Vita vya Kagera: Nini chanzo? Kulikuwa na ulazima?

[Ndahani]

Sikutaka kusema kitu kwenye mjadala huu kwa sababu nilishasema mengi hapo awali huu mjadala ulipojitokeza mara ya kwanza.
Kwa Nyerere kumpa hifadhi Obote was a given. Kwenye mkutano wa Commonwealth wa Singapore lengo la Heath lilikuwa ni kum-isolate Nyerere aonekane kama ndiye yuko out of step kwa kuishinikiza Uingereza isitishe kuiuzia silaha Afrika kusini. Obote alisimama kidete na Nyerere katika suala hili ikafikia wakati Heath akamtishia kuwa wengine hapa hawatarudi nyumbani kwao. Kumbe Uingereza ilishajua mipango iliyosukwa na intelligence yao na Israel kumpindua Obote. Ungekuwa wewe Nyerere katika hali kama hii kweli ungemsaliti rafiki yako? Obote kwanza alikimbilia Kenya, Waingereza wakamwambia Kenyatta asimpe hifadhi. Ungekuwa wewe Nyerere ungefanya nini? Waberoya, kuna wakati nashindwa kukuelewa kabisa!

There are things that if we do will always set us apart....Naaam, ndiyo maana Nyerere anasemwa sana. Hawa wazungu tunaowalamba miguu, yeye alikuwa na uthubutu wa kukomaa nao uso kwa uso na kuwapa vitu vyao.
Kwenye ukweli, uongo utajitenga

 

[reandle]

NasDas
Kumwita Mwl. Nyerere ni Principle architect wa vita vya Kager si sahihi lakini kwa vile una uhuru wa kutoa mawazo ni haki yako; tumeshakueleza haionyeshi mahala popote pale kuwa Tanzania ilivunja makubaliano ya amani tuliyosaini Somalia; utafiti unakueleza wazi kuwa baada ya Idd Amin kukabiliwa na uasi wa wanajeshi wake aliamua kuivamia Tanzania ili wanajeshi wake wapate shughuli ya kufanya; hata yeye hakuwa nasababu hata moja ya kuivamia Tanzania; kwasababu uvamizi wake hauonyeshi kwamba alikuwa anavitafuta vikosi vya waasi wa Uganda vilivyopo Tanzania; nashindwa kuelewa kwanini umechagua kukubali baadhi ya vipengele na kufumbia macho vingine; upinzani dhidi ya Amin ulikuwa mkubwa ndani ya Uganda na ndio sababu alikuwa akiiuwa raia zake hadharani; kama Amin asiingeivamia Tanzania ni vita ile isingetokea, Nyerere hakuwa na sababu ya kupeleka askari wetu Uganda; For Tanzania Kagera war was not just war; we had legitimate reasons to fight that war.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,
Nitangulie tu kusema kwamba hata mimi nilipata taabu sana na kujisikia ukakasi kutumia hiyo brand ya Principal War Architect!!Kwanini nilijisikia taabu sana....naamini wengi wanaweza wasiamini, lakini amini usiamini, Nyerere nilikuwa nam-feel sana yule mzee!! Na hata kama leo hii angekuwa hai, halafu mtu akiniuliza ungependa nikukutanishe na nani....wala nisingesita kumtaja Nyerere!! Lakini vilevile nina uhakika, endapo baada ya kukutana huko tungeanza kubadilishana mawazo hususani ya wakati wa uongozi wake, naamini hapo hapo ningeanza kumkosoa!! Na hii imeshawahi kunikuta....kuna siku nilienda nyumbani kwa mheshimiwa mmoja aliye ndani ya serikali ya JK....Hii ilikuwa ni baada ya kusaga sana lami kutafuta kibarua lakini nisipate. Ikatokea zali, kuna uncle wangu mmoja akanituma kwake nami nikakata shauri kwamba lazima mheshimiwa yule nikamwambie anisaidie kupata kazi!!! Basi bana, ile tumeanza kuongea tu mara nikajikuta naanza kuipiga madongo CCM mbele yake!!Lakini bila aibu, mwisho wa maongezi, nikampa shida yangu!!! Hivyo ndivyo nilivyo...am firm to what i believe is right!

Sasa tuje na hilo la kumuita Nyerere kwamba ni Principal War Architect! Sincerly, bado sijutii and i stil believe in that! WHY? Nimejaribu kwanza kuangalia ROLE ya Architect!! Kwamba, majengo yote tuyaonayo hata kama ni mazuri au mabaya kiasi gani, source ya muonekano huo ni ARCHITECT kwavile yeye ndie ambae ali-design jengo husika!! So, Nyerere naamini ni Principal War Architect ni kwavile bado naamini kwamba baada ya kumpa hifadhi Obote, yeye akaanza kumsadia Obote operations dhidi ya serikali ya Amin...na hapo ndipo lilipoanza tatizo. Na katika masuala ya kiusalama, nchi ina haki ya kuishambulia nchi nyingine hata kama yenyewe haijashambuliwa provided ina ushahidi kwamba isipofanya hivyo inaweza ikashambiluliwa yenyewe! Sina hakika kama nimeeleweka!

Let's assume kwamba kuna taarifa za kiitelejensia ambazo zime-prove beyond reasonable doubt kwamba Rwanda ina mpango wa kuivamia Tanzania! Katika mazingira kama hayo, Tanzania ina HAKI na WAJIBU wa kushambulia/kuvamia kabla Rwanda haijafanya hivyo!! Ni bahati mbaya sana, katika mazingira kama hayo watu wanaweza kuilaumu Tanzania kwa kuishambulia Rwanda kwavile hawafahamu nini kilikuwa kinaendelea! Hivyo, kwavile tayari kulishakuwa na uthibitisho kwamba Obote alikuwa anafanya mipango ya kuivamia Uganda, basi serikali ya Amin ilikuwa na HAKI na WAJIBU wa kutuwahi kabla sisi hatujafanya hivyo....hiyo, ndiyo rule of the game!! Na kama intelligency ya Nyerere ingekuwa inafanya kazi vizuri ni kufahamu in advance kwamba Amin alikuwa anataka kuishambulia Tanzania (ile ya 1978) basi JWTZ walitakiwa wao waanze kabla Amin hajavuka mipaka na kuja kuua watu Tanzania! Hiyo, ndiyo rule of the game! Kama ambavyo tunaamini kwamba salama ya Tanzania ilikuwa ni kumwondoa Amin, basi salama ya Amin nayo ilikuwa ni kuitia adabu Tanzania inayomuhifadhi mtu anayetishia madaraka yake! Ni kama Bush ambayo ilikata shauri la kwenda kuivamia Afghanistan kwavile tu wanamuhifadhi Osama....hiyo ndiyo rule of the game!!

Chama, amimi usiamini....NYerere na Obote walikuwa wanausubiria kwa hamu uvamizi ule ambao ulifanywa na Amin! Ni kama walimtegea kitanzi, na yeye akaingia! Lazima ukumbuke kwamba Nyerere was very intelligent, kwahiyo mipango yake nayo ilihitaji mtu aliyeenda shule na sio mtu kama Amin!! Kama Amin nae angekuwa mwerevu sawa na Nyerere, basi si ajabu hivi sasa wala pasingekuwa na ubishani ni nani hasa mgomvi kwenye vita ile!! Ingekuwa ni sawa na Vita ya Bush Jr na Iraq, alitafuta sana sababu za kumwondoa Saadam madarakani lakini akazikosa na alipoona hatazipata akaamua tu kuvamia Iraq hivyo hivyo!

Lakini pamoja na yote hayo....unasema mkuu wangu kutokana na nukuu ambazo zimewekwa na Zakumi kwamba ni maelezo ya Obote wakati wa interview! Nukuu zile unazikubali au unazikataa?!

 

[chama]

NasDaz
Kabla architect hajaanza kuchora si anamsikiliza mwenye nyumba anataka mjengo wa namna gani?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Zakumi]

NasDaz
Kabla architect hajaanza kuchora si anamsikiliza mwenye nyumba anataka mjengo wa namna gani?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Chama,

To some extent, you are being disingenuous. If you read the documents I have attached in one of my previous posts, you would find out that Nyerere had an intent to help Obote to return to power. He tried to do so in 1972, but it didn't work. So he decided to buy his time until Amin made mistakes.

The reason we are having this discussion is Tanzanians don't like to read and conduct some research work. We always believe what our leaders are always correct.

 

[chama]

Chama,

To some extent, you are being disingenuous. If you read the documents I have attached in one of my previous posts, you would find out that Nyerere had an intent to help Obote to return to power. He tried to do so in 1972, but it didn't work. So he decided to buy his time until Amin made mistakes.

The reason we are having this discussion is Tanzanians don't like to read and conduct some research work. We always believe what our leaders are always correct.

Zakumi,
You don`t want to admit the truth Mwl. Nyerere twice refused to go ahead with the plan to invade Uganda; this was clear indication that war was not the choice to deal with Amin, several times Amin army crossed the boarder and harrassed villagers in Kagera region and at one point he sent military jet to bomb Mwanza; so with all these scenarios who was the real architector?

We signed peace agreement with Amin hoping he will respect our territory but he turned deaf because he had backup from British and other western countries; there is no question that we were waiting for a good time to punish his ass so we can live in peace; we gave him a rope and let him hang himself.

In the real world of politics; politicians don`t lie and they don`t tell the truth either; if the truth was the factor ask your self why no politician dare to use holy book? Please mention one politician who speak the whole truth he/she knows.

Politics is the game of opportunity sometime you have to leave the truth a side and let the politics play.
Peace!

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[Hofstede]

Among many but Idd Amin was a real patriote. Ukiacha propaganda tulizokuwa tukiimbishwa shuleni katika nyimbo kama

'..Idi Amini jasusi tena ilo joka kuu
..limefanya uvamizi kuteka ardhi yetu..'
.. Hatuna kazi nyingi ni kulifunza adabu..'

Kulikuwa na stori nyingi kama Amini kula nyama za watu, kuua watu bila sababu, kubaka au kuchukua kwa nguvu wanawake anaowataka hata kama ni wake za watu, n.k. Lakini ukiangalia hii documentary ambayo inamuonesha the real Idi Amin utagundua kuwa kilichomuangusha ni shule na wale waliomzunguuka. Kilichoharibu Public image ya Image ni jinsi alivyokuwa alivyofanya puclic executions mara 12, kutisha wanaompinga.

Katika suala la kuua watu, utagundua kuwa huo ulikuwa ni utamaduni wa marais wengi wa Afrika baada ya uhuru. Tanzania yetu kuna watu walitoweka na mpaka leo hawajulikani walipo na haijulikani kama wapo hai au waliuwawa. Inawezekana kabisa kilichofanya Tanzania kupigana na Uganda ni kitendo cha Amin kutaka Kagera kuwa sehemu ya Uganda lakini pia kuna more than that. Iddi Amin was a real African Patriot.

 

[JokaKuu]

Huo hauwezi kuwa ni uthibitisho, labda ni kwavile hawakufahamu Amin angefanya wakati gani uvamizi wa kijeshi.

Nukuu nyingine hii hapa: "Indicative of Nyerere's restraint was his order closing Obote's training camp at Handeni. Overt support for Ugandan exiles ended. But Nyerere "privately let it be known that anti-Amin activities could go on, discreetly and quitely." Nukuu hiyo inaonesha wazi kwambaa lengo la Nyerere na Swahibu wake Obote lilikuwa palepale ila ambacho alikifanya NYerere ni kuacha kum-support Obote kwa uwazi bila shaka alichelea kuonekana anavunja makubaliano ingawaje kimsingi tayari alishayapa kisogo makubaliano hayo!!

Nukuu nyingine hii hapa: "Obote's operations from 1972 to 1978 focused more on intelligence gathering and small covert operations designed to keep a very low profile."

Nukuu hiyo inaonesha wazi kwamba kumbe hata baada ya makubaliano ya amani 1972, bado Obote aliendeleza "Operations" zake frm 1972to 1978 kabla ya vita. Na kwavile Obote alikuwa anahifadhiwa na kufadhiliwa Tanzania, basi sina shaka yoyote kwamba operations hizo zilikuwa na mkono wa Nyerere na hivyo kudhihirisha wazi madai yako ama si sahihi au hayana grounds! Kwa hali ilivyokuwa hasa kwa kuzingatia nukuu nilizotoa, utakuta kwamba Nyerere na Amin wote walikuwa tatizo lakini endapo nitaulizwa ni nani anayepaswa kubebeshwa lawama zaidi basi sitasita kusema kwamba ni Nyerere hasa kwavile alichukua role ya Principal War Architect.

NB: Nukuu zote hizo ni kutoka kwenye andiko ambalo Mzee Mwanakijiji na Chama wanalikubali. And, as far as you're from the same boat then i've no doubt kwamba hata wewe na Jasusi mnalikubali andiko hilo: The Tanzanian Invations Of Uganda: A Just War?

NasDaz,

..kama Iddi Amini asingetuvamia in 1978 na kuendelea kutushambulia hata baada ya kumtoa kwenye ardhi yetu basi huenda angefia madarakani.

..vita hii ingetokea mwaka 1972 basi madai yako yangekuwa na msingi kwasababu wakati ule Mwalimu ndiyo alikuwa aggressor.

..The "equations" changed so much baada ya Mogadishu peace accord na bado sijaona ushahidi kwamba Mwalimu alimchokoza kijeshi Iddi Amin baada ya kusainiwa kwa mkataba wa amani, na kwamba in 1978 Iddi Amin was responding to a military provocation by Tanzania.

NB:

..Mwalimu pia alimchukia Kamuzu Banda na alitoa hifadhi kwa wapinzani toka Malawi kama Kanyama Chiume, na Orton Chirwa. Kama chuki ingekuwa ndiyo kigezo cha Mwalimu kwenda vitani basi nadhani Kamuzu asingefia madarakani.

..The fact is Iddi Amin alivamia ardhi yetu, akaua watu, akaharibu mali, na akaitangazia dunia kwamba ame-annex ardhi ya Tanzania. Hata pale tulipomuondoa ktk ardhi yetu bado aliendelea kutushambulia kwa ndege za kivita. Katika mazingira kama hayo Raisi yeyote wa Tanzania lazima angekwenda vitani kumuondoa Amini.

 

[Jasusi]

Amin an African patriot? This gives patriotism a new name.

 

[Kigogo]

ilikuwa vita ya kugombania na kuchukulian amademu tu hakuna lolote la maana

 

[Hofstede]

Amin an African patriot? This gives patriotism a new name.

Mkuu ukiacha zile propaganda za RTD mwaka 1972 na mwaka 1978/79, Ukikutana na Mganda aliyekuwa enzi za Amin, atakwambia kuwa jamaa alikuwa ni one of their best leaders. Amini alikuwa kiogopwa na vibaraka wa nje waliokuwa wakitumiwa kumhujumu. Normal people were his best friends.

Na alikuwa Patriot hasa. Ila ukimtazama kwa picha ya kipropaganda utamuona ni worse dictator, muuaji, katili, mla nyama za watu etc. Hata mimi nililishwa imani hiyo ila baada ya kuongea na waganda wengi wanaojua Idi Amin era wao hawamwoni hivyo. Sasa kama unasababu za kuamini tofauti hiyo ni haki yako.

 

[Jasusi]

Mkuu ukiacha zile propaganda za RTD mwaka 1972 na mwaka 1978/79, Ukikutana na Mganda aliyekuwa enzi za Amin, atakwambia kuwa jamaa alikuwa ni one of their best leaders. Amini alikuwa kiogopwa na vibaraka wa nje waliokuwa wakitumiwa kumhujumu. Normal people were his best friends.

Na alikuwa Patriot hasa. Ila ukimtazama kwa picha ya kipropaganda utamuona ni worse dictator, muuaji, katili, mla nyama za watu etc. Hata mimi nililishwa imani hiyo ila baada ya kuongea na waganda wengi wanaojua Idi Amin era wao hawamwoni hivyo. Sasa kama unasababu za kuamini tofauti hiyo ni haki yako.

Hofstede,
Nilishaandika hapa juu ya rafiki yangu mmoja wa Kiganda aliyefanya sherehe baada ya Amin kuingia mamlakani.
Miaka michache baadaye tu akawa wa kwanza kusema hadharani; "Amin mkyenzi. Anakinja watu." Amin alipoingia mamlakani kitu cha kwanza alitaka kwenda Afrika kusini. The guy was a bufoon, if anything. Not an African patriot.

Aliingizwa mamlakani kwa msaada wa Waingereza na Wayahudi. Then he discovered Qaddafi. He became a true Muslim and kicked out the Israelis.

Do you know why Qaddafi kicked him out of Libya and he had to live the rest of his life in Saud Arabia?

 

[Hofstede]

Hofstede,
Do you know why Qaddafi kicked him out of Libya and he had to live the rest of his life in Saud Arabia?

Intesting can you elaborate more on this?.

 

[Jasusi]

Intesting can you elaborate more on this?.

Amin deceived Qaddafi into bringing his troops to Uganda to fight his war. Qaddafi later had to apologize to Julius Nyerere when they met in Tripoli years later. Remember he lost almost 100 soldiers and 400 were captured by Tanzania. When he was in Tripoli, Amin did not go to mosque as Qaddafi had expected and he was drinking a lot of whisky.
Qaddafi told him to pack up and go and Saudi Arabia gave him asylum.

 

[chama]

Amin deceived Qaddafi into bringing his troops to Uganda to fight his war. Qaddafi later had to apologize to Julius Nyerere when they met in Tripoli years later. Remember he lost almost 100 soldiers and 400 were captured by Tanzania. When he was in Tripoli, Amin did not go to mosque as Qaddafi had expected and he was drinking a lot of whisky.
Qaddafi told him to pack up and go and Saudi Arabia gave him asylum.

Jasusi,

Idd Amin was ruthless and murderer I can`t find a better way to explain him; those who call him a true patriot may be they need to review the real meaning of patriot; and honestly some of those who engaged in negativity against Mwalimu Nyerere is simply because their parents have tested the bitter side of Mwalimu.But Not too long they will understand what type of person Mwalimu Nyerere was.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[reandle]

Hofstede,
Nilishaandika hapa juu ya rafiki yangu mmoja wa Kiganda aliyefanya sherehe baada ya Amin kuingia mamlakani.
Miaka michache baadaye tu akawa wa kwanza kusema hadharani; "Amin mkyenzi. Anakinja watu." Amin alipoingia mamlakani kitu cha kwanza alitaka kwenda Afrika kusini. The guy was a bufoon, if anything. Not an African patriot.
Aliingizwa mamlakani kwa msaada wa Waingereza na Wayahudi. Then he discovered Qaddafi. He became a true Muslim and kicked out the Israelis. Do you know why Qaddafi kicked him out of Libya and he had to live the rest of his life in Saud Arabia?

Jasusi,
Binafsi sikufahamu lakini hapa jukwaani watu huwa tunahisiana kutokana na maandiko yetu! Hivyo basi, ingawaje personally sikufahamu bado sina shaka yoyote kwamba wewe ni miongoni mwa wachache walioneemeka ndani ya nchi hii(TZ) hata kama inaweza isiwe kwa kiwango kikubwa.

Sina shaka yoyote kwamba nawe ulikuwa (ama bado upo) ni miongoni mwa watu waliokuwa jikoni hususani enzi za mwalimu. Kutokana na shaka yangu hiyo, basi there's no way kwamba unaweza kuwa na marafiki wa kawaida kama aliowazungumzia Hofstede!! Binafsi, nimemwelewa sana Hofstede....kwa watu wa kawaida, Amin alikuwa ni best leader....!! Amin, ni kama Gadaff. Kwa raia wa kawaida wa Libya, Gadaf was a good leader.

Ni nini basi raia wa kawaida anachokihitaji zaidi ya uhakika wa chakla, huduma bora za afya, elimu including all social services?! Lakini kwa Mlibya ambae bado anaamini kwamba pasipo na uhuru wa maoni na demokrasia ya kisiasa basi yote si lolote si chochote....!!! Na hivyo ndivyo ilivyokuwa kwa Amin.

Kwa mtu wa kawaida, amabe hakuwa tishio kwa utawala wa Amin, hawa walikuwa ni vipenzi wa Amin. Lakini kwa wale sawa na mimi na wewe, katu hawawezi kipenzi cha mtawala yeyote Africa! Am very to say kwamba hata Mwalimu nae hakuwa kipenzi wa watu kama hawa na yeye hakuwataka.

Kilichomsaidia mwalimu ni kwamba alikuwa na moyo wa kibinadamu zaidi na ndio maana wabaya wake alikuwa anaishia kwa kuwaweka ndani tu badala ya kuwaua!

 

[reandle]

Jasusi,

Idd Amin was ruthless and murderer I can`t find a better way to explain him; those who call him a true patriot may be they need to review the real meaning of patriot; and honestly some of those who engaged in negativity against Mwalimu Nyerere is simply because their parents have tested the bitter side of Mwalimu.But Not too long they will understand what type of person Mwalimu Nyerere was.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

At least am happy that am not among of them! But if u want my view about Mwalimu, simple nd clear kwamba: was a good a leader who made a lot of serious mistakes especially kwenye usimamizi wa masuala ya uchumi!! He was a good manager in political issues but not in economic issues! Angekuwa tayari kumvumilia aliyefanya upuuzi kwenye masuala ya kiuchumi lakini asingemvumilia mtu ambae angemletea ujinga kwenye siasa/utawala!! He was a greatest philospher in african history with bundles of constructive ideas but unfortunately was poor implementor!! He was the man with high sensitive and convincing power....and excellent communicator!! If some1 would ask me what type of job Mwalimu could perfrom at his highest standard then my answer could be simple and clear....if not a university leacturer, he could fit much better as an economic and political advisor to any executive president than that post being held by him.

 

[reandle]

NasDaz,

..kama Iddi Amini asingetuvamia in 1978 na kuendelea kutushambulia hata baada ya kumtoa kwenye ardhi yetu basi huenda angefia madarakani.

..vita hii ingetokea mwaka 1972 basi madai yako yangekuwa na msingi kwasababu wakati ule Mwalimu ndiyo alikuwa aggressor.

..The "equations" changed so much baada ya Mogadishu peace accord na bado sijaona ushahidi kwamba Mwalimu alimchokoza kijeshi Iddi Amin baada ya kusainiwa kwa mkataba wa amani, na kwamba in 1978 Iddi Amin was responding to a military provocation by Tanzania.

NB:

..Mwalimu pia alimchukia Kamuzu Banda na alitoa hifadhi kwa wapinzani toka Malawi kama Kanyama Chiume, na Orton Chirwa. Kama chuki ingekuwa ndiyo kigezo cha Mwalimu kwenda vitani basi nadhani Kamuzu asingefia madarakani.

..The fact is Iddi Amin alivamia ardhi yetu, akaua watu, akaharibu mali, na akaitangazia dunia kwamba ame-annex ardhi ya Tanzania. Hata pale tulipomuondoa ktk ardhi yetu bado aliendelea kutushambulia kwa ndege za kivita. Katika mazingira kama hayo Raisi yeyote wa Tanzania lazima angekwenda vitani kumuondoa Amini.

Bila shaka Mwalimu alimchukia Banda kv Banda alikuwa ni kibaraka mkubwa wa makaburu. Ni hatari sana kuwa na jirani ambae ni swahiba wa adui yako! Hata hivyo, case ya Banda ipo tofauti kidogo na Amini hata kama wote walikuwa wana-claim sehemu za Tanzania kuwa ardhi halali ya nchi zao.
Wakati naamini kwamba Mwalimu alimchukia Banda kwavile alikuwa ni kibaraka lakini alimchukia Amin kwa kumuona ni jambazi tu lisilofaa kuongoza hususani kama kuongoza huko kulikuja baada ya kumpindua mtu (Obotte) ambae Mwalimu alimwamini!! Pamoja na kwamba Mwalimu aliwapa hifadhi wapinzani wa Banda, lakini bado kunatofauti kati ya kutoa hifadhi kwa wapinzani wa rais X na kutoa military support kwa wapinzani wa rais X. All in all, mfano wako unafanya contradiction....au kwa maana nyingine unampa credit Banda na sio Mwalimu kwamba, pamoja na ukweli kwamba Mwalimu alitoa hifadhi kwa wapinzani wa Banda, lakini Banda hakufanya serious abuse dhidi ya Mwalimu kama ambavyo alifanya Amin.

 

[chama]

At least am happy that am not among of them! But if u want my view about Mwalimu, simple nd clear kwamba: was a good a leader who made a lot of serious mistakes especially kwenye usimamizi wa masuala ya uchumi!! He was a good manager in political issues but not in economic issues! Angekuwa tayari kumvumilia aliyefanya upuuzi kwenye masuala ya kiuchumi lakini asingemvumilia mtu ambae angemletea ujinga kwenye siasa/utawala!! He was a greatest philospher in african history with bundles of constructive ideas but unfortunately was poor implementor!! He was the man with high sensitive and convincing power....and excellent communicator!! If some1 would ask me what type of job Mwalimu could perfrom at his highest standard then my answer could be simple and clear....if not a university leacturer, he could fit much better as an economic and political advisor to any executive president than that post being held by him.

NasDaz
Mwalimu was human being like any other; he was not perfect and he admitted it; but what he did for this country I can tell you we will never have any one like him; now lets go back on how he performed as a leader; I told you before sometimes you need to let the politics play; can you tell me the cost of removing Saddam and Taliban? Don`t you think those politicians didn`t know the real costs? But what was the impact of leaving Saddam and Taliban in power? So in the politics world sometimes you do whatever necessary to protect your sovereignty that was exactly Mwalim did; during Mwalimu era Tanzanians were sure of basic needs the story is different now; so his economics policies were effective; I asked you before to mention one president who performed 100%; and why do you ignore the facts that Mwalimu did not get support from Western countries, IMF and WB?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

 

[reandle]

NasDaz
Mwalimu was human being like any other; he was not perfect and he admitted it; but what he did for this country I can tell you we will never have any one like him; now lets go back on how he performed as a leader; I told you before sometimes you need to let the politics play; can you tell me the cost of removing Saddam and Taliban? Don`t you think those politicians didn`t know the real costs? But what was the impact of leaving Saddam and Taliban in power? So in the politics world sometimes you do whatever necessary to protect your sovereignty that was exactly Mwalim did; during Mwalimu era Tanzanians were sure of basic needs the story is different now; so his economics policies were effective; I asked you before to mention one president who performed 100%; and why do you ignore the facts that Mwalimu did not get support from Western countries, IMF and WB?

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Sitaongea mengi kwa sasa coz' nipo kibaruani....but let me just say "come on Chama", ru serious in wht u've said in red!?! Tulijadili hilo baadae!

 

[Kimey]

Nimesoma hii habari na ninafurahi kusema nimeelimika kwa michango maridhawa iliyotolewa humu na wachangiaji wengi especially NasDaz na chama.

Wakati NasDaz akiamini kua vita ya Kagera zilikua ni chokochoko za Nyerere na Obote na ameweka ushahidi wake wote hapa ila kuna mahali bado ameshindwa kumjibu Chama "Kama sababu ya Idd Amini kuvamia Tanzania ilikua ni kuwasaka maaudui wake ambao wanatuhumiwa kutaka kumuondoa madarakani kwa nini uvamizi ule wa Idd Amini ulichukua sura ya "Kagera ni sehemu ya Uganda" au hii nayo ilikua ni propaganda ya Vita kutoka Tanzania?