Vita vya Kagera: Nini chanzo? Kulikuwa na ulazima?

[Waberoya]

Chama, labda nikujulishe..nampenda Nyerere kuliko nyie wote...na hata kesho , he is my best president ever in this planet. Lakini nitasema ubaya wake na uzuri wake nitauimba....simply because there was not, there is not, there will be not any perfect leader in this planet. However, when I weigh btn love and logic.. I choose logic

 

[Waberoya]

Kwa sababu umeamua kujifumba macho ili usione naomba kumalizia kwa kusema kwamba, Cha msingi ni Kwamba alichokitaka Mwalimu kuwa kilikuwa, Idd Amin Aliondoka Kampala, Full Stop na baada ya hapo kama ni kweli baadhi yenu mnavyosema humu ndani kwamba alikuwa anasukumwa na dhamira ya kidini, basi pia ikawa hivyo chokochoko za viongozi au mataifa yanayoongozwa na viongozi wenye msimamo wa kiislamu nazo officially alizizima.

Dhana ya udini si kweli!!!

 

[chama]

Chama, labda nikujulishe..nampenda Nyerere kuliko nyie wote...na hata kesho , he is my best president ever in this planet. Lakini nitasema ubaya wake na uzuri wake nitauimba....simply because there was not, there is not, there will be not any perfect leader in this planet. However, when I weigh btn love and logic.. I choose logic

Waberoya;
Kwanza nataka nikuwekee wazi hapa hatushindani, binafsi siongelei love wala logic hapa tunataka facts; nilikuuliza umeisoma link uliyotuwekea? Labda niongezee umekielewa kilichoandikwa kwenye ule utafiti? Nimekuomba uonyeshe ovu moja kuu lililofanywa na Mw. Nyerere ili tujadili udikteta wake umeshindwa. Unapojaribu kutaka kumtetea Amin eti hakuwa dikteta tuletee ushahidi tuujadili; umekuja na hoja ya kutaka kudai Tanzania ndio tuliosababisha vita link uliyoweka inasema wazi Amin ndiye aliyeivamia Tanzania; kwenye utafiti huo unaonyesha Mwl. Nyerere hakuafiki vita dhidi ya Amin labda nitakubaliana na wewe iwapo utasema hukiamini kilichoandikwa kwenye utafiti ule. Nilishawahi kusema Mwl. Nyerere hakuwa malaika na yeye binafsi alishakiri hilo; umenifurahisha sana kwenye love na logic; naona kwa Idd Amin umeamua kutumia Love. Naona umeamu kumuingiza; Obote na Museveni; kwanza tumalize hili la Mwl. Nyerere na Idd Amin Dada; tukishalimaliza tutamjadili Obote na Museveni.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[JokaKuu]

Mwambie huyu mheshimiwa au ndugu asome hii hapa pia.




Hii imetoka kitabu hiki: David Lamb, The Africans (Methuen, London: 1985) pp.77-92.


Kuna analytical articles zinazoongelea vita ile bila upendeleo. Inaonyesha wapi majeshi ya Tanzania yalipokosea huko Uganda na ni kwa nini yalikosea; lakini hakuna analysis yoyote inayoonyesha kuwa Vita ilifanyika ili Obote arudishwe madarakani; hiyo ilikuwa ni matokeo ya vita tu. Mojawapo ya article hizo ni hii hapa:The Tanzanian Invasion of Uganda: A Just War?

Chazo cha thread hii kinaweza kuwa kimechochewa na ukweli kuwa mzee Malecela aliyekuwa waziri wa mambo ye nje wa Tanzania kati ya mwaka 1972 hadi mwaka 1973 alisaini ule mkataba wa "Mogadishu Accord" kwa niaba ya Tanzania ili kuondoa uhasam baina ya Tanzania na Uganda. Alisaini mktaba ule kama waziri wa mambo ya nje wa Tanzania pamoja na Wanume Kibedi kama Waziri wa mambo ya nje wa Uganda, na kuthibitishwa na Omar Arteh Ghaleb aliyekuwa waziri anayehusika na mambo ya nje ya Somalia. Kwa bahati mbaya, watu wa mzee Malecela hudai kuwa alimua kusaini mkataba huo yeye mwenyewe bila kumshirikisha Nyerere, na huenda ndiyo chanzo cha thread hii. Kuna sababu za kutosha kuwa Malecela asingefanya hivyo kwa vile angekuwa amejimaliza kisiasa kabisa kwa kuwa iwapo Nyerere angesema amewasaliti wa Watanzania wakati huo wa chama kimoja na kutokana na ukweli kuwa kuwa kuna sehemu za Mwanza na Kagera zilizokuwa zimeshpigwa mabomu na Amini.

Hizi propaganda dhidi ya Nyerere ni mambo ya kupita tu kwani historia ni msema kweli siku zote; unaweza kuipindisha lakini itajionyoosha yenyewe.

Kichuguu,

..Thank u!!

..moja ya reference uliyoileta inasema kulikuwa na rumours kwamba Kambona anataka kushirikiana na Amini kumpindua Nyerere!!

..kuna sehemu wanadai Nyerere na Siad Barre waliandaa mpango wa kumsaidia Obote kumpindua Amin, only to be discouraged by the Chinese, na Nyerere kuogopa kwamba Waisraeli na Waingereza wangeingilia upande wa Amin.

..pia nadhani hoja ya UDINI inazidi kukosa nguvu kwasababu kwanza Amini alikuwa replaced na Yussuf Lule ambaye ni Muislamu. Pia ushiriki wa Siad Barre kutaka kumpindua Amini unaonyesha kwamba his removal was not a church project.

..Zaidi, wanaoleta hoja ya UDINI wana-assume kwamba Milton Obote alikuwa ni Mkatoliki kama Nyerere kitu ambacho si kweli. Obote was an Anglican, na wakati wa utawala wake alikuwa na uhasama mkubwa sana na Kanisa Katoliki ambalo lina waumini wengi ktk kabila la Baganda adui mkubwa wa Obote.

..Pia kuna article inaeleza kwamba Obote alihusika ktk kuwa-promote Wa-Anglican na Waislamu wa Uganda ktk masuala ya ujenzi wa mashule ili kuvunja monopoly ya Wakatoliki ktk sekta ya elimu Uganda. Pamoja na hayo Obote analaumiwa kwa kuyachonganisha makundi mbalimbali ya Waislamu wa Uganda.

 

[Waberoya]

Waberoya;
Kwanza nataka nikuwekee wazi hapa hatushindani, binafsi siongelei love wala logic hapa tunataka facts; nilikuuliza umeisoma link uliyotuwekea? Labda niongezee umekielewa kilichoandikwa kwenye ule utafiti? Nimekuomba uonyeshe ovu moja kuu lililofanywa na Mw. Nyerere ili tujadili udikteta wake umeshindwa. Unapojaribu kutaka kumtetea Amin eti hakuwa dikteta tuletee ushahidi tuujadili; umekuja na hoja ya kutaka kudai Tanzania ndio tuliosababisha vita link uliyoweka inasema wazi Amin ndiye aliyeivamia Tanzania; kwenye utafiti huo unaonyesha Mwl. Nyerere hakuafiki vita dhidi ya Amin labda nitakubaliana na wewe iwapo utasema hukiamini kilichoandikwa kwenye utafiti ule. Nilishawahi kusema Mwl. Nyerere hakuwa malaika na yeye binafsi alishakiri hilo; umenifurahisha sana kwenye love na logic; naona kwa Idd Amin umeamua kutumia Love. Naona umeamu kumuingiza; Obote na Museveni; kwanza tumalize hili la Mwl. Nyerere na Idd Amin Dada; tukishalimaliza tutamjadili Obote na Museveni.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

ebu nieleweshe mkuu, unataka nikuonyeshe nyerere ni dictator kutoka kwenye ile link?

na kama ile link haijasema kwa hiyo siyo dictator? au unaniruhusu niuseme udikteta wa nyerere kutoka nje ya link??

 

[chama]

ebu nieleweshe mkuu, unataka nikuonyeshe nyerere ni dictator kutoka kwenye ile link?

na kama ile link haijasema kwa hiyo siyo dictator? au unaniruhusu niuseme udikteta wa nyerere kutoka nje ya link??

Waberoya;
Tuelewane kitu kimoja tunachojadili hapa ni nani alianzisha vita, pili tukajadili suala la Dikteta Idd Amin nilisema alikuwa ni muuaji na raia zake hawakumpenda bali walitawaliwa na hofu; wewe ulichodai ni Amin hakuwa dikteta na raia walimpenda; nimekuwekea posti hiyo ya matukio ya mauji; wewe njoo na link yoyote ile kuhusu udikteta wa Mwl. Nyerere uhakika wa nani alianzisha vita umeshaupata kwenye link yako; uligusia suala la mixed motives hata hilo tunaweza kulijadili je mixed motives ilikuwa ni kabla ya uvamizi wa Idd Amin au baada ya uvamizi. Nakumbushia hapa hatujadili logic tunaongelea facts; na kama kweli Mwl. Nyerere alikuwa dikteta siamini kama wewe ungeihitaji link ya kuthibitisha udikteta wake; wewe sio mkenya au mnigeria matukio yote yaliyotokea Tanzania unayajua; ulichopaswa kusema ni kuyaweka hadharani. Lakini kwa sababu huna hoja ya kuthibitisha udikteta wa Mwl. Nyerere nakuruhusu tumia hizo links.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Zakumi]

Kichuguu,

..Thank u!!

..moja ya reference uliyoileta inasema kulikuwa na rumours kwamba Kambona anataka kushirikiana na Amini kumpindua Nyerere!!

..kuna sehemu wanadai Nyerere na Siad Barre waliandaa mpango wa kumsaidia Obote kumpindua Amin, only to be discouraged by the Chinese, na Nyerere kuogopa kwamba Waisraeli na Waingereza wangeingilia upande wa Amin.

..pia nadhani hoja ya UDINI inazidi kukosa nguvu kwasababu kwanza Amini alikuwa replaced na Yussuf Lule ambaye ni Muislamu. Pia ushiriki wa Siad Barre kutaka kumpindua Amini unaonyesha kwamba his removal was not a church project.

..Zaidi, wanaoleta hoja ya UDINI wana-assume kwamba Milton Obote alikuwa ni Mkatoliki kama Nyerere kitu ambacho si kweli. Obote was an Anglican, na wakati wa utawala wake alikuwa na uhasama mkubwa sana na Kanisa Katoliki ambalo lina waumini wengi ktk kabila la Baganda adui mkubwa wa Obote.

..Pia kuna article inaeleza kwamba Obote alihusika ktk kuwa-promote Wa-Anglican na Waislamu wa Uganda ktk masuala ya ujenzi wa mashule ili kuvunja monopoly ya Wakatoliki ktk sekta ya elimu Uganda. Pamoja na hayo Obote analaumiwa kwa kuyachonganisha makundi mbalimbali ya Waislamu wa Uganda.

JK,

Katika nchi za Rwanda, Burundi na Uganda, dynamics za ukabila zina-transcend dynamic za dini. Askari wengi wa Iddi Amin walikuwa ni watu wa kabila lake kwanza na wale wa wenye asili ya Sudan ya kusini. Wengi wao sio Waislamu.

Askofu wa Katoliki nchini Uganda, kama alikuwa mganda, kwanza alionekana kama askofu wa waganda na baadaye wa wakatoliki wengine.

Wapo na walikuwepo Baganda waislamu, kama vile Prof. Lule. Na wao walionekana wapo karibu na kabila lao kuliko waganda wengine.

Idd Amin alikuwa Mwislamu. Lakini alikuwa kuukumbuka uislamu akiwa mtawala. Katika miaka ya 70s kuna viongozi wa Africa walijitangaza kuwa wajamaa hili kupata misaada kutoka nchi za kijamaa. Na wengine waliojitangaza kuwa ni mabepari hili kupata misaada kutoka katika nchi za kibepari.

Na kuna viongozi wa kiAfrika waliounga mkono mapambano ya waPalestina au kutangaza uislamu wao hili kupita misaada kutoka nchi za Kiarabu. Bokasa (A.K.A Salah Eddine Ahmed Bokassa) alibadili dini na kuwa muislam hili apate misaada kutoka nchi za kiarabu.

Kama Amin alikuwa ni mwislamu wa kweli basi asingewafukuza waAsia. Kwani miongoni mwao kulikuwemo na waislamu. Namfahamu mjemeni aliyechanganya damu na mganda aliyekimbia nchi.

Obote hakuwachukia waKatoliki. Obote alikuwa nationalist na mke wake alikuwa ni mtu kutoka kabila la Baganda. Kilichofanya Obote awe na migogoro na wakatoliki ni majaribio yake ya kuvunja tasisi za baganda ambao wengi wao ni wakatoliki.

 

[Waberoya]

Waberoya;
Tuelewane kitu kimoja tunachojadili hapa ni nani alianzisha vita, pili tukajadili suala la Dikteta Idd Amin nilisema alikuwa ni muuaji na raia zake hawakumpenda bali walitawaliwa na hofu; wewe ulichodai ni Amin hakuwa dikteta na raia walimpenda; nimekuwekea posti hiyo ya matukio ya mauji; wewe njoo na link yoyote ile kuhusu udikteta wa Mwl. Nyerere uhakika wa nani alianzisha vita umeshaupata kwenye link yako; uligusia suala la mixed motives hata hilo tunaweza kulijadili je mixed motives ilikuwa ni kabla ya uvamizi wa Idd Amin au baada ya uvamizi. Nakumbushia hapa hatujadili logic tunaongelea facts; na kama kweli Mwl. Nyerere alikuwa dikteta siamini kama wewe ungeihitaji link ya kuthibitisha udikteta wake; wewe sio mkenya au mnigeria matukio yote yaliyotokea Tanzania unayajua; ulichopaswa kusema ni kuyaweka hadharani. Lakini kwa sababu huna hoja ya kuthibitisha udikteta wa Mwl. Nyerere nakuruhusu tumia hizo links.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

sawa sawa mkuu nimekuelewa kabisa

 

[Zakumi]

Waberoya;
Tuelewane kitu kimoja tunachojadili hapa ni nani alianzisha vita, pili tukajadili suala la Dikteta Idd Amin nilisema alikuwa ni muuaji na raia zake hawakumpenda bali walitawaliwa na hofu; wewe ulichodai ni Amin hakuwa dikteta na raia walimpenda; nimekuwekea posti hiyo ya matukio ya mauji; wewe njoo na link yoyote ile kuhusu udikteta wa Mwl. Nyerere uhakika wa nani alianzisha vita umeshaupata kwenye link yako; uligusia suala la mixed motives hata hilo tunaweza kulijadili je mixed motives ilikuwa ni kabla ya uvamizi wa Idd Amin au baada ya uvamizi. Nakumbushia hapa hatujadili logic tunaongelea facts; na kama kweli Mwl. Nyerere alikuwa dikteta siamini kama wewe ungeihitaji link ya kuthibitisha udikteta wake; wewe sio mkenya au mnigeria matukio yote yaliyotokea Tanzania unayajua; ulichopaswa kusema ni kuyaweka hadharani. Lakini kwa sababu huna hoja ya kuthibitisha udikteta wa Mwl. Nyerere nakuruhusu tumia hizo links.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,

In one of your last posts, you have brought many online references about the war, most of them from Ugandan sources. As you can see sir, since Iddi Amin was still in power, Ugandans have always expressed themselves. They have alyways explored their own experience and moved on.

On the contrary, we, Tanzanians, don't have that attitude. For example, when we talk about Nyerere or this war, we always want to stick on the same wavelength. Do we have the same experience? Off course not. If somebody call Nyerere a dictator, he doesn't mean that Nyerere was in the same league with Idd Amin.

You don't need to kill people to be a dictator.

 

[JokaKuu]

JK,

Katika nchi za Rwanda, Burundi na Uganda, dynamics za ukabila zina-transcend dynamic za dini. Askari wengi wa Iddi Amin walikuwa ni watu wa kabila lake kwanza na wale wa wenye asili ya Sudan ya kusini. Wengi wao sio Waislamu.

Askofu wa Katoliki nchini Uganda, kama alikuwa mganda, kwanza alionekana kama askofu wa waganda na baadaye wa wakatoliki wengine.

Wapo na walikuwepo Baganda waislamu, kama vile Prof. Lule. Na wao walionekana wapo karibu na kabila lao kuliko waganda wengine.

Idd Amin alikuwa Mwislamu. Lakini alikuwa kuukumbuka uislamu akiwa mtawala. Katika miaka ya 70s kuna viongozi wa Africa walijitangaza kuwa wajamaa hili kupata misaada kutoka nchi za kijamaa. Na wengine waliojitangaza kuwa ni mabepari hili kupata misaada kutoka katika nchi za kibepari.

Na kuna viongozi wa kiAfrika waliounga mkono mapambano ya waPalestina au kutangaza uislamu wao hili kupita misaada kutoka nchi za Kiarabu. Bokasa (A.K.A Salah Eddine Ahmed Bokassa) alibadili dini na kuwa muislam hili apate misaada kutoka nchi za kiarabu.

Kama Amin alikuwa ni mwislamu wa kweli basi asingewafukuza waAsia. Kwani miongoni mwao kulikuwemo na waislamu. Namfahamu mjemeni aliyechanganya damu na mganda aliyekimbia nchi.

Obote hakuwachukia waKatoliki. Obote alikuwa nationalist na mke wake alikuwa ni mtu kutoka kabila la Baganda. Kilichofanya Obote awe na migogoro na wakatoliki ni majaribio yake ya kuvunja tasisi za baganda ambao wengi wao ni wakatoliki.

Zakumi,

..asante kwa uchambuzi wako.

..lakini kuna kikundi cha Waislamu hapa Tanzania wamesoma hitma kwa ajili ya Iddi Amini.

..kikundi hicho kimekuwa kikieneza propaganda kwamba vita vya Uganda na Biafra was nothing but Catholic crusades against Islam.

..sasa katika kuangalia facts tumekuta kwamba Yussuf Lule ndiye aliyeshika hatamu baada ya Alhaji Iddi Amini. Zaidi tumekuta kwamba Obote siyo Mkatoliki, na juu ya hilo alikuwa na mahusiano mabaya na Wakatoliki wa Uganda.

NB:

..ni nakubaliana na wewe kuhusu Obote kuvunja taasisi za Baganda ambao majority ni Wakatoliki.

..pamoja na hayo, yapo madai kwamba Obote alishiriki kuvunja domination ya Wakatoliki ktk sekta ya elimu kwa kuwapa nguvu zaidi Waanglikani na Waislamu.

 

[chama]

Chama,

In one of your last posts, you have brought many online references about the war, most of them from Ugandan sources. As you can see sir, since Iddi Amin was still in power, Ugandans have always expressed themselves. They have alyways explored their own experience and moved on.

On the contrary, we, Tanzanians, don't have that attitude. For example, when we talk about Nyerere or this war, we always want to stick on the same wavelength. Do we have the same experience? Off course not. If somebody call Nyerere a dictator, he doesn't mean that Nyerere was in the same league with Idd Amin.

You don't need to kill people to be a dictator.

Zakumi,
I do agree with you in one thing that as Tanzanians we should move on; Mwl. Nyerere is no more; only thing he left is his legacy; it`s personal matter whether you wish to cherish his legacy or not; Mwl. Nyerere was not messiah he admitted his failure; but where he did good we need at least to appreciate his work; I don`t understand those who use him for economic hardship facing Tanzanians; the man set very good example, he never abuse the office of president; there is no question that our politicians failed us due to massive corruptions; they neither have clear solution nor explanation for our economic problems. Mwl. Nyerere was serious at his responsibilities, he served us with one heart, let the man rest in peace. Zakumi you can google anywhere get the best definition of dictator but the major element of dictator is killings. You will never find a dictator who sing taarab to his people, all of them have one thing in common killing innocent people.
Peace!!!

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Zakumi]

Zakumi,
I do agree with you in one thing that as Tanzanians we should move on; Mwl. Nyerere in no more; only thing he left is his legacy; it`s personal matter whether you wish to cherish his legacy or not; Mwl. Nyerere was not messiah he admitted his failure; but where he did good we need at least to appreciate his work; I don`t understand those who use him for economic hardship facing Tanzanians; the man set very good example, he never abuse the office of president; there is no question that our politicians failed us due to massive corruptions; they neither have clear solution nor explanation for our economic problems. Mwl. Nyerere was serious at his responsibilities, he served us with one heart, let the man rest in peace. Zakumi you can google anywhere get the best definition of dictator but the major element of dictator is killings. You will never find a dictator who sing taarab to his people, all of them have one thing in common killing innocent people.
Peace!!!

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,

I do blame Nyerere for economic hardship facing Tanzanians today. People aren't born leaders. They are deliberately prepared to become leaders and top performers. For example, after failed coup of 1964, Nyerere deliberately prepared the Tanzanian Defence forces to become one of the best fighting machines in the region.

Economically and politically he didn't take the same approach. He was very happy to be sorrounded with mediocre technocrats and politicians who took order and paid lip service.

 

[reandle]

Haya Nipe Uthibitisho kuwa Tanzania na Majeshi ya Obote ndio yaliyoanza Uchokozi kwanza na Sio Uganda. Mimi nitakuhakikishia toka kwa Habari toka USA na UK na nchi zote zilikuwa hazimpendi Nyerere kwanza...

If i decide to create blocks of JF members, then i've no doubt kwamba nngu007 nitakuweka kwenye block ya members ambao hawawezi kuwa na ushahidi wa kile wanachokitetea halafu wakashindwa kuuweka in advance......i've no doubt! Sitaki sio tu kuamini, bali hata kufikiria kwamba nngu007 unaweza kuwa na ki2 tangible na bado usikiweke hapa hadi uchokozwe....kutokana na imani yangu hiyo, ndiyo maana napata kiburi kwamba huna cha ushahidi wala nini, kama unao ambao unaelezea pasipo na shaka yoyote kwamba ni Amin na majeshi yake ndio walianza uchokozi, then mwaga hapa jamvini ili nami niongezee ufahamu wangu!!! Kinyume chake, nitachukulia mithili ya mtindo wa huku kwe2 uswahilini...jamaa unakuta anakupiga bonge la mkwara; UNANIJUA MIMI...?! Usipowajulia watu hawa, unaweza kuishia kunywea mithili ya kinda la ndege lililonyeshewa mvua!! Lakini kwa akina sie, ambao tumezaliwa na kukulia huku, jibu letu linakuwa rahisi tu...NA WEWE UNANIJUA MIMI?!

 

[Mkandara]

chama,
Mkuu wangu umeonyesha mengi sana mabaya ya Idd Amin ambayo bado hayajengi hoja ya kwamba Idd Amin hakupendwa sana na wananchi wake maana hawa wote ulowaweka ni watu waliokuwa wakimpinga Idd Amin. Sijasema Idd Amin alikuwa mtu mzuri, tena basi kwa mifano yotye hii uloitoa inaonyesha jinsi jamaa huyu alivyokuwa mnyama lakini mnakataa sii yeye aliyeivamia Tanzania pamoja na unyama wake wote ila Nyerere ndiye alitaka kumrudisha Obote. Nikawauliza, sasa kama Nyerere alitaka kumrudisha Obote ilikuwaje baada ya kumwondoa Idd Amin walipewa Yussuph Lule na kisha akaingia Binaisa badala ya Obote?.. Na hata Obote aliporudi Uganda aliingia kupitia uchaguzi wa kura ndipo alipochaguliwa kuridi madarakani na yeye akaanza mauaji kama Idd Amin na pengine zaidi lakini hutasikia watu hawa hawa waandishi wakimsema sana kama Idd Amin tena basi wanamchukia Museveni zaidi japokuwa naye aliwaokoa toka makucha ya Obote. Jiulize!

Kifupi kwa mtu makini kama mimi sipendi kusoma habari zinazoandikwa na watu wa west hasa pale wanaposisitiza kwa mfano picha ya juu wanasema Idd Amin alikuwa akiua watu and I quote - The Bodies of most of Amin's victims were clandestinely sdisposed of or mutilated beyond recognition - halafu tunaonyeshwa picha za maiti za watu ambao wanaonekana vizuri tu, mara ati Archbishop aliuawa mara tu baada ya makutano hayo tukionyeshwa bastola kiunoni mwa Idd Amin, lakini tena mwandishi anadai mchungaji huyo aliteswa sana kabla ya kuuawa. karibu kila unaposoma unakuta habari zinagongana zenyewe ingawa kweli Idd Amin alikuwa mnyama lakini kuongeza chunvi mara nyingi huharibu habari nzima.

Nitasema hivi Idd Amin alikuwa mshenzi sana tena wa kuchosha lakini bado itabakia ukweli kwamba alipendwa sana na wananchi wake labda nikupe mfano wa Hitler. hakuna kiongozi aliyependwa na wajarumani kama Hitler japokuwa hakuna kiongozi tunayemchukia dunia nzima kama Hitler. Kupendwa kwake na Wajarumani hakuwezi kuondoka kwa kutazama picha ama hisia zetu sisi kwa kuweka mtiririko wa maovu yake bado ukweli utabakia Hitler alipendwa sana na Wajarumani.

 

[Zakumi]

Zakumi,

..asante kwa uchambuzi wako.

..lakini kuna kikundi cha Waislamu hapa Tanzania wamesoma hitma kwa ajili ya Iddi Amini.

..kikundi hicho kimekuwa kikieneza propaganda kwamba vita vya Uganda na Biafra was nothing but Catholic crusades against Islam.

..sasa katika kuangalia facts tumekuta kwamba Yussuf Lule ndiye aliyeshika hatamu baada ya Alhaji Iddi Amini. Zaidi tumekuta kwamba Obote siyo Mkatoliki, na juu ya hilo alikuwa na mahusiano mabaya na Wakatoliki wa Uganda.

NB:

..ni nakubaliana na wewe kuhusu Obote kuvunja taasisi za Baganda ambao majority ni Wakatoliki.

..pamoja na hayo, yapo madai kwamba Obote alishiriki kuvunja domination ya Wakatoliki ktk sekta ya elimu kwa kuwapa nguvu zaidi Waanglikani na Waislamu.

JokaKuu AKA JK,

Pluralism ina mambo yake. Ni lazima ukubali conspiracy theories. Hapa Marekani kuna watu wanakwenda makanisani kila siku na ambao wanaoamini kuwa Rais Baraka Husein Obama AKA Barry Satoro ni mwislamu na kazaliwa Kenya.

Vilevile unaposema Kikundi cha waislamu utakuwa una-maanisha small minority na hakuna sababu ya ku-generalize. Waislamu sio homogeneous. Mimi sio mtu wa dini. Lakini kwa elimu ya historia za dini, nafahamu kuwa waislamu wanaombeleza msiba kwa siku tatu. Hitma ambayo inafanyika siku 40 is unislamic.

Hivyo hicho kikundi kilifanya political statement ambayo unIslamic.

 

[chama]

Chama,

I do blame Nyerere for economic hardship facing Tanzanians today. People aren't born leaders. They are deliberately prepared to become leaders and top performers. For example, after failed coup of 1964, Nyerere deliberately prepared the Tanzanian Defence forces to become one of the best fighting machines in the region.

Economically and politically he didn't take the same approach. He was very happy to be sorrounded with mediocre technocrats and politicians who took order and paid lip service.

Zakumi,

You have the rights to voice your opinion! But what I know Tanzanians loves Mwl. so much; during his funeral thousands of Tanzanians paid their respects days and nights, they cried as if they lost very close member of their family member; Zakumi "msambaa mmoja havunji soko" you can dislike him but that won`t change the views of millions Tanzanians who loves him; the man was born to a leader; even those great leaders never accomplish everything they wish but at least they tried; please just mention one person who is considered great leader in this world who performed 100%

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[chama]

chama,
Mkuu wangu umeonyesha mengi sana mabaya ya Idd Amin ambayo bado hayajengi hoja ya kwamba Idd Amin hakupendwa sana na wananchi wake maana hawa wote ulowaweka ni watu waliokuwa wakimpinga Idd Amin. Sijasema Idd Amin alikuwa mtu mzuri, tena basi kwa mifano yotye hii uloitoa inaonyesha jinsi jamaa huyu alivyokuwa mnyama lakini mnakataa sii yeye aliyeivamia Tanzania pamoja na unyama wake wote ila Nyerere ndiye alitaka kumrudisha Obote. Nikawauliza, sasa kama Nyerere alitaka kumrudisha Obote ilikuwaje baada ya kumwondoa Idd Amin walipewa Yussuph Lule na kisha akaingia Binaisa badala ya Obote?.. Na hata Obote aliporudi Uganda aliingia kupitia uchaguzi wa kura ndipo alipochaguliwa kuridi madarakani na yeye akaanza mauaji kama Idd Amin na pengine zaidi lakini hutasikia watu hawa hawa waandishi wakimsema sana kama Idd Amin tena basi wanamchukia Museveni zaidi japokuwa naye aliwaokoa toka makucha ya Obote. Jiulize!

Kifupi kwa mtu makini kama mimi sipendi kusoma habari zinazoandikwa na watu wa west hasa pale wanaposisitiza kwa mfano picha ya juu wanasema Idd Amin alikuwa akiua watu and I quote - The Bodies of most of Amin's victims were clandestinely sdisposed of or mutilated beyond recognition - halafu tunaonyeshwa picha za maiti za watu ambao wanaonekana vizuri tu, mara ati Archbishop aliuawa mara tu baada ya makutano hayo tukionyeshwa bastola kiunoni mwa Idd Amin, lakini tena mwandishi anadai mchungaji huyo aliteswa sana kabla ya kuuawa. karibu kila unaposoma unakuta habari zinagongana zenyewe ingawa kweli Idd Amin alikuwa mnyama lakini kuongeza chunvi mara nyingi huharibu habari nzima.

Nitasema hivi Idd Amin alikuwa mshenzi sana tena wa kuchosha lakini bado itabakia ukweli kwamba alipendwa sana na wananchi wake labda nikupe mfano wa Hitler. hakuna kiongozi aliyependwa na wajarumani kama Hitler japokuwa hakuna kiongozi tunayemchukia dunia nzima kama Hitler. Kupendwa kwake na Wajarumani hakuwezi kuondoka kwa kutazama picha ama hisia zetu sisi kwa kuweka mtiririko wa maovu yake bado ukweli utabakia Hitler alipendwa sana na Wajarumani.

Mkandara
Mkuu naona unashindwa kujenga hoja; siku zote hoja hujibiwa kwa hoja; tatizo lako kubwa umekosa mtiririko wa kujibu mada husika; mimi sijaona umakini wako kwa hili suala la Idd Amini nadhani umetawaliwa zaidi na mapenzi labda kuna jambo umenufaika nalo kutokana na utawala wake. Habari za Amin hazikuongezewa chumvi watu walichofanya ni kuyaweka hadharani; matukio mengi ya Amin ni kati ya 1971 na 1978 bado waganda wanaugulia majeraha yake; njoo na article yeyote yenye kuonyesha Amin ni kipenzi cha waganda; nina uhakika umeshagoogle sana lakini umeambulia patupu; Utajiumiza kichwa kuibadili historia ya Uganda hutaweza; Amin alikuwa na sifa moja tu MUUAJI. Habari niliyokuwekea haitoki kwa waandishi wa west; hao ni waganda wenyewe. Mkuu hapa hatushindani njoo na facts; mpaka sasa hivi unakuja na hadithi za kwenye vilinge vya kahawa.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[chama]

If i decide to create blocks of JF members, then i've no doubt kwamba nngu007 nitakuweka kwenye block ya members ambao hawawezi kuwa na ushahidi wa kile wanachokitetea halafu wakashindwa kuuweka in advance......i've no doubt! Sitaki sio tu kuamini, bali hata kufikiria kwamba nngu007 unaweza kuwa na ki2 tangible na bado usikiweke hapa hadi uchokozwe....kutokana na imani yangu hiyo, ndiyo maana napata kiburi kwamba huna cha ushahidi wala nini, kama unao ambao unaelezea pasipo na shaka yoyote kwamba ni Amin na majeshi yake ndio walianza uchokozi, then mwaga hapa jamvini ili nami niongezee ufahamu wangu!!! Kinyume chake, nitachukulia mithili ya mtindo wa huku kwe2 uswahilini...jamaa unakuta anakupiga bonge la mkwara; UNANIJUA MIMI...?! Usipowajulia watu hawa, unaweza kuishia kunywea mithili ya kinda la ndege lililonyeshewa mvua!! Lakini kwa akina sie, ambao tumezaliwa na kukulia huku, jibu letu linakuwa rahisi tu...NA WEWE UNANIJUA MIMI?!

NasDaz;
Mbona unakuwa mvivu wa kusoma? Pitia post za Waberoya ipo research paper imeeleza kila kitu; ametuwekea na link ni link ya Omaha university

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[reandle]

NasDaz
Naona umeishiwa na hoja sasa unakuja na hadithi za alinacha; nilichomuulia Waberoya ni kitu kidogo sana; tatizo lenu mnakurupuka kuposti vitu ambavyo hamvisomi, majibu yote yamo kwenye link ya Waberoya, hapa hatufanyi ligi tunelemishana; kwa nini hamfanyi kama Zakumi? Yeye akiona hana jibu anaomba muda ili afanye utafiti; tatizo NasDaz unataka kutoa majibu ya kwenye vilinge vya kahawa.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama mkuu wangu unanionea bure mdogo wako (au kaka yako?! vita vile vilipiganwa wakati sijaacha sawasawa kunyonya!)!! Narudia tena, unanionea bure mkuu wangu! Mtu aliyetakiwa kunishushua kwenye post ile ni Mkandara nae tayari ameshanishushua. And with due respect, I do agree kwamba I was wrong coz’ nili-quote paragraph kutoka kwenye post yako….paragraph ile, originally ilikuwa ni ya Waberoya’s piece of work but nikazani ilikuwa ni Mkandara’s piece of work (Ingawaje content yenyewe ni sawa tu na kusema author was Mkandara !!!!). Ingawaje umenishutumu wazi wazi kwamba nimekurupuka nahofia kwamba ni wewe ndie uliyekurupuka! Hebu twende pamoja, hatua kwa hatua!!

MSINGI WA POST ULIYOI-QUOTE!!
This’s was Waberoya’s work:

Nimekupa mifano tu mkuu, nimekaa uganda na ninaweza kukueleza mengi ya huko, Stop calling Amin a dictator, just because you studied that in history does mean so!! just because western propaganda it does mean so!! waingereza ndio walimuita sana Amin baada ya kuwafanyia yale mambo!!! USA at that very time mnamwita amin dicator bado walikuwa na mahusiano mazuri sana ya kibiashara, please find in literature!!

This’s how Mkandara’s piece of work about Amin:

Narudi kwa chama, mkuu wangu nimefanya sana biashara Uganda baada ya vita wakati wa mashati ya Juliana tukipeleka kwao sukari, sigara na matairi ya General tyres halafu tunarudi na vitu vya Dubai maana Waganda ndio watu wa kwanza kushtukia Dubai. Asikudanganye mtu nilikuwa natembelea sana Uganda na kkuhusu ubaya wa Idd Amin yategemea unakutana na nani. …………………………………..
Idd Amin alipendwa sana Uganda na wananchi wa kawaida isipokuwa wataalam na wanasiasa ambao walikuwa upande wa pili. Kumbuka Uganda tayari ilikuwa na vyama akaja mwanajeshi na kuua siasa za nchi sii rahisi viongozi wanasiasa kukubaliana na utawala wa kidikteta.……………..
Lakini usitake kabisa niamini kwamba Idd Amin alichukiwa na wananchi wake ambao wengi ni maskini hawakuwa na kitu walipopewa ardhi na kugawiwa mali kama alivyokuwa akiahidi Mtikila. ……..

And this was Chama’s piece of work:

Mkuu Mkandara;
Amin alikuwa ni Dikteta wapo wachache ambao walinufaika na utawala wake hao lazima walimpenda; lakini mganda wa kawaida hakuna aliyempenda na hii ndio ilichangia anguko lake kirahisi; hofu iliwatawala waganda; hata kama kiongozi unapingwa na viongozi wa dini tendo halijustify uwauwe wapinzani wako. Hivi Mkandara inakuingia akilini kusema Askofu alifanya kosa kukemea mauji yaliyokuwa yakifanywa na Idd Amin?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

And NasDaz, concluded this:

And what i see here is like Two Ugandans who made several trips to Tanzania! Mmoja walikuwa anafikia Kilimanjaro hususani Moshi na mwingine alikua anafikia place like Dodoma! The time when these two Ugandans fellows were back home, mmoja alikuwa anasisitiza kwa nguvu zote ni jinsi gani CHADEMA na Slaa wao walivyo very powerful all over Tanzania. Mwingine, anakataa katakata na kusisitiza HOW CCM na JK wao walivyo very powerful all over Tanzania!! I guess, it's researchable topic otherwise, una-apply msemo wa Baba Riz, Akili za Mbayu mbayu, changanya na.......!!!

Nami, ndio maana nikahitimisha kwa kutoa mfano wa waganda wawili, mmoja alifikia Kilimanjaro, na mwingine Dodoma! Hawa lazima watakuwa na kauli tofauti juu ya CHADEMA na CCM!! Kwamba,inawezekana kabisa kwamba wewe na Waberoya/Mkandara wote mpo sahihi kwavile msimamo wa maoni yenu juu ya kupendwa ama kutopendwa kwa Amin itategemea nani alikuwa anaenda sana wapi!!
Je, mkuu wangu Chama, bado unaamini nilikurupuka?!! Ni kweli hapo sikuwa na hoja kama ulivyosema?!
Anyway, lakini huo ndo uondo wa JF especially panapokuwa na mjadala usio wa kichademachadema au ki ccm ccm!!

 

[reandle]

NasDaz;
Mbona unakuwa mvivu wa kusoma? Pitia post za Waberoya ipo research paper imeeleza kila kitu; ametuwekea na link ni link ya Omaha university

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Shutuma kwamba uvivu wa kusoma, HAPANA, labda unipe shutuma za kutoelewa nilichosoma!!! Ukifuatilia post zangu za nyuma, mie nilishatoa quotation kutoka kwenye hiyo article na tena nilitoa hiyo kabla Waberoya hajatoa hiyo link! Sikumbuki ni post namba ngapi, but i think page 9 or 10.