Vita vya Kagera: Nini chanzo? Kulikuwa na ulazima?

[William J. Malecela]

Muongo mkubwa wewe!

- WEwe mkweli mbona hukujibu maswali umeenda kuomba wamfungie jamaa! ndio unaanza kujotokeza sasa zile zile tabia zenu! ha! ha! ha!

FMES!

 

[William J. Malecela]

William
Soma report ya G8 summit Muskoka Canada 2010. Russia ilifuta 100% ya madeni kwa nchi maskini 16 duniani Tanzania ilikuwa ni mojawapo wa tulionufaika na uamuzi huo wa Russia, walitangaza azma hiyo 20007 na walitekeleza ahadi yao 2010; 2006 China walifuta 1/3 ya deni letu; kwa deni la vita limekwisha tujadili hili linalotukwamisha sasa hivi.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

- Lakini si kuna mahali mlisema Mwalimu kabla hajafa alihakikisha amefuta hayo madeni, sasa 1999 na 2006 unayosema mbopna ni tofauti sana au?


FMeS!

 

[chama]

Idd Amin hakuwa mjinga hivyo bali tamaa yake ya madaraka na ndoto kama za Ghadaff ndizo zilimponza, lakini alipendwa kuliko viongozi wote wa Uganda.

Mkuu Mkandara
Waganda hawakuwa na mapenzi na Idd Amin walikuwa na hofu wakati wa utawala wa Amin ilikuwa ummpende yeye ama uuliwe; Amin alishajijengea utamaduni wa kuua wapinzani wake aliauwa mamia ya askari wanye kutoka makabila ya Acholi Lango, aliuuwa Askofu Mkuu wa kanisa la Anglikana, gavana wa benki kuu, waziri wake mkuu; kwa ujumla waganda walitawaliwa na hofu na si mapenzi.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Jasusi]

Mkuu Mkandara
Waganda hawakuwa na mapenzi na Idd Amin walikuwa na hofu wakati wa utawala wa Amin ilikuwa ummpende yeye ama uuliwe; Amin alishajijengea utamaduni wa kuua wapinzani wake aliauwa mamia ya askari wanye kutoka makabila ya Acholi Lango, aliuuwa Askofu Mkuu wa kanisa la Anglikana, gavana wa benki kuu, waziri wake mkuu; kwa ujumla waganda walitawaliwa na hofu na si mapenzi.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,
Unachosema ni kweli. Amin alipochukua utawala Baganda walisherehekea kwa sababu ya chuki zao kwa Obote ambaye alifuta utawala wa Kabaka. Kuna rafiki yangu wa Kiganda hapa Washington alifanya sherehe baada ya Obote kupinduliwa. Lakini miaka michache baadaye nilikutana naye alilalamika "Amin ni mukyenzi (mshenzi) anakinja (chinja) watu.

 

[Zakumi]

William
Soma report ya G8 summit Muskoka Canada 2010. Russia ilifuta 100% ya madeni kwa nchi maskini 16 duniani Tanzania ilikuwa ni mojawapo wa tulionufaika na uamuzi huo wa Russia, walitangaza azma hiyo 20007 na walitekeleza ahadi yao 2010; 2006 China walifuta 1/3 ya deni letu; kwa deni la vita limekwisha tujadili hili linalotukwamisha sasa hivi.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,

Kwa hiyo China na Urusi waliposamehe madeni yetu, tayari madeni ya vita yaliisha? Inaonyesha unataka kuua mada kwa kuleta hoja ya ufisadi.

 

[chama]

- Lakini si kuna mahali mlisema Mwalimu kabla hajafa alihakikisha amefuta hayo madeni, sasa 1999 na 2006 unayosema mbopna ni tofauti sana au?


FMeS!

FMeS umepotea sana karibu kwenya mjadala; hebu quote nilichokiandika halafu tukijadili

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[chama]

Chama,

Kwa hiyo China na Urusi waliposamehe madeni yetu, tayari madeni ya vita yaliisha? Inaonyesha unataka kuua mada kwa kuleta hoja ya ufisadi.

Mada hajaikwisha mtoa mada anajaribu kuoanisha matatizo yanayotukabili hivi sasa na vita vya Kagera; mimi ninachofanya ni kupinga hoja yake na kumueleza ukweli wa kiini cha matatizo yetu yanayotukabili hivi sasa

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Zakumi]

Chama,
Unachosema ni kweli. Amin alipochukua utawala Baganda walisherehekea kwa sababu ya chuki zao kwa Obote ambaye alifuta utawala wa Kabaka. Kuna rafiki yangu wa Kiganda hapa Washington alifanya sherehe baada ya Obote kupinduliwa. Lakini miaka michache baadaye nilikutana naye alilalamika "Amin ni mukyenzi (mshenzi) anakinja (chinja) watu.

Jasusi,

Kwanini unasema waganda walisherehekea kwa chuki zao? Ulitaka wamsifu mtu anaharibu taasisi zao?

 

[Zakumi]

Mada hajaikwisha mtoa mada anajaribu kuoanisha matatizo yanayotukabili hivi sasa na vita vya Kagera; mimi ninachofanya ni kupinga hoja yake na kumueleza ukweli wa kiini cha matatizo yetu yanayotukabili hivi sasa

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Tanzania isingepigana vita, ingetumia resources zake kujenga misingi ya maendeleo ambayo ingesaidia taifa sasa. Hivyo anayo hoja ya kimsingi kuunganisha yaliopita na matatizo ya sasa. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it [George Santayana].

 

[chama]

Tanzania isingepigana vita, ingetumia resources zake kujenga misingi ya maendeleo ambayo ingesaidia taifa sasa. Hivyo anayo hoja ya kimsingi kuunganisha yaliopita na matatizo ya sasa. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it [George Santayana].

Je ulitaka Idd Amin aendelee kuikalia ardhi yetu? Nilishukuambia deni la vita na Uganda mdeni wetu mkubwa 90% alikuwa mrusi na ameshasamehe deni tatizo lipo wapi; unataka kusema hizi pesa serikali inazopototeza kila kwa ufisadi hazingefaa kwenye kuleta maendeleo ya Taifa? Mbona unajichanganya sana

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[reandle]

mpendwa,

naamini unajua maana ya "juhudi za kidiplomasia"

sasa, naomba tuzungumze vizuri, baada ya OAU (OAU kwa sasa) kukataa kumlaani amin, nini kiklifuatia, na nani alishinda?

Kilichofuata ni kwamba Nyerere alisusia mkutano wa OAU lakini mkutano uliendelea ingawaje Mwalimu alisusia. Hapo hapakuwa na suala la kutafuta nani mshindi, lakini kama unataka tuweke hivyo basi OAU ndie alikuwa mshindi kwavile mkutano uliendelea kama kawa!

je unajua kuwa tanzania (nyerere) ilikosana na OAU kwa sababu ya amini? kati ya msimamo wa tanzania na msimamo wa OAU dhidi ya amini, ni upi ilishinda?

Jibu ni hilo hapo juu!

naomba nitajie vita moja ambayo nchi yoyote duniani imewahi kupigana dhidi ya nchi nyingine (iliyosaidiwa na nchi kadhaa nyingine) na nchi isiyokuwa na msaada ikashinda!

Bila shaka unataka kusema kwamba hiyo ambayo ilisaidiwa na nchi kadhaa ni Uganda ya Amin! Kama ndivyo, i berg to differ with u...Amin alisaidiwa na Libya peke yake...!! Lakini kama unataka jibu kulingana na swali lako, basi ni Vietnam-KampucheaWar, ambayo pamoja na kwamba China iliivamia Vietnam kuisaidia Kampuchea kama ambavyo Libya ilifanya kwa TZ kumsaidia Amin, basdo majeshi ya China yalipata upinzani mkali kutoka kwa majeshi ya Vietnam na hivyo kuingia mitini kama ambavyo ilikuwa kwa Libya!! Need to say more?!

napenda kukuambia kuwa hakuna nchi yenye heshima kubwa AU na UN kuishinda Tanzania!!

Nimependa Uzalendo wako hata kama madai yako si ya kweli!

 

[Zakumi]

Je ulitaka Idd Amin aendelee kuikalia ardhi yetu? Nilishukuambia deni la vita na Uganda mdeni wetu mkubwa 90% alikuwa mrusi na ameshasamehe deni tatizo lipo wapi; unataka kusema hizi pesa serikali inazopototeza kila kwa ufisadi hazingefaa kwenye kuleta maendeleo ya Taifa? Mbona unajichanganya sana

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

I have no problem with the way Tanzanians fought to liberate their piece of land. It was within their military jurisdiction to do so. The main purpose of the army is to protect the integrity of its nation, and the TPDF did just that.

That being said, I believe there are genuine issues that need to be address openly so the current and future generations could learn from previous experience. For example, you mention that 90% percent of the total debt of the war came from Russia. Is that true? or you just pull the number out of thin air.

It's true that during the war, the USSR supplied essential military hardware. However, hardware alone don't win the war because there are other direct and indirect costs. For examples, to operate tanks and other equipments the army needed diesel or gasoline. Do you think Russians paid for this? To pay military personell, the army needed cash. Do you think the Russians helped us? To maintain peace in Uganda for more than 2 years, the army needed financial resources. Do you think the Russian paid the bill?

If you exermine that war in its entiretly, you would find out that there were more to it than military hardware from the USSR.

 

[chama]

I have no problem with the way Tanzanians fought to liberate their piece of land. It was within their military jurisdiction to do so. The main purpose of the army is to protect the integrity of its nation, and the TPDF did just that.

That being said, I believe there are genuine issues that need to be address openly so the current and future generations could learn from previous experience. For example, you mention that 90% percent of the total debt of the war came from Russia. Is that true? or you just pull the number out of thin air.

It's true that during the war, the USSR supplied essential military hardware. However, hardware alone don't win the war because there are other direct and indirect costs. For examples, to operate tanks and other equipments the army needed diesel or gasoline. Do you think Russians paid for this? To pay military personell, the army needed cash. Do you think the Russians helped us? To maintain peace in Uganda for more than 2 years, the army needed financial resources. Do you think the Russian paid the bill?

If you exermine that war in its entiretly, you would find out that there were more to it than military hardware from the USSR.

Zakumi,

Every war has costs, the question whether Mwl. Nyerere did right thing or not depends on the nature of the war in question; I do I agree that the money could have been used in development projects; but did Mwl. Nyerere was left with any other choice to abort the war? Idd Amin troops were already in the land of Tanzania killing innocent women and children; Mwl Nyerere was caught off guard; nobody expected Idd Amin will do such horrific act. And to prove himself how stupid he was he declared that Kagera then Ziwa Magharibi will part of Uganda; he was confident because he had the best weapons which were supplied by Libya.

We did get generous help from Russia in terms of cash; oil and military equipments as matter of facts without them the war would have been tough for us; I do not agree and never will with those who using Kagera war as the cause of the economic hardship facing Tanzanians now; We did pay the price of the war I still remember those days when you have to struggle just for basic things like sukari and mchele. It shame that some people have special agenda instead of telling Tanzanians the real cause of hardship they keep using Mwalimu Nyerere as the scapegoat. Mwalim Nyerere will prevail any attempt to destroy his image will never succeed. How old are you?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[mpinga shetani]

Hivi mzee Jumanne Malecela amerudia ukristo au bado ni muislamu, dini aliyoivaa katika tamaa yake ya urais kwa ufadhili wa waarabu.
Nadhani hili ndilo la kujadili hapa.

Mtu anauza utu wake kwa mabedui kisa tu aingie ikulu.

na Mungu si Athumani au Jumanne angalia sasa mtoto kawa baharia... kazi za waarabu hizi. Si mnamkumbuka Sindbad?

 

[chama]

dah! Kupitia huu Uzi nimejifunza mengi saaaana! Sasa naanza kumwamini mwalimu wangu aw History A level mwaka 2000-2002 Ambaye kila siku akiingia class alikuwa anasema Nyerere was selfish, incompetent na asiyeambilika. Wadau endeleeni kumwaga data na Kama kuna watu wataelezea vizuri habari za villagelization ntafurahi sana kuliko kumpa Mtu sifa ambazo alikuwa hastahili mwaka 1999 tulizuiwa hata kufanya graduation za kuhitimu o level eti tukio kwenye maombolezo ya Baba aw Taifa kumbe baba mwenyewe mbinafsi

Haya ndio matatizo ya kufundishwa na walimu wanaokunywa pombe za kienyeji rudi tena kwa mwalimu muulize mbinafsi ni yule ambaye amafanya kazi yake bila kujitarisha au hawa ambao tuwapa dhamana na ofisi zao kujitarisha na kuwaacha watanzania wengi kwenye umasikini uliokithiri?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Kichuguu]

dah! Kupitia huu Uzi nimejifunza mengi saaaana! Sasa naanza kumwamini mwalimu wangu aw History A level mwaka 2000-2002 Ambaye kila siku akiingia class alikuwa anasema Nyerere was selfish, incompetent na asiyeambilika. Wadau endeleeni kumwaga data na Kama kuna watu wataelezea vizuri habari za villagelization ntafurahi sana kuliko kumpa Mtu sifa ambazo alikuwa hastahili mwaka 1999 tulizuiwa hata kufanya graduation za kuhitimu o level eti tukio kwenye maombolezo ya Baba aw Taifa kumbe baba mwenyewe mbinafsi

Ndiyo maana elimu ya shuleni hapa Tanzania imekuwa haina maana tena kwani iwapo kweli waalimu wenyewe ni hao wanaofundisha mambo ya makto tu bila kuwafundisha vijana kuwa analytical ndio wanaosababisha hata vijana wetu wawe wanapenda mambo ya mkato tu.

Miaka ya mwishoni ya uhai wake, Nyerere alizuwia watu kadhaa wasiupate uraisi wa nchi kutoka na rekodi zao alizokuwa anazijua. Watu hao wamekuwa waendesha kampeini wakubwa sana wa kumpinga Nyerere baada ya kufa. Mwalimu wako inawezekana alikuwa ni mmoja wa wafuasi wa watu hao.

 

[Pukudu]

Huu uzi umenifunza mambo mengi sana

sio wewe hata mi nimejifunza mengi saana, ila nimeugundua Kuwa negative side Nyerere inafichwa sana Sijui kwa nini but he also a failure in some areas

 

[Zakumi]

Zakumi,

Every war has costs, the question whether Mwl. Nyerere did right thing or not depends on the nature of the war in question; I do I agree that the money could have been used in development projects; but did Mwl. Nyerere was left with any other choice to abort the war? Idd Amin troops were already in the land of Tanzania killing innocent women and children; Mwl Nyerere was caught off guard; nobody expected Idd Amin will do such horrific act. And to prove himself how stupid he was he declared that Kagera then Ziwa Magharibi will part of Uganda; he was confident because he had the best weapons which were supplied by Libya.

We did get generous help from Russia in terms of cash; oil and military equipments as matter of facts without them the war would have been tough for us; I do not agree and never will with those who using Kagera war as the cause of the economic hardship facing Tanzanians now; We did pay the price of the war I still remember those days when you have to struggle just for basic things like sukari and mchele. It shame that some people have special agenda instead of telling Tanzanians the real cause of hardship they keep using Mwalimu Nyerere as the scapegoat. Mwalim Nyerere will prevail any attempt to destroy his image will never succeed. How old are you?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

chama,

I am not here to destroy Nyerere's image or to discuss my age. I don't ask people their ages, genders, religions, or sexual orientation. So I don't see the reason why I should reveal one or more of my identies.

I have said in my previous posts that the war was justifiable. However, this doesn't mean that Tanzanians should keep quite. If I ask you the rationale for staying in Uganda for 2 more years after the war, could you provide the answer?

In your post you say Amin was better equiped than us. This sounds like a propaganda to me. In 70s the military spending in Tanzania was higher because we fought proxy wars to liberate Mozambique and other Southern countries. So we weren't far behind. Besides we had combat experience and the odds of winning the war was in our favour.

In economic arena, the war precipitated the rapid fall of Ujamaa policies. The Kagera and Uganda war wasn't a war of attrition. Therefore, Tanzania should have experienced a robust and quick recovery of economic activities. But those activities didn't happen and the country experienced the downward spiral of the economy for many years.

 

[Jasusi]

chama,

I am not here to destroy Nyerere's image or to discuss my age. I don't ask people their ages, genders, religions, or sexual orientation. So I don't see the reason why I should reveal one or more of my identies.

I have said in my previous posts that the war was justifiable. However, this doesn't mean that Tanzanians should keep quite. If I ask you the rationale for staying in Uganda for 2 more years after the war, could you provide the answer?

In your post you say Amin was better equiped than us. This sounds like a propaganda to me. In 70s the military spending in Tanzania was higher because we fought proxy wars to liberate Mozambique and other Southern countries. So we weren't far behind. Besides we had combat experience and the odds of winning the war was in our favour.

In economic arena, the war precipitated the rapid fall of Ujamaa policies. The Kagera and Uganda war wasn't a war of attrition. Therefore, Tanzania should have experienced a robust and quick recovery of economic activities. But those activities didn't happen and the country experienced the downward spiral of the economy for many years.

Zakumi,

Let me help our friend Chama in one aspect. It is true that Amin's army was better equipped. But his army was basically mechanized. That meant the vifarus had to go on tarmac while our infantry was on foot and could fight in matoke farms.

Actually that is what happened to the Libyans. While they depended on tarmac roads we were able to ambush them from the bushes. Most of the military equipments brought in by Libyans were captured by us.

 

[Safari_ni_Safari]