Enyi Manabii wa kizazi kipya ni kweli mmepewa nguvu na Mwenyezi Mungu, au ni ushirikina tu?

[siasa ms]

Mungu haruhusu mabaya, kwa sababu hayupo.

Nasema hivi, kwa wale wanaosema Mungu yupo, ni mwenye ujuzi wote, uwezo wote na upendo wote, na ndiye kaumba ulimwengu huu unaoruhusu mabaya, habari yao ya kwamba Mungu huyo yupo na ndiye aliyeumba ulimwengu huu unaoruhusu mabaya ina contradiction.

Mungu huyo, kwa sifa zake hizo, angekuwepo, asingeumba ulimwengu ambao unaruhusu mabaya.

This is simple logical consistency.

Kwa utakatifu wa sifa za huyo Mungu, akiwepo, ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya hauwezi kuwepo.

Na ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya ukiwepo, Mungu huyo hayupo.

Ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya upo, hivyo, Mungu huyo hayupo.

Umeelewa?

Mabaya yanasababishwa na nani?

 

[Nyafwili]

Mbona unakuwa mgumu wa kuelewa?

Wapi nimesema nyota hazipo?

Mwanga wa nyota unachukua muda mrefu kutufikia, hivyo, nyota nyingi tunazoziona leo kama zipo, hazipo, kwa sababu mwanga wake umechukua maelfu ya miaka (hata mamilioni na mabilioni ya miaka kama unatumia telescopes) kutufikia na inawezekana mwanga wa nyota kutufikia leo, wakati nyota yenyewe ilishatoweka maelfu (mamilioni na mabikioni ya miaka kwa telescooe) ya miaka iliyopita. Usichoelewa ni kipi hapo?

Nyota iliyo karibu kabisa na sisi, ukiondoa jua, ni Proxima Centauri, iliyopo 4.246 light years away. Katika mfumo wa Alpha Centauri.

Maana yake ni kwamba, unapoiangalia nyota iliyo karibu kabisa na mfumo wa jua, huioni nyota hiyo ilivyo sasa hivi, unaiangalia kama ilivyokuwa mwezi wetu wa September mwaka 2019.

Maana yake, nyota iliyo karibu kabisa na sisi inaweza kuwa imetoweka miaka minne iliyopita, lakini sisi hatujajua tu bado kwa sababu mwanga wake unatumia miaka 4.246 kutufikia.

V276 Cas in Cassiopeia iko 16,308 light years away. Maana yake tukiiangakia leo, hatuioni kama ilivyo leo, tunaiona nyota hii kama ilivyokuwa miaka 16,308 iliyopita. Ikitoweka leo yetu ya hapa, hatutajua mpaka mwaka wetu 18,332.

Sasa, kuiona nyota hii mubashara leo hakumaanishi ipo leo. Tutajua nyota hii ilikuwepo leo yetu mwaka wetu wa 18,332.

Kwa hivyo, ukiondoa jua, nyota zote zingine unaziona kama zilivyokuwa mwaka 2019 au zamani zaidi. Hakuna nyota unayoiona kama ilivyokuwa mwaka 2020. Na kuna nyota nyingine unaziona kama zilivyokuwa maelfu ya miaka iliyopita.

Jua lenyewe unaloliona kila siku, na kufikiri unaliona mubashara, mwanga wake unachukua dakika 8 na sekunde 20 kutufikia.

Maana yake ni kwamba, unapofikiri unaliona jua kama lilivyo sasa hivi, hulioni kama lilivyo sasa hivi, unaliona kama lilivyokuwa dakika 8 na sekunde 20 zilizopita. Jua likizimika ghafla sasa hivi, hatutajua limezimika kwa dakika 8 na sekunde 20.

Sasa, unaposema mambo ya kuona kitu mubashara kama uthibitisho kuwa kitu kipo, unaweza kufikiri kitu kipo kwa sababu unakiona mubashara, wakati hakipo.

Mimi sijawahi kutaka kumuona Mungu kama uthibitisho kuwa Mungu yupo, kwa sababu najua inawezekana ukakiona kitu halafu hicho kitu kikawa hakipo, na kuna vitu vingine vipo lakini havionekani.

Ninachotaka ni angalau ushahidi wa maelezo ya kimantiki yasiyo na mkanganyiko, logic isiyo na contradiction.

Hujaweza kutoa maelezo ya Mungu yanayopangua contradictions zilizopo katika hoja za kuelezea uwepo wa Mungu.

Mkuu, Kila mtu ana sababu zake za kibinafsi za kutokuamini dini au kuthibitisha.

 

[Kiranga]

Mabaya yanasababishwa na nani?

Kwa nini swali liwe nani?

Kuna mabaya mengine ni majanga ya kiasili, matetemeko ya ardhi, maporomoko ya matope kutoka milimani.

Ni natural forces tu, kwa nini unauliza "nani"?

Inaonekana kama unataka kuwalaumu watu kwa mabaya wanayofanya, nakuonesha kuna mabaya ambayo hayasababishiwi na watu.

Na hata hayo mabaya unayoweza kusema yanayosababishwa na watu, kama unaamini Mungu kaumba ulimwengu, watu wameweza kufanya mabaya tu kwa sababu Mungu kaumba ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya kufanyika.

Sasa, kwa nini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote kaumba ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya kuweza kufanyika?

Yani kabla mtu yeyote hajafanya mabaya, ulimwengu aliouumba Mungu ulikuwa unaruhusu mabaya kufanyika, kwa nini Mungu kaumba ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya kufanyika, wakati aliweza kuumba ulimwengu ambao mabaya hayawezi kufanyika?

Kwa msingi huu, kwa mtu anayeamini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote kaumba ulimwengu, jibu la kimzizi kabisa lililo comprehensive la swali lako la "mabaya yamesababishwa na nani" ni Mungu.

Ikiwa Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote ndiye kaumba ulimwengu ambao mabaya yanaweza kufanyika, yeye ndiye kasababisha mabaya. Sisi wengine wote tukifanya mabaya ni kwa sababu tumewezeshwa kufanya mabaya kwa sababu ulimwengu aliouumba Mungu unaruhusu mabaya kufanyika.

Sasa, tunarudi kulekule kwenye swali la msingi.

Kwa nini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote, kaumba ulimwengu unaoweza kuruhusu mabaya wakati aliweza kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauruhusu mabaya?

 

[Kiranga]

Mkuu, Kila mtu ana sababu zake za kibinafsi za kutokuamini dini au kuthibitisha.

Mimi siongelei imani, mbona unakuwa mgumu kuelewa hilo?

Imani ni kitu cha binafsi ambacho hakifai hata kujadiliwa. Imani ni jambo la faragha ya mtu binafsi, protected.

Unaamini au huamini, haki yako, uongo au ukweli, haki yako.

Hii ni haki yako ya kikatiba. Fredom of self determination. Freedom of conscience. Freedom of worship. Haki za kikatiba zote hizi.

Haki hizi zipo kimataifa katika Universal Declaration of Huma Rights tangu December 10 1948.

Mimi siamini dini, lakini, mtu akiingilia uhuru wa watu wenye kuamini dini, nitasimama na wanaoamini dini kupinga haki yao ya kuamini dini kuingiliwa. Kimsingi, haki ya kuamini unachotaka ni upande mmoja wa haki ile ile ya kutoamini.

Lakini ukileta haya mambo JF, unaondoka kwenye faragha ya imani, unakuja kwenye public square kufanya mjadala wa wazi.

Sizungumzii imani hapa, nazungumzia facts, mambo yaliyopita imani yanayotaka uthibitisho. Imani haihitaji uthibitisho wala haifai kuhojiwa.

Unaelewa tofauti hapo?

 

[siasa ms]

Kwa nini swali liwe nani?

Kunamabaya mengine ni majanga ya kiasili, matetemeko ya ardhi, maporomoko ya matope kutoka milimani.

Ni natural forces tu, kwa nini unauliza "nani"?

Inaonekana kama unataka kuwalaumu watu kwa mabaya wanayofanya, nakuonesha kuna mabaya ambayo hayasababishiwi na watu.

Na hata hayo mabaya unayoweza kusema yanayosababishwa na watu, kama unaamini Mungu kaumba ulimwengu, watu wameweza kufanya mabaya tu kwa sababu Mungu kaumba ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya kufanyika.

Sasa, kwa nini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote karuhusu mabaya kuweza kufanyika?

Kwa msingi huu, kwa mtu anayeamini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote kaumba ulimwengu, jibu la kimzizi kabisa lililo comprehensive la swali lako la "mabaya yamesababishw ana nani" ni Mungu.

Ikiwa Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote ndiye kaumba ulimwengu ambao mabaya yanaweza kufanyika, yeye ndiye kasababisha mabaya.

Sasa, tunarudi kulekule kwenye swali la msingi.

Kwa nini Mungu kaumba ulimwengu unaoweza kuruhusu mabaya wakati aliweza kuumba ulimwengu ambao

Kwa nini swali liwe nani?

Kuna mabaya mengine ni majanga ya kiasili, matetemeko ya ardhi, maporomoko ya matope kutoka milimani.

Ni natural forces tu, kwa nini unauliza "nani"?

Inaonekana kama unataka kuwalaumu watu kwa mabaya wanayofanya, nakuonesha kuna mabaya ambayo hayasababishiwi na watu.

Na hata hayo mabaya unayoweza kusema yanayosababishwa na watu, kama unaamini Mungu kaumba ulimwengu, watu wameweza kufanya mabaya tu kwa sababu Mungu kaumba ulimwengu unaoruhusu mabaya kufanyika.

Sasa, kwa nini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote karuhusu mabaya kuweza kufanyika?

Kwa msingi huu, kwa mtu anayeamini Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote kaumba ulimwengu, jibu la kimzizi kabisa lililo comprehensive la swali lako la "mabaya yamesababishwa na nani" ni Mungu.

Ikiwa Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote ndiye kaumba ulimwengu ambao mabaya yanaweza kufanyika, yeye ndiye kasababisha mabaya. Sisi wengine wote tukifanya mabaya ni kwa sababu tumewezeshwa kufanya mabaya kwa sababu ulimwengu aliouumba Mungu unaruhusu mabaya kufanyika.

Sasa, tunarudi kulekule kwenye swali la msingi.

Kwa nini Mungu kaumba ulimwengu unaoweza kuruhusu mabaya wakati aliweza kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauruhusu mabaya?

Kwahiyo kama Mungu hayupo na mabaya yapo,inabidi tumuulize mwanadamu ambaye yupo..

Nakuuliza sasa

Kiranga kwanini kuna mabaya?

 

[Kiranga]

Kwahiyo kama Mungu hayupo na mabaya yapo,inabidi tumuulize mwanadamu ambaye yupo..

Nakuuliza sasa

Kiranga kwanini kuna mabaya?

Kuna mabaya kwa sababu Mungu hayupo.

Kwa sababu ulimwengu usio na Mungu haukatazi mabaya kuwepo. Ulimwengu huo uko totally consistent na mabaya kuwapo.There is no logical inconsistency or contradiction kwa ulimwengu usio na Mungu kuruhusu mabaya.

Ila, ulimwengu wenye kuruhusu mabaya kuwepo na Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote kuwepo, ni contradiction.

Kwa sababu, kutoka kwa perspective ya ulimwengu, hayo unayoyaita mabaya, si mabaya.Ulimwengu haujali. Wewe na tope la mlimani wote ni sawa tu, wote ni atoms tu. Wewe ukilima unalichakata tope kwa natural laws, tope likikuangukia mpaka kukuua napo (kutoka kwa perspective ya ulimwengu) ni sawa tu, tope linakuchakata wewe kwa natural laws. Ulimwengu haujali, hauoni baya wala zuri, unakwenda kwa kufuata natural laws tu.

The universe is impersonal. It is not anthropocentric.

Ulimwengu hauko hapa kuku protect wewe in any special way, you are just another bundle of atoms, a sophisticated and thinking one, but just a bundle of atoms nevertheless.

Kwa sababu ulimwengu haukuumbwa na intelligent design ya Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote, ambayo, logically, ingezuia mabaya kuwepo.

Ulimwengu unafuata sheria za kiasili tu.

Kama kuna mlima una matope, na mvua nyingi zinanyesha, matope yanazidi uzito mlimani, yanaanguka chini kwa kufuata nguvu za gravity, hayajali kwamba hapo chini ya mlima kuna nyumba za watu, yanaua watu 70.

Tunapata msiba wa kitaifa.

Ulimwengu haujali hapo chini kuna nyumba za watu, kwa sababu haujaumbwa na Mungu, unaenda kwa kufuata natural laws tu.

 

[Faana]

Nyinyi manabii mnao vaa visuluali vimebana, manabii mmesuka rasta, manabii mnawapiga mateke wagonjwa, manabii mnawalisha majani waumini, manabii mnawanywesha mafuta ya taa waumini, manabii mnataka sadaka kuazia elfu Tsh 30,000 na kuendelea, je ni kweli hizo nguvu/mamlaka mmepewa na Mwenyezi mungu?? 🤔🤔

"Kwa maana watatokea makristo wa uongo na manabii wa uongo watafanya miujiza mikubwa na maajabu ili kuwapoteza, kama ingewezekana, hata wateule."

Ushirikina Kigoma: Mwanamke aliyefariki Oktoba 2018 na kuzikwa aonekana akiwa hai

Jeshi la Polisi Mkoani Kigoma limetoa ufafanuzi juu ya taarifa za Mwanamke mmoja wa miaka 40 Mkazi wa Kazegunga ambaye anadaiwa kuonekana November mwaka huu baada ya kufariki October 17,2018 wakati akijifungua Mtoto katika Hospitali ya Baptist iliyopo Halmashauri ya Manispaa Kigoma Ujiji na...

www.jamiiforums.com

 

[siasa ms]

Kuna mabaya kwa sababu Mungu hayupo.

Kwa sababu ulimwengu haukatazi mabaya kuwepo.

Kwa sababu, kutoka kwa perspective ya ulimwengu, hayo unayoyaita mabaya, si mabaya.Ulimwengu haujali. Wewe na tope la mlimani wote ni sawa tu, wote ni atoms tu. Wewe ukilima unalichakata tope kwa natural laws, tope likikuangukia mpaka kukuua napo (kutoka kwa perspective ya ulimwengu) ni sawa tu, tope linakuchakata wewe kwa natural laws. Ulimwengu haujali, hauoni baya wala zuri, unakwenda kwa kufuata natural laws tu.

The universe is impersonal. It is not anthropocentric.

Ulimwengu hauko hapa kuku protect wewe in any special way, you are just another bundle of atoms, a sophisticated and thinking one, but just a bundle of atoms nevertheless.

Kwa sababu ulimwengu haukuumbwa na intelligent design ya Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote, ambayo, logically, ingezuia mabaya kuwepo.

Ulimwengu unafuata sheria za kiasili tu.

Kama kuna mlima una matope, na mvua nyingi zinanyesha, matope yanazidi uzito mlimani, yanaanguka chini kwa kufuata nguvu za gravity, hayajali kwamba hapo chini ya mlima kuna nyumba za watu, yanaua watu 70.

Tunapata msiba wa kitaifa.

Ulimwengu haujali hapo chini kuna nyumba za watu, kwa sababu haujaumbwa na Mungu, unaenda kwa kufuata natural laws tu.

Kwahiyo mabaya yanasababishwa na natural laws na siyo kutokuwepo kwa Mungu?

 

[Kiranga]

Kwahiyo mabaya yanasababishwa na natural laws na siyo kutokuwepo kwa Mungu?

Natural laws ni natural laws kwa sababu Mungu hayupo. Mungu angekuwapo, zingekuwa laws za Mungu, si natural laws.

Natural laws maana yake ni laws zinazotokana na nature, si Mungu.

Mabaya yanasababishwa na natural laws, kwa sababu Mungu hayupo.

Natural laws hazijali mabaya na mazuri, zinajali mambo mengine kama entropy, some mathematical elegance, economy, whatever that is making them tick, water fall down not up, time go forward not back etc.

Mungu angekuwapo, angefanya laws zake zizuie mabaya kuwezekana kuwepo.

 

[siasa ms]

Natural laws ni natural laws kwa sababu Mungu hayupo. Mungu angekuwapo, zingekuwa laws za Mungu, si natural laws.

Natural laws maana yake ni laws zinazotokana na nature, si Mungu.

Mabaya yanasababishwa na natural laws, kwa sababu Mungu hayupo.

Mungu angekuwapo, angefanya laws zake zizuie mabaya kuwezekana kuwepo.

what are natural laws?

 

[Kiranga]

what are natural laws?

Mbona nishakujibu hili swali katika post uliyonukuu?

Nimeandika:

"Natural laws maana yake ni laws zinazotokana na nature, si Mungu."

 

[siasa ms]

Mbona nishakujibu hili swali katika post uliyonukuu?

Nimeandika:

"Natural laws maana yake ni laws zinazotokana na nature, si Mungu."

Na nature inatokana na nini?

 

[Kiranga]

Na nature inatokana na nini?

Kwenye kuichunguza nature, swali la kutokana na nini linakosa umuhimu.

Kwa sababu, ukiichunguza sana nature, suala zima la causality, nini kinasababisha nini, ambalo ni muhimu sana katika level yetu, ukienda deep katika Quantum Physics, linapoteza umuhimu wake.

Kwa sababu, hata time yenyewe inavunjika na kupotea, na mambo yanaanza kuwa kama ya ajabu kwa uelewa wetu.

Katika Quantum Causal Loop, inawezekana chanzo A kinachosababisha matokeo B nacho kikawa ni matokeo ya matokeo yake B.

Yani cause A gives effect B, while also effect B is the cause of A.

Yani baba yako kakuzaa wewe, na wakati huo huo, wewe ndiye baba wa baba yako, mnazaana tu bila mwanzo wala mwisho.

Kwa hivyo, si ajabu kuambiwa kwamba nature inatokana na nature.

Yani, unaweza kuwa unatafuta chanzo cha nature sawasawa na kuzunguka dunia nzima ukitafuta sehemu ilipoanzia dunia, ukajikuta unazunguka na kurudi ulipotoka bila ya kupata sehemu ambayo dunia imeanzia.

Soma zaidi Quantum causal loops


News Release 9-Feb-2021

Quantum causal loops​

Peer-Reviewed Publication
Université libre de Bruxelles









image: Quantum causal loops view more

Credit: NeoLeo/ShutterStock.com

Causal reasoning is ubiquitous - from physics to medicine, economics and social sciences, as well as in everyday life. Whenever we press the button, the bell rings, and we think that the pressing of the button causes the bell to ring. Normally, causal influence is assumed to only go one way - from cause to effect - and never back from the effect to the cause: the ringing of the bell does not cause the pressing of the button that triggered it. Now researchers from the University of Oxford and the Université libre de Bruxelles have developed a theory of causality in quantum theory, according to which cause-effect relations can sometimes form cycles. This theory offers a novel understanding of exotic processes in which events do not have a definite causal order. The study has been published in Nature Communications.

One of the ways in which quantum theory defies classical intuitions is by challenging our ideas of causality. Quantum entanglement can be used to produce correlations between distant experiments that are known to evade satisfactory causal explanations within the framework of classical causal models. Furthermore, a unification of quantum theory and gravity is expected to allow situations in which the causal structure of spacetime is subject to quantum indefiniteness, suggesting that events need not be causally ordered at all. Recently, a team of researchers from Oxford and Brussels has developed a theory of causality in quantum theory, in which causal concepts are defined in intrinsically quantum terms rather than pertaining to an emergent classical level of measurement outcomes. This has offered, in particular, a causal understanding of the correlations produced by entangled states. Now, they have generalized the theory to allow causal influence to go in cycles, providing a causal understanding of processes with events in indefinite causal order.

"The key idea behind our proposal is that causal relations in quantum theory correspond to influence through so-called unitary transformations - these are the types of transformations that describe the evolutions of isolated quantum systems. This is closely analogous to an approach to classical causal models that assumes underlying determinism and situates causal relations in functional dependences between variables," says Jonathan Barrett from the University of Oxford.

The main idea of the new study is to apply the same principle to processes in which the order of operations can be dynamical or even indefinite, seeing as a large class of these processes can be understood as arising from unitary transformations, too, just not ones that unfold in an ordinary sequence.

"Previously, processes with indefinite causal order were typically regarded as simply incompatible with any causal account. Our work shows that a major class of them - those that can be understood as arising from unitary processes and which are believed to be the ones that could have a physical realisation in nature - could in fact be seen as having a definite causal structure, albeit one involving cycles," says Robin Lorenz, a corresponding author of the study.

"The idea of cyclic causal structures may seem counterintuitive, but the quantum process framework within which it is formulated guarantees that it is free of logical paradoxes, such as the possibility of going back in time and killing your younger self," explains Ognyan Oreshkov from the Université libre de Bruxelles. "Exotic as they appear, some of these scenarios are actually known to have experimental realisations in which the variables of interest are delocalized in time."

Does this mean that spacetime does not have the acyclic causal structure it is normally assumed to have? Not exactly, since in the mentioned experiments the events that are causally related in a cyclic fashion are not local in spacetime. However, the researchers believe that the causal structure of spacetime itself could become cyclic in this quantum way at the intersection of quantum theory and general relativity, where analogous processes to those realizable in the lab are expected, but with the events being local in their respective spacetime reference frames.

 

[RoDrick RaY]

Toa sadaka

 

[siasa ms]

Natural laws ni natural laws kwa sababu Mungu hayupo. Mungu angekuwapo, zingekuwa laws za Mungu, si natural laws.

Natural laws maana yake ni laws zinazotokana na nature, si Mungu.

Mabaya yanasababishwa na natural laws, kwa sababu Mungu hayupo.

Natural laws hazijali mabaya na mazuri, zinajali mambo mengine kama entropy, some mathematical elegance, economy, whatever that is making them tick, water fall down not up, time go forward not back etc.

Mungu angekuwapo, angefanya laws zake zizuie mabaya kuwezekana kuwepo.

Kwahiyo Mungu alitakiwa azikute hizo natural laws?

Natural laws ni natural laws kwa sababu Mungu hayupo. Mungu angekuwapo, zingekuwa laws za Mungu, si natural laws.

Natural laws maana yake ni laws zinazotokana na nature, si Mungu.

Mabaya yanasababishwa na natural laws, kwa sababu Mungu hayupo.

Natural laws hazijali mabaya na mazuri, zinajali mambo mengine kama entropy, some mathematical elegance, economy, whatever that is making them tick, water fall down not up, time go forward not back etc.

Mungu angekuwapo, angefanya laws zake zizuie mabaya kuwezekana kuwepo.

 

[Nyafwili]

Ushirikina Kigoma: Mwanamke aliyefariki Oktoba 2018 na kuzikwa aonekana akiwa hai

Jeshi la Polisi Mkoani Kigoma limetoa ufafanuzi juu ya taarifa za Mwanamke mmoja wa miaka 40 Mkazi wa Kazegunga ambaye anadaiwa kuonekana November mwaka huu baada ya kufariki October 17,2018 wakati akijifungua Mtoto katika Hospitali ya Baptist iliyopo Halmashauri ya Manispaa Kigoma Ujiji na...

www.jamiiforums.com

Mkuu, hivyo ni viini macho tu, Mungu hawezi kuua mtu mwenye umri mdogo, Kwa sababu hana kazi naye huko mbinguni.

 

[Kiranga]

Kwahiyo Mungu alitakiwa azikute hizo natural laws?

Katika ulimwengu ambao umeumbwa na Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote, yeye ndiye angeziweka hizo laws.

Na kwa sifa zake za uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote, angeweka laws zinazozuia mabaya.

Tungeona ushahidi kwenye ulimwengu ambao mabaya hayawezekani.

Sasa hivi, tunaona tuna ulimwengu ambao mabaya yanawezekana.

Ushahidi huu, unatuonesha kuwa, hizi laws tulizonanzo zinazouendesha ulimwengu, ni natural laws tu, hazitoki kwa Mungu.

Zingetoka kwa Mungu, zisingeruhusu ulimwengu uwezekane kuwa na mabaya.

 

[Nyafwili]

Sizungumzii imani hapa, nazungumzia facts, mambo yaliyopita imani yanayotaka uthibitisho. Imani haihitaji uthibitisho wala haifai kuhojiwa.

Unaelewa tofauti hapo?

. Sawa mkuu nimekuelewa sana,

. Sasa huo uthibitisho wa mambo yaliyopita utayapata vipi?

. Nina uhakika kabisa huwezi kupata hizo fact/uthibitisho, Na ukitaka kujua uthibitisho lazima utumie historia...

 

[siasa ms]

Katika ulimwengu ambao umeumbwa na Mungu mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote, yeye ndiye angeziweka hizo laws.

Na kwa sifa zake za uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote, angeweka laws zinazozuia mabaya.

Tungeona ushahidi kwenye ulimwengu ambao mabaya hayawezekani.

Sasa hivi, tunaona tuna ulimwengu ambao mabaya yanawezekana.

Ushahidi huu, unatuonesha kuwa, hizi laws tulizonanzo zinazouendesha ulimwengu, ni natural laws tu, hazitoki kwa Mungu.

Zingetoka kwa Mungu, zisingeruhusu ulimwengu uwezekane kuwa na mabaya.

Wewe yametoka wap?

 

[Kiranga]

. Sawa mkuu nimekuelewa sana,

. Sasa huo uthibitisho wa mambo yaliyopita utayapata vipi?

. Nina uhakika kabisa huwezi kupata hizo fact/uthibitisho, Na ukitaka kujua uthibitisho lazima utumie historia...

Uthibitisho unapatikana kwa logical consistency.

Mtu anakwambia kuna Mungu, mjuzi wa yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote, lakini Mungu huyo, aliyeweza kuumba ulimwengu usioruhusu mabaya by fiat, kwa neno tu, bila gharama yoyote, hakuumba ulimwengu huo ambao mabaya hayawezekani, kaumba ulimwengu huu ambao mabaya yanawezekana.

Hapo tunaona contradiction, ambayo tukiichimba sana inatupa hitimisho kwamba Mungu huyu hayupo na hawezi kuwapo, ni muhusika wa hadithi z akutungwa na watu tu.