Bob Marley aliamini Mungu kweli?

[Tiger]

Mungu ni mazingaombwe yanayotumiwa na wajanja kuwateka akili na kuwaweka wengine kwenye mstari wanaoutaka wao.

Mungu ni matumaini kwa mtu asiyejua lakini anayetaka kujifariji.

Mungu ni deal la mwenye kutaka mali kwa kutumia utamaduni wa kukubali mapokeo bila maswali.

Mungu ni sheria ya mwisho iliyowekwa na binadamu bila ya kuwa na uhakika.

Mungu ni imani ambayo ingawa wengi wanajua ina mapungufu, hawana ujasiri wa kuikana kwa sababu imejengwa na insurance policies nyingi za mioto, kufuru, laana, tamaduni etc.

Mungu (kuwepo kwake) ni uongo mkubwa kabisa usioweza kuthibitishwa kuwa kweli.

Mungu ni njia ya watawala kuendeleza tawala zao tangu enzi za kabla ya Gilgamesh, Mafirauni, wafalme wa Uchina ya kale mpaka George Bush, Barack Obama, Ahmadinejad na House of Saud.

Mungu ni uongo mzuri usioushinda ukweli mbaya.

Mungu ni meli ya Titanic, kabla hujamtest kiundani anaonekana hazami, ukimuweka katika bahari ya majaribu anaonekana kuzama kwa mitobo katika kinga zake inayoingiza maji ya bahari ya utafiti.

umetisha.

 

[Tiger]

Mungu ni mazingaombwe yanayotumiwa na wajanja kuwateka akili na kuwaweka wengine kwenye mstari wanaoutaka wao.

Mungu ni matumaini kwa mtu asiyejua lakini anayetaka kujifariji.

Mungu ni deal la mwenye kutaka mali kwa kutumia utamaduni wa kukubali mapokeo bila maswali.

Mungu ni sheria ya mwisho iliyowekwa na binadamu bila ya kuwa na uhakika.

Mungu ni imani ambayo ingawa wengi wanajua ina mapungufu, hawana ujasiri wa kuikana kwa sababu imejengwa na insurance policies nyingi za mioto, kufuru, laana, tamaduni etc.

Mungu (kuwepo kwake) ni uongo mkubwa kabisa usioweza kuthibitishwa kuwa kweli.

Mungu ni njia ya watawala kuendeleza tawala zao tangu enzi za kabla ya Gilgamesh, Mafirauni, wafalme wa Uchina ya kale mpaka George Bush, Barack Obama, Ahmadinejad na House of Saud.

Mungu ni uongo mzuri usioushinda ukweli mbaya.

Mungu ni meli ya Titanic, kabla hujamtest kiundani anaonekana hazami, ukimuweka katika bahari ya majaribu anaonekana kuzama kwa mitobo katika kinga zake inayoingiza maji ya bahari ya utafiti.

(just to get your perception) have you ever think that there could be a certain unique & supreme power(natural) that governs every thing?

 

[Al Zagawi]

with all due respect mkuu..

kwani mungu ni nini, ni nani, anaishi wapi, ni mwanamke au mwanaume, ni mzungu/mwarabu/muwajemi/mchina/mkorea/mweusi/mweupe.

je ni mrefu, mfupi, mweusi, maji ya kunde, mweupe.....ana nywele ndefu au kipilipili kama changu???

maswali ni mengi na kupata majibu sensible ni ngumu...no wonder wazungu walio wengi wameachana na habari za mungu lakini wanaongoza kwa wema na uadilifu kuliko huku kwetu ambako watu wanakaa safu za mbele katika majumba ya ibada lakini ndiyo wanaongoza kwa kila aina ya UBAZAZI...kiongozi wa dini ni BAZAZI na waumini pia ni MABAZAZI na kama hawajafikia katika ubazazi wa vitendo basi wanawaza na kumuomba huyo mungu ni lini nao watapata nafasi wafanye UBAZAZI wao.

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga labda utusaidie huyo Mungu unayemtaja kama Bob anamuamini ni Mungu yupi haswa?
maana naona unaruka ruka sana

Mbona nishamtaja, nimeongelea euphemism ya kuunganisha mambo kama "justice" "righteousness" na vingine kama hivyo kama mungu, kwa upande mmoja, nikamleta mpaka kwenye expediency na kusema inawezekana Bob aliamini katika biashara na kuji advance mwenyewe kwa upande mwingine.

Hata Buddha alipopewa uchaguzi wa kuji advance mwenyewe na kuiweka dunia mbele alichagua kuji advance mwenyewe. Kama uko na watu wako so behind there is nothing wrong with self advancement if you have the right agenda.

Kwa hiyo si ajabu kuona Bob ana embrace Rastafarianism na kum tout Selassie wakati kwa kweli haamini kwamba Selassie ni mtume wala nini, anataka watu weusi wajithamini na kuacha kuabudu weupe tu.

Sasa mtu kama huyo utasema anaamini Selassie ni mungu kweli?

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Huwezi kusema outright kuwa mungu hayupo kwa vile tu wale wanaoamini kuwa mungu yupo wanashindwa kutoa ushahidi ulio wa kuridhisha na wenye kuhitimisha kuwa kwamba kweli yupo.

Kushindwa kwao kutoa huo ushahidi hakumaanishi kuwa mungu hayupo. Inawezekana kabisa akawa yupo na kwamba tu wao hawajajua yuko wapi na ndiyo maana wanashindwa kutoa ushahidi wa kuridhisha.

Ama inawezekana kweli hayupo. Na kama kweli kitu hakipo basi hakuna anayeweza kutoa ushahidi kuwa kweli kipo.

Kusema outright kwamba hayupo ni kusema kuwa wewe unajua kweli kuwa hayupo.

Sasa kama unajua kuwa hayupo, wewe umejuaje?

 

[Kiranga]

Huwezi kusema outright kuwa mungu hayupo kwa vile tu wale wanaoamini kuwa mungu yupo wanashindwa kutoa ushahidi ulio wa kuridhisha na wenye kuhitimisha kuwa kwamba kweli yupo.

Kushindwa kwao kutoa huo ushahidi hakumaanishi kuwa mungu hayupo. Inawezekana kabisa akawa yupo na kwamba tu wao hawajajua yuko wapi na ndiyo maana wanashindwa kutoa ushahidi wa kuridhisha.

Ama inawezekana kweli hayupo. Na kama kweli kitu hakipo basi hakuna anayeweza kutoa ushahidi kuwa kweli kipo.

Kusema outright kwamba hayupo ni kusema kuwa wewe unajua kweli kuwa hayupo.

Sasa kama unajua kuwa hayupo, wewe umejuaje?

Huwezi kusema chochote outright. Hata 1 + 1 = 2 is subject to your acceptance of number theory, which is called a "theory" for a reason. It is not absolute, if it was it wouldn't be called a theory.

Chochote utakachosema kitakwenda kwa ilmu yako uliyonayo wakati huo, na kinaweza kubadilishwa na ilmu mpya.Hii ni kanuni ya msingi kabisa ya usomi. Humility.Uwezo wa kukubali kwamba naweza kuwa sijaona hili muda huu, nikaja kulijua baadaye. Waamini wanajikosesha humility hii kwa kumkubali mungu (at least in the all knowing, all powerful Abrahamic sense).

Na ilmu ya dunia aliyonayo mwanadamu kwa wakati huu hai support uwepo wa mungu.

Ni kazi ya wanaoamini kwamba mungu yupo kuonyesha kwamba yupo, ama sivyo imani yao itabaki kama ngano za mapokeo, zenye mazuri na mabaya yasiyokubali kuhabarishwa na habari za gunduzi mpya.

Kwa msomi yeyote anayejua kwamba uelewa wa binadamu umejengwa katika neurons mbongoni ambazo kama kitu chochote physical zina Planck scale limit na kwa mipaka ya quantum pertubations hatuwezi kuwa absolute, siwezi kuwa absolute hata katika kusema mungu hayupo.

Ninachofanya ni kutoa challenge kwa wanaoamini kwamba mungu yupo ili wanionyeshe wanawezaje kuamini hivyo, hata kwa principles za ku allow for convergence tu ambazo hazishuki huko kwenye kiama cha quantum pertubations na PlanckScale ambako one is nor wrong, neither right and not could very easily be wrong and right at the same time and space.

Siku nitakayogundua kwamba mawazo yangu yanayoniambia kwamba mungu aliyeumba mbingu na nchi hayupo ni potofu nitakuwa na furaha sana, kwa sababu nitamtulia mungu matatizo yote ya dunia hii, all the poverty, diseases, environmental issues, injustice etc etc yatakuwa ni responsibility yake.

Until then, ni responsibility ya binadamu.

 

[Kiranga]

(just to get your perception) have you ever think that there could be a certain unique & supreme power(natural) that governs every thing?

The word is "thought", if you want to keep the tense right in this maddeningly idiosyncratic tongue.

I thought about that.

But since it governs everything -everything mind you- how would it come about? Even if it exists forever and doesn't come about at all, it still doesn't address the fact that it exists in time. And even if it doesn't exist in time, it exists in non-time, so whatever media it is in, one has to ask, where did the media come from? Even if the media is "no-media", as in god existed in nothingness before time and space, where did the nothingness - if at all you can picture, even with Einsteins proverbial "minds eye", and find this nothingness to be credible- where did this nothingness before time and space come from? It's a set of nested Russian dolls, bound to end at some layer.

God is nested in the unreal and romantic idea of infinity. Infinity is borne out of the poverty of our minds coupld with an over eager imagination.

If there are some means of it (it being this god creature) coming about, then saying that it governs everything wouldn't be accurate.

And if there are no means of it coming about, still saying that it governs everything wouldn't be accurate.

It is easier to argue that nothing completely governs everything than to argue anything completely governs everything. By our vaults clearly.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Na ilmu ya dunia aliyonayo mwanadamu kwa wakati huu hai support uwepo wa mungu.

Ni kazi ya wanaoamini kwamba mungu yupo kuonyesha kwamba yupo, ama sivyo imani yao itabaki kama ngano za mapokeo, zenye mazuri na mabaya yasiyokubali kuhabarishwa na habari za gunduzi mpya.

Ninachofanya ni kutoa challenge kwa wanaoamini kwamba mungu yupo ili wanionyeshe wanawezaje kuamini hivyo, hata kwa principles za ku allow for convergence tu ambazo hazishuki huko kwenye kiama cha quantum pertubations na PlanckScale ambako one is nor wrong, neither right and not could very easily be wrong and right at the same time and space.

Mimi naona kikubwa ni kuchanganya kati ya ujuzi na imani.

Imani tangu lini ikaweza kuthibitishwa? Haiwezekani kuthibitisha imani maana imani ni kitu cha kufikirika tu.

Sasa kama dini ni imani, na mungu ndiyo kiini cha imani, inawezekanaje kuthibitisha uwepo wake ilhali yeye ni wa kufikirika tu? Haiwezekani.

Watu wakishajua kutofautisha kati ya imani na ujuzi nadhani huu ubishi wa uwepo wa mungu utapungua kwa kiasi kikubwa.

 

[Kiranga]

Mimi naona kikubwa ni kuchanganya kati ya ujuzi na imani.

Imani tangu lini ikaweza kuthibitishwa? Haiwezekani kuthibitisha imani maana imani ni kitu cha kufikirika tu.

Sasa kama dini ni imani, na mungu ndiyo kiini cha imani, inawezekanaje kuthibitisha uwepo wake ilhali yeye ni wa kufikirika tu? Haiwezekani.

Watu wakishajua kutofautisha kati ya imani na ujuzi nadhani huu ubishi wa uwepo wa mungu utapungua kwa kiasi kikubwa.

Ndiyo maana nikasema sitaki kuamini, nataka kujua.

Kwa sababu kama ni kuamini tu, unaweza kuamini bluu ni njano, na ukawa sawa, si imani tu?

Lakini unapoanza kusema kwamba unajua kwamba bluu ni njano, kwa sababu una ugonjwa fulani wa macho unaokufanya uone buluu kuwa njano, hapo nitakuwa na maswali mengi sana.

Ninachokiona sasa ni kwamba wengi wanaamini kwamba bluu ni njano ( kufikiri kwamba imani yao kwamba mungu yupo ni ujuzi).

Hata wasioamini kwamba mungu hayupo hawawezi kuwa na uhakika - after all you can't prove a negative- sembuse wanaoamini bila ya kuelewa tofauti ya imani na ujuzi?

 

[Viper]

I guess "man" here is used in the old fashion sense of "mankind"

Lakini swali langu halijajibiwa, waliposema "Almighty god is a living man" walimaanisha kwamba god is just a con designed by living men? Ukiangalia context kwa mstari unaofuata kuhusu "You can fool some people for some time, but you can't fool all the people all the time" na mistari ya mwanzo "Preacher man don't tell me" utaona jamaa wanasagia religion na habari ya mungu.

Au wanasema "Almighty god is a living man" kwa kum glorify mungu kwamba he is a living force, ila kiingereza kiliwapiga chenga wakashindwa kujieleza vizuri?

Kama uliangalia ile movie ya Marley..2012 utaona hawa walikuwa wakimuabudu hailesallasie Yule alitekuwa mtawala wa ethopia.. katikati ya ile documentary kuna rafiki yake bob kabla hajaojiwa aliwasha moto! Kukawa na.mti pembeni! Akasema that's fire .. and that up there is Africa!! For them Africa ilikuwa ni kama waarabu wanavoona Mecca!

 

[Kiranga]

Kama uliangalia ile movie ya Marley..2012 utaona hawa walikuwa wakimuabudu hailesallasie Yule alitekuwa mtawala wa ethopia.. katikati ya ile documentary kuna rafiki yake bob kabla hajaojiwa aliwasha moto! Kukawa na.mti pembeni! Akasema that's fire .. and that up there is Africa!! For them Africa ilikuwa ni kama waarabu wanavoona Mecca!

Right, dini. Si chochote zaidi kama wengine wanavyotaka tuamini.

 

[Hoshea]

nkielezea vyote ntajaza sana ni hivi tu simply bob hakuwa mtumiaji wa chombo chochote alikuwa soloist peter tosh ndo alimfundisha kupiga guitar and those songs mfano stir it up etc ambazo kuna sauti za kike zinaitikia wale walikuwa jamaa zake wa the wailers alivoenda US producer anaitwa chriss blackwell who was later called chriss whiteworse akamwambia toa hizo sauti weka za kike na huyo producer ndo akamshauri album iitwe bob & the wailers instead of the wailers , many many songs like zimbabwe, one love etc walishirikiana kuziandika na kuzitengeneza na hao majamaa zake, yeye akaenda zipimp US afu zikawa zake na ndo jina akapatia hapo, aliwageuka vibaya sana wenzake hata mwanae ziggy marley kwenye album yake ya wild and free wimbo nmeusahau kaliongelea hilo na kwenye mazishi hakuna member wa the wailers aliehudhuris and rumours has it dat peter tosh aliuliwa kwa risasi sababu alikuwa anafatilia hizo haki za the wailers walizodhulumiwa na bob, majority jamaicans wanajua hivyo na inaaminika hivo bcoz jamaa alikuwa mstari wa mbele sana kufatilia hiyo mambo wakaona wamnyamazishe fasta, sababu kuu ya kulivalia njuga ts due to de fact jamaa ndo alilianzisha kundi la the wailers afu financially hakuwa vizuri amongst all, kuona mtu anafaidi kwa jasho lake ndo kukamfanya ahangaike kuhangaika kukamcost, na stry kibao tu we fatilia vizuri.

 

[Tiger]

The word is "thought", if you want to keep the tense right in this maddeningly idiosyncratic tongue.

I thought about that.

But since it governs everything -everything mind you- how would it come about? Even if it exists forever and doesn't come about at all, it still doesn't address the fact that it exists in time. And even if it doesn't exist in time, it exists in non-time, so whatever media it is in, one has to ask, where did the media come from? Even if the media is "no-media", as in god existed in nothingness before time and space, where did the nothingness - if at all you can picture, even with Einsteins proverbial "minds eye", and find this nothingness to be credible- where did this nothingness before time and space come from? It's a set of nested Russian dolls, bound to end at some layer.

God is nested in the unreal and romantic idea of infinity. Infinity is borne out of the poverty of our minds coupld with an over eager imagination.

If there are some means of it (it being this god creature) coming about, then saying that it governs everything wouldn't be accurate.

And if there are no means of it coming about, still saying that it governs everything wouldn't be accurate.

It is easier to argue that nothing completely governs everything than to argue anything completely governs everything. By our vaults clearly.

Thanks for the correction.
But don't u think we have been trying to eliminate that power ambayo labda wengine wanaita mungu kwa kuiweka power hiyo kwenye standards zetu na kuanza kui-dismantle hiyo power mpaka tukaona haipo kabisa.
What if standards(current knowledge) zetu haziko sahihi au they are in different dimentions & parametors?

 

[IGWE]

nkielezea vyote ntajaza sana ni hivi tu simply bob hakuwa mtumiaji wa chombo chochote alikuwa soloist peter tosh ndo alimfundisha kupiga guitar and those songs mfano stir it up etc ambazo kuna sauti za kike zinaitikia wale walikuwa jamaa zake wa the wailers alivoenda US producer anaitwa chriss blackwell who was later called chriss whiteworse akamwambia toa hizo sauti weka za kike na huyo producer ndo akamshauri album iitwe bob & the wailers instead of the wailers , many many songs like zimbabwe, one love etc walishirikiana kuziandika na kuzitengeneza na hao majamaa zake, yeye akaenda zipimp US afu zikawa zake na ndo jina akapatia hapo, aliwageuka vibaya sana wenzake hata mwanae ziggy marley kwenye album yake ya wild and free wimbo nmeusahau kaliongelea hilo na kwenye mazishi hakuna member wa the wailers aliehudhuris and rumours has it dat peter tosh aliuliwa kwa risasi sababu alikuwa anafatilia hizo haki za the wailers walizodhulumiwa na bob, majority jamaicans wanajua hivyo na inaaminika hivo bcoz jamaa alikuwa mstari wa mbele sana kufatilia hiyo mambo wakaona wamnyamazishe fasta, sababu kuu ya kulivalia njuga ts due to de fact jamaa ndo alilianzisha kundi la the wailers afu financially hakuwa vizuri amongst all, kuona mtu anafaidi kwa jasho lake ndo kukamfanya ahangaike kuhangaika kukamcost, na stry kibao tu we fatilia vizuri.

Well said..BUT...off topic mkuu

 

[Kiranga]

Thanks for the correction.
But don't u think we have been trying to eliminate that power ambayo labda wengine wanaita mungu kwa kuiweka power hiyo kwenye standards zetu na kuanza kui-dismantle hiyo power mpaka tukaona haipo kabisa.
What if standards(current knowledge) zetu haziko sahihi au they are in different dimentions & parametors?

Don't put the cart before the horse now.

Eliminate which power? Before trying to eliminate any power, you have to establish that that power is there first.

There is no question that standards zetu (current knowledge) ina lack accuracy na ina a lot of gaps, lakini swali muhimu zaidi ya whether iko sahihi 100% (which is asymptotic anyway) ni swali kwamba, tuna converge towards an empirically verifiable point which is consistently showing to be true?

Kama kuna mungu ambaye hajulikaniki nasi empirically, tutajuaje tofauti ya ulimwengu usio na mungu na ulimwengu wenye mungu asiyejulikana empirically? In other words, how do you know that the thinking that there is a god that is unverifiable empirically is just a mistaken one, borne out of a wishful thinking for a grander universe?

Tunarudi pale pale kwenye point ya Nyani Ngabu, imani na ujuzi. Kitu ambacho hakiwezi kuwa empirically verifiable hakijulikani, ni imani tu. Kwa hiyo ni haki mtu kusema anaamini kwamba mungu yupo kama anavyoweza kusema anaamini vibwengo wapo au Santa Claus yupo. Lakini kujua -especially the unqualified version-ni kitu tofauti.

 

[Ronal Reagan]

Mie siamini mungu yeyote aliye supernatural.Hakuna mungu.

.

Samahani Kiranga, nikikunukuu hapo...je wewe ni Atheist au Agnostic? As that will help me in understanding your question.

 

[Tiger]

Don't put the cart before the horse now.

Eliminate which power? Before trying to eliminate any power, you have to establish that that power is there first.

There is no question that standards zetu (current knowledge) ina lack accuracy na ina a lot of gaps, lakini swali muhimu zaidi ya whether iko sahihi 100% (which is asymptotic anyway) ni swali kwamba, tuna converge towards an empirically verifiable point which is consistently showing to be true?

Kama kuna mungu ambaye hajulikaniki nasi empirically, tutajuaje tofauti ya ulimwengu usio na mungu na ulimwengu wenye mungu asiyejulikana empirically? In other words, how do you know that the thinking that there is a god that is unverifiable empirically is just a mistaken one, borne out of a wishful thinking for a grander universe?

Tunarudi pale pale kwenye point ya Nyani Ngabu, imani na ujuzi. Kitu ambacho hakiwezi kuwa empirically verifiable hakijulikani, ni imani tu. Kwa hiyo ni haki mtu kusema anaamini kwamba mungu yupo kama anavyoweza kusema anaamini vibwengo wapo au Santa Claus yupo. Lakini kujua -especially the unqualified version-ni kitu tofauti.

so do we have any empirical evidence suggesting that we don't have such thing as god(not necessarily religious one)

 

[Hoshea]

nkielezea vyote ntajaza sana ni hivi tu simply bob hakuwa mtumiaji wa chombo chochote alikuwa soloist peter tosh ndo alimfundisha kupiga guitar and those songs mfano stir it up etc ambazo kuna sauti za kike zinaitikia wale walikuwa jamaa zake wa the wailers alivoenda US producer anaitwa chriss blackwell who was later called chriss whiteworse akamwambia toa hizo sauti weka za kike na huyo producer ndo akamshauri album iitwe bob & the wailers instead of the wailers , many many songs like zimbabwe, one love etc walishirikiana kuziandika na kuzitengeneza na hao majamaa zake, yeye akaenda zipimp US afu zikawa zake na ndo jina akapatia hapo, aliwageuka vibaya sana wenzake hata mwanae ziggy marley kwenye album yake ya wild and free wimbo nmeusahau kaliongelea hilo na kwenye mazishi hakuna member wa the wailers aliehudhuris and rumours has it dat peter tosh aliuliwa kwa risasi sababu alikuwa anafatilia hizo haki za the wailers walizodhulumiwa na bob, majority jamaicans wanajua hivyo na inaaminika hivo bcoz jamaa alikuwa mstari wa mbele sana kufatilia hiyo mambo wakaona wamnyamazishe fasta, sababu kuu ya kulivalia njuga ts due to de fact jamaa ndo alilianzisha kundi la the wailers afu financially hakuwa vizuri amongst all, kuona mtu anafaidi kwa jasho lake ndo kukamfanya ahangaike kuhangaika kukamcost, na stry kibao tu we fatilia vizuri.

 

[Hayajamani]

Na ma Cowboy nao hawapo nyuma:

I don't believe in superstars,
Organic food and foreign cars.
I don't believe the price of gold;
The certainty of growing old.
That right is right and left is wrong,
That north and south can't get along.
That east is east and west is west.
And being first is always best.

But I believe in love.
I believe in babies.
I believe in Mom and Dad.
And I believe in you.

Well, I don't believe that heaven waits,
For only those who congregate.
I like to think of God as love:
He's down below, He's up above.
He's watching people everywhere.
He knows who does and doesn't care.
And I'm an ordinary man,
Sometimes I wonder who I am.

But I believe in love.
I believe in music.
I believe in magic.
And I believe in you.

I know with all my certainty,
What's going on with you and me,
Is a good thing.
It's true, I believe in you.

I don't believe virginity,
Is as common as it used to be.
In working days and sleeping nights,
That black is black and white is white.
That Superman and Robin Hood,
Are still alive in Hollywood.
That gasoline's in short supply,
The rising cost of getting by.

But I believe in love.
I believe in old folks.
I believe in children.
I believe in you.

I believe in love.
I believe in babies.
I believe in Mom and Dad.
And I believe in you.

 

[Hoshea]

nilikuwa namjibu kiranga