa involuntary kutoka Afrika in the slave trade aka historic African Diaspora. Kundi la pili linahusu wale waliondoka Afrika voluntarily to emigrate elsewhere in the world: the modern-day African Diaspora.

With regard to the second group, there is an increasing interest in the children and grandchildren of these immigrants who are born in these foreign countries, and who have only a tenuous link to their parents' countries of birth. In this case, dual citizenship offers an incentive to reconnect with their roots. I believe that there should always be a moral right to return for these people.

Kuhusu kundi la kwanza (historic African Diaspora) naamini pia they should have a moral right to return. Tena hivi karibuni kuna kampuni (African Ancestry) (African Ancestry - Home: Trace Your DNA. Find Your Roots. Today.) ime-develop a DNA test which can authenticate genetic linkage to African ethnic groups and the country in which that ethnic group now resides. Hiyo test ina-indicate sehemu ambayo ancestors wa mhusika walichukuliwa wakati wa biashara ya utumwa. The test establishes a scientifically verifiable link to a specific African country or countries, since tests often reveal multiple ethnic heritages located in more than one country.

Nchi za Kiafrika ambazo zimekubali kuwapokea hawa watu kama ikidhibitishwa kwa DNA kuwa their ancestors came from those countries include Cameroon, Guinea Bissau, Nigeria and Sierra Leone, each representing greater than 15% of results). Equatorial Guinea, Ghana, Liberia and Senegal represent between 5-10% of results. Angola, Benin, Central African Republic, DRC, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gabon, Guinea, Kenya, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Mozambique, Niger, Somalia, South Africa and Sudan each represent less than 5% of results.

Inawezekana Tanzania tumekataa kumpokea mtu yoyote ambaye ancestors wake walichukuliwa kama watumwa wakati huo simply because we don't believe in dual citizenship? Do you think that there is a moral right for these people to return to their roots (bila kupoteza their current citizenship) if they wish too? Kama unaona ni sawa wao kurudi kwa ancestors kama wakitaka, what a justification is there kwa wao kuuvua kwanza uraia walio nao sasa ili wapewe uraia wa Tanzania?

 

[BGG]

GAD ONEYA
The answer is yes

siungu mkono uraia
wa nchi mbili.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Mwaka 1985, timu ya mpira wa miguu ya Cameroon ilishinda kwa mara ya kwanza kwenye fainali za mashindano ya nchi za Afrika na zile za Kiasia. Fainali ilifanyika nchini Saudi Arabia. Baada ya Cameroon kushinda mechi, Saudi Arabia ilikataa kuipa Cameroon kombe kwa sababu walimchezesha mchezaji ambaye hakuwa raia wa Cameroon kwenye mechi ya kwanza iliyofanyika Yaoundé, Cameroon.

Mchezaji mwenyewe hakuwa mwingine bali kipenzi cha Waafrika, Roger Milla, who had showed up for the game with his French passport. Serikali ya Cameroon ilidai kuwa pamoja na kuwa na passport ya Ufaransa, Roger Milla bado alikuwa ni bona fide Cameroonian citizen ambaye alikuwa na haki, in fact the obligation, to defend the colours of his native land. Issue ilikuwa resolved baadae through high-level diplomatic exchanges na mediation ya FIFA.

Miaka kumi baadae serikali hiyo hiyo ya Cameroon ilimzuia another Cameroonian icon, the irascible novelist and critic Mongo Beti, from running for the 1997 parliamentary elections on grounds that he was not a Cameroonian. The reason? Wakati Mongo Beti aliporudi kutoka exile miaka michache kabla aliingia Cameroon kwa kutumia passport ya Ufaransa. Mpaka anakufa, serikali ya Cameroon iliendelea kumtambua Mongo Beti kama foreigner who was ceaselessly meddling in the affairs of his host country Cameroon.

Hizi incidents mbili tuu zinaweza kuonyesha how the schizophrenic and arbitrary nature nationality laws zinazotambua uraia mmoja can be. Kwa maana nyingine zinaweza kuonyesha faida ya kuwa na duo nationality kwa sababu the nationality law is generally enforced only when it is in the interest of the regime in power.

Sababu pekee ya Mongo Beti kukataliwa kuwa raia wa nchi yake was because he was a virulent critic of the then President and his regime.

Chifu, kabla ya yote, umefanya plagiarism - umejifanya hiyo habari umeitunga wewe bila ku acknowledge the original source; iliandikwa na Dibussi Tande (mwanahabari wa Cameroon) ikiwa na kichwa cha habari "Why liberalising nationality law is a win-win situation". Ulichofanya ni kuitafsiri kwenda kwenye Kiswahili.

Habari yenyewe ni hii hapa: Africa: The case for dual citizenship

Possibility, ni kwamba wengi watakataliwa kuwa Watanzania kama wataanza kuwa critics wa watawala. Hata sasa wapo wengi tuu ndani ya CCM ambao wana uraia wa nchi mbili na wanajua wazi kuwa kama wakikihama chama hicho na kujiunga na chama cha upinzani lazima watakiona.

Tatizo hao unaowasema ndiyo wamekuwa watu wakujipendekeza kwa watawala. Watakuwa critics vipi wakati wanataka watawala hao hao ndiyo wakubali utaratibu wa uraia wa nchi mbili?

Pia chifu tuombe radhi sisi tuliomo hapa nchini; kwani unataka kutu label kama watu wasio na uwezo wa kuwa critics wa serikali. Hiyo siyo sahihi; kwani kukaa au kuishi nje ya Tanzania hakumpelekei mtu kuwa na uwezo wa ku criticize serikali.

Ukiangalia calls nyingi za dual nationality across Africa are also driven by a growing recognition that the African diaspora is making immense contributions kwa uchumi wa nchi zao na kwamba contribution itaongezeka kama nationality laws are liberalized This was the stance taken by Ghana when it finally adopted the Dual Citizenship Regulation Act on July 3, 2002. Speaking at the time, Dr. Addo-Kufuor, the then acting Minister of the Interior said that "The legislation is a tribute to the great support Ghana has received from her citizens who have been living beyond her shores over the years. This support has been in the areas of economic, technical, social and infrastructural development … The [Diaspora] contribution of 400 million dollars cannot be treated lightly, and so the importance Ghana attaches to [Diaspora] cannot be overemphasized."

Vyema.

Mimi nimemwambia Nyani Ngabu juu ya umuhimu wa uhusiano wa duala citizenship na ukuaji wa uchumi, yeye akasema si lazima kuhusisha suala hili na uchumi, hata familia inaweza kuhusishwa. Kwenye kujenga hoja, ukihusisha suala la familia, watunga sera na sheria hawataona umuhimu wa hoja hiyo kwa maslahi mazima ya taifa. Je, ambao hawana familia zilizo ughaibuni, nao watawekwa wapi? Kwa hiyo hoja itakuwa ni kutetea maslahi ya kikundi kidogo cha watu wenye familia zao ughaibuni wanaotaka taifa zima likubali matakwa yao. Hapo itakuwa ngumu kukubalika.

Nikirudi kwenye mfano wa Ghana, pia nimewaambia watetea hoja, waje na evidence za kutosha, zinazoonyesha watanzania walio nje ni wangapi; hadi sasa wameshachangia kiasi gani kwa pato la taifa; wana ujuzi na utaalamu upi; ni fursa zipi wanazikosa kutokana na kutokuwepo kwa utaratibu wa dual citizenship; utaratibu ukiwekwa, watatumiaje fursa hizo kwa manufaa ya mtu mmoja mmoja na taifa kwa ujumla.

Sasa hivi wanadai kwamba watapata kupata ajira zilizo na malipo mazuri; kwani nyingi ya ajira hizo ni lazima uwe raia wa nchi husika. Vyema. Lakini itapendeza kama wakisema hadi sasa wameshachangia kiasi gani katika pato la mtu mmoja mmoja na pato la taifa. Wanaposema kwamba wakiwa na hizo ajira nzuri watasaidia akina mjomba na shangazi, inaleta shida kwa wale wasio na ndugu huko ughaibuni. Ndiyo maana inaonekana hakuna haja ya kuwa na huu utaratibu. Lazima hoja zijengwe katika mlengo wa kuonyesha ni kwa namna gani dola litanufaika kupitia ujuzi wao au investments zao n.k.

Nakumbuka kipindi kile Marekani ilikuwa inaongoza duniani kwa kuwa na madaktari wengi kutoka Ghana. Wengi walikuwa wanaenda kusoma Marekani lakini baada ya kumaliza shule walikuwa hawarudi Ghana. Mpaka ikatokea complain that the West was stealing African intellectuals na kuziacha nchi za Afrika bila wajuzi. Maana kipindi kile waliokuwa wakiona unafaa wala walikuwa hawasubiri uombe uraia. Walikuwa wanakuletea kila kitu.

Vyema. Watetea hoja waje na evidence juu ya ujuzi wa hao watanzania madaktari (wapo wangapi? wapo wapi?) ambao wanaweza kuwa na faida kubwa kwa jamii na taifa kwa ujumla.

Hivi karibuni niliangalia documentary moja ya Waafrika ambao wameishi nje ya nchi zao kwa muda mrefu na baadae kuamua kurudi kwao na ku-invest. Wengi wa walio-feature kwenye hiyo documentary walikuwa ni Waghana na raia wa South Afrika. Kama Waghana waliamua kurudi kwa sababu ya kuanzishwa kwa dual citizenship sijui, lakini it may have played a significant part kwa sababu ali-feature Mkenya mmoja mwenye kampuni Marekani akadai alitaka kurudi Kenya kuanzisha a branch lakini akaamua kusubiri kwanza aone kama Kenya wangeanzisha duo citizenship. Pia how about The Boss (siyo yule wa JF) Kevin-Prince Boateng? Dual nationality haikusaidia kuchezea Ghana na kusaidia kuiweka Ghana kwenye ramani ya mpira kimataifa?

Vyema. Ikipatikana mifano ya watanzania wenye huo ujuzi na utaalamu na namna wanavyoweza kusaidia jamii na taifa, itaongeza uzito kwenye hoja. Watanzania wangapi wenye fursa kuwa raia wa nchi fulani, ambao wanaweza kuwa na mitaji ya kuja kuwekeza, siyo kuja na investment uchwara, ambazo mtu bila hata ya kuwa uraia wa nchi za ughaibuni anaweza kufanya.

Kwenye soka nasikia kuna bwana mdogo, Adam Nditi yupo Chelsea; lakini swali, hata akipewa uraia wa nchi mbili, atakubali kuchezea Tanzania, in case nchi hiyo nyingine itamuhitaji? Kuna haja ya kuwa na database ya watu kama kina Nditi pote duniani

Others have argued that dual citizenship is embodied in the concept of Pan-Africanism, which promotes the cooperation among and integration of the African people. Pan-African leader Marcus Garvey notably said: "Africa for the Africans – those at home and those abroad." Kama mtu anaunga mkono Pan-Africanism ataji-contradict kama hataunga mkono duo citizenship.

Interesting. I will get back to it later on.

Lakini kwangu mimi naliangalia suala zima la dual citizenship from a moral point of view. Whether kuna faida za kiuchumi nor not, sioni why it should be immoral kuwa na dual citizenship. Ukiangalia dual citizenship debate focuses on first generation immigrants who still have direct ties to their countries of birth. Lakini tukiangalia hili suala kwa mapana zaidi kuna aina mbili za African Diaspora. Kundi la kwanza linahusu wale waliochukuliwa involuntary kutoka Afrika in the slave trade aka historic African Diaspora. Kundi la pili linahusu wale waliondoka Afrika voluntarily to emigrate elsewhere in the world: the modern-day African Diaspora.

With regard to the second group, there is an increasing interest in the children and grandchildren of these immigrants who are born in these foreign countries, and who have only a tenuous link to their parents' countries of birth. In this case, dual citizenship offers an incentive to reconnect with their roots. I believe that there should always be a moral right to return for these people.

Kuhusu kundi la kwanza (historic African Diaspora) naamini pia they should have a moral right to return. Tena hivi karibuni kuna kampuni (African Ancestry) (African Ancestry - Home: Trace Your DNA. Find Your Roots. Today.) ime-develop a DNA test which can authenticate genetic linkage to African ethnic groups and the country in which that ethnic group now resides. Hiyo test ina-indicate sehemu ambayo ancestors wa mhusika walichukuliwa wakati wa biashara ya utumwa. The test establishes a scientifically verifiable link to a specific African country or countries, since tests often reveal multiple ethnic heritages located in more than one country.

Nchi za Kiafrika ambazo zimekubali kuwapokea hawa watu kama ikidhibitishwa kwa DNA kuwa their ancestors came from those countries include Cameroon, Guinea Bissau, Nigeria and Sierra Leone, each representing greater than 15% of results). Equatorial Guinea, Ghana, Liberia and Senegal represent between 5-10% of results. Angola, Benin, Central African Republic, DRC, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gabon, Guinea, Kenya, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Mozambique, Niger, Somalia, South Africa and Sudan each represent less than 5% of results.

Inawezekana Tanzania tumekataa kumpokea mtu yoyote ambaye ancestors wake walichukuliwa kama watumwa wakati huo simply because we don't believe in dual citizenship? Do you think that there is a moral right for these people to return to their roots (bila kupoteza their current citizenship) if they wish too? Kama unaona ni sawa wao kurudi kwa ancestors kama wakitaka, what a justification is there kwa wao kuuvua kwanza uraia walio nao sasa ili wapewe uraia wa Tanzania?

Again very interesting. Nitarudi baadaye kwa ajili ya hii discussion ya dual citizenship, morality and immorality.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Mimi nimemwambia Nyani Ngabu juu ya umuhimu wa uhusiano wa duala citizenship na ukuaji wa uchumi, yeye akasema si lazima kuhusisha suala hili na uchumi, hata familia inaweza kuhusishwa. Kwenye kujenga hoja, ukihusisha suala la familia, watunga sera na sheria hawataona umuhimu wa hoja hiyo kwa maslahi mazima ya taifa. Je, ambao hawana familia zilizo ughaibuni, nao watawekwa wapi? Kwa hiyo hoja itakuwa ni kutetea maslahi ya kikundi kidogo cha watu wenye familia zao ughaibuni wanaotaka taifa zima likubali matakwa yao. Hapo itakuwa ngumu kukubalika

Kwa nini watunga sheria na sera wasione umuhimu wa hoja hiyo kwa maslahi mazima ya taifa?

Na kwani ni lazima kila mtu afaidike? Hivi utoaji wa passports, kwa mfano, umemnufaisha kila Mtanzania?

Kila Mtanzania ana ndugu mwenye passport?

Na kuruhusu uraia pacha siyo kutetea na kunufaisha kikundi kidogo tu cha watu wenye familia zao ughaibuni. Ukiruhusu utaratibu huo basi fursa ya kunufaika nao inakuwa kwa yeyote yule atakayetaka kufanya hivyo.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Kwa nini watunga sheria na sera wasione umuhimu wa hoja hiyo kwa maslahi mazima ya taifa?

Kwa sababu hoja haijajengwa katika misingi ya kuonyesha hayo maslahi mazima ya taifa yatapatikana vipi.

Na kwani ni lazima kila mtu afaidike?

Ndiyo. Kwa sababu utaratibu huo utahitaji utungwaji wa sera na sheria. Vivyo, ni lazima ionekane wazi wazi (explicitly) namna gani utaratibu huo utakuwa na maslahi mazima kwa taifa. Huwezi kusema ufaidike pekee yako wakati rasilimali na kodi za watanzania wote zitatumika katika kuandaa utaratibu huo.

Hivi utoaji wa passports, kwa mfano, umemnufaisha kila Mtanzania?

Chifu ukitaka tujadili kuruhusiwa kwa uraia wa nchi mbili kwa minajili ya kufananishwa na utoaji wa passport, hatutafika.

Kwa sababu suala la uraia wa nchi mbili ni kubwa na pana mno kuliko utoaji wa passport. Haliepukiki kujadiliwa katika mtazamo wa kitaifa zaidi kuliko mtu mmoja mmoja.

Kila Mtanzania ana ndugu mwenye passport?

Siko katika nafasi ya kukataa wala kukubali. Kwani sifahamu ni watanzania wangapi wanamiliki passport? Na wanaomiliki wana ndugu wangapi?

Ukiruhusu utaratibu huo basi fursa ya kunufaika nao inakuwa kwa yeyote yule atakayetaka kufanya hivyo.

Vyema.

Hapa ndipo panapoleta shida.
Nimewauliza sana juu ya nini mmefanya katika mazingira ya sasa ya bila uraia wa nchi mbili? Mna ujuzi na utaalamu upi? Ni nafasi zipi mnazozikosa kutokana na kutokuwepo kwa uraia wa nchi mbili? Na kwa kupata hizo nafasi mtazidisha nini katika kile mnachokifanya sasa katika mazingira ya kutokuwepo kwa uraia wa nchi mbili?

Lazima hayo yajulikane wazi ili kuongeza uzito wa hoja.

 

[EMT]

Chifu, kabla ya yote, umefanya plagiarism - umejifanya hiyo habari umeitunga wewe bila ku acknowledge the original source; iliandikwa na Dibussi Tande (mwanahabari wa Cameroon) ikiwa na kichwa cha habari "Why liberalising nationality law is a win-win situation". Ulichofanya ni kuitafsiri kwenda kwenye Kiswahili. Habari yenyewe ni hii hapa: Africa: The case for dual citizenship

Yea, they were factual situations which happened, but how would you reconcile those two incidents?

Tatizo hao unaowasema ndiyo wamekuwa watu wakujipendekeza kwa watawala. Watakuwa critics vipi wakati wanataka watawala hao hao ndiyo wakubali utaratibu wa uraia wa nchi mbili? Pia chifu tuombe radhi sisi tuliomo hapa nchini; kwani unataka kutu label kama watu wasio na uwezo wa kuwa critics wa serikali. Hiyo siyo sahihi; kwani kukaa au kuishi nje ya Tanzania hakumpelekei mtu kuwa na uwezo wa ku criticize serikali.

Mkuu siweze kukuomba radhi kwa sababu hiyo siyo argument yangu. Nilikuwa na-survey arguments ambazo zinatumiwa na watu in support of duo nationality. Argument yangu (morality) ilikuwa chini kabisa.

Vyema.

Mimi nimemwambia Nyani Ngabu juu ya umuhimu wa uhusiano wa duala citizenship na ukuaji wa uchumi, yeye akasema si lazima kuhusisha suala hili na uchumi, hata familia inaweza kuhusishwa. Kwenye kujenga hoja, ukihusisha suala la familia, watunga sera na sheria hawataona umuhimu wa hoja hiyo kwa maslahi mazima ya taifa. Je, ambao hawana familia zilizo ughaibuni, nao watawekwa wapi? Kwa hiyo hoja itakuwa ni kutetea maslahi ya kikundi kidogo cha watu wenye familia zao ughaibuni wanaotaka taifa zima likubali matakwa yao. Hapo itakuwa ngumu kukubalika.

Nikirudi kwenye mfano wa Ghana, pia nimewaambia watetea hoja, waje na evidence za kutosha, zinazoonyesha watanzania walio nje ni wangapi; hadi sasa wameshachangia kiasi gani kwa pato la taifa; wana ujuzi na utaalamu upi; ni fursa zipi wanazikosa kutokana na kutokuwepo kwa utaratibu wa dual citizenship; utaratibu ukiwekwa, watatumiaje fursa hizo kwa manufaa ya mtu mmoja mmoja na taifa kwa ujumla.

Sasa hivi wanadai kwamba watapata kupata ajira zilizo na malipo mazuri; kwani nyingi ya ajira hizo ni lazima uwe raia wa nchi husika. Vyema. Lakini itapendeza kama wakisema hadi sasa wameshachangia kiasi gani katika pato la mtu mmoja mmoja na pato la taifa. Wanaposema kwamba wakiwa na hizo ajira nzuri watasaidia akina mjomba na shangazi, inaleta shida kwa wale wasio na ndugu huko ughaibuni. Ndiyo maana inaonekana hakuna haja ya kuwa na huu utaratibu. Lazima hoja zijengwe katika mlengo wa kuonyesha ni kwa namna gani dola litanufaika kupitia ujuzi wao au investments zao n.k.

Again, it was not my argument, but one put forward by others. I will not defend on behalf of them.

Vyema. Watetea hoja waje na evidence juu ya ujuzi wa hao watanzania madaktari (wapo wangapi? wapo wapi?) ambao wanaweza kuwa na faida kubwa kwa jamii na taifa kwa ujumla.

Vyema. Ikipatikana mifano ya watanzania wenye huo ujuzi na utaalamu na namna wanavyoweza kusaidia jamii na taifa, itaongeza uzito kwenye hoja. Watanzania wangapi wenye fursa kuwa raia wa nchi fulani, ambao wanaweza kuwa na mitaji ya kuja kuwekeza, siyo kuja na investment uchwara, ambazo mtu bila hata ya kuwa uraia wa nchi za ughaibuni anaweza kufanya.

Kwenye soka nasikia kuna bwana mdogo, Adam Nditi yupo Chelsea; lakini swali, hata akipewa uraia wa nchi mbili, atakubali kuchezea Tanzania, in case nchi hiyo nyingine itamuhitaji? Kuna haja ya kuwa na database ya watu kama kina Nditi pote duniani

Siyo Nditi tuu. Wako wengi wanachezea madaraja ya chini. Wengi wa hawa itawawia vigumu kuchezea timu za taifa kama Spain na Uingereza, lakini wanaweza kutufaa sana kwa level. Kama The Boss hakuchaguliwa kwenye timu ya Ujerumani ndiyo akaenda kuichezea Ghana.

Interesting. I will get back to it later on.

Again very interesting. Nitarudi baadaye kwa ajili ya hii discussion ya dual citizenship, morality and immorality.

And this is where my argument stands. Waiting....

 

[mjengwa-halifa]

Kwa nini watunga sheria na sera wasione umuhimu wa hoja hiyo kwa maslahi mazima ya taifa?

Na kwani ni lazima kila mtu afaidike? Hivi utoaji wa passports, kwa mfano, umemnufaisha kila Mtanzania?

Kila Mtanzania ana ndugu mwenye passport?

Na kuruhusu uraia pacha siyo kutetea na kunufaisha kikundi kidogo tu cha watu wenye familia zao ughaibuni. Ukiruhusu utaratibu huo basi fursa ya kunufaika nao inakuwa kwa yeyote yule atakayetaka kufanya hivyo.

Swadakta, nakubaliana na wewe kabisa, kama wanaweza kutoa passport kwa baadhi ya watanzania ambao faida zake wote tunaziona kwa nini tushindwe kuruhusu dual citizenship?

Hawa wanaopinga paka dakika hii wao wanapinga tu lakini hawaleti hoja za mashiko za kwa nini wanapinga.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Hawa wanaopinga paka dakika hii wao wanapinga tu

Sio napinga tu, napinga kwa sababu sijaona faida ambazo zitaletwa na huo utaratibu. Sijaona bado kwanini dual citizenship wakati kuna fursa zinapatikana kwa kwenda nje na kupata ajira na maslahi bora kuliko hapa Tanzania.

Nimewaambia mfanye baseline study ya kujenga hoja. Mnabaki na kushikilia upatikanaji wa fursa zitakazoletwa na dual citizenship. Nimeuliza fursa hizo ni zipi? Hadi sasa ametumiaje fursa zilizopo kunufaisha nyumbani kwenu? Utaratibu huo ukianza fursa zipi zitaongezeka na kupelekea kuongeza manufaa kwenu? Ni watanzania wangapi mna ujuzi na utaalamu mtakaonufaika na fursa zitakazopatikana? Ujuzi na utaalamu wenye kuhitajika sana Tanzania (msije na stori zenu za utaalamu wa kiswahili).

lakini hawaleti hoja za mashiko za kwa nini wanapinga.

Chifu, ebu leta hoja za mashiko za kwanini nikubali dual citizenship.

Jengeni hoja, mimi tu mkulima mwenye bahati ya kuingia mtandaoni sielewi hoja zenu, je wakulima wenzangu wa hapa Madibira wataelewa kweli? (Kumbuka sasa sera zote zinatungwa kwa njia ya ushirikishwaji wa wananchi. Au mnafikiri 'elites' kama nyie ndiyo mtajadili na kuitunga sera?)