Je! Mungu ni yule yule?
Je! Mungu ni yule yule?
- Thread starter RGforever
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Kiranga
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Kuna wengine nawakera sana niliwaumzisha kidogo.
Zamu yao ya kukereka inaweza kuwa imerudi.
mtanganyika wa kweli
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pumba.
8691jakigili
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Hoja tunazojenga: ya kosmolojia ya chanzo na matokeo, usanifu hauji bila msanifu, uhai haujawahi kuwepo bila chenye uhai, n.k. hajawahi kuzitolea majibu sahihi; zaidi ya kusema kwa nini mabaya yapo duniani? Swali la msingi sio tabia na jinsi Mungu anavyofanya au asivyofanya. Bali je yupo? There is a difference.
Kiranga, the existence of evil doesnt disprove existence of God. Ni kama vile uwepo wa kivuli usivyopinga existence ya jua. Huwezi kusema kama jua lipo, mbona kuna kivuli na hapohapo uvvonclude kwamba jua halipo kwa kuwa kivuli kipo. Huoni kwamba uwepo wa kivuli ni proof tosha ya uwepo wa jua. Evil ipo so long as you exercise your freelwill against God. God is the source of all Good. Anything short of him or outside him is evil.
Analogy utaiona when you speak about light and darkness. Darkness is nothing. You can not speak of darkness unless you speak of light. Darkness is the absence of light.
The problem of evil and its existence, sio kosa la Mungu kwamba imekuaje ameuumba ulimwengu wenye matatizo, bali sisi tuliopewa freewill tunapoachagua kufanya kinyume na Mungu ndipo evil huzaliwa.
Tunaoamini maandiko, tunasoma toka kitabu cha Mwanzo kwamba kila kitu Mungu alichoumba, ni chema hata shetani aliumbwa akiwa Malaika wa nuru, alikuwa shetani baada ya kutumia uhuru wake kufanya yaliyo kinyume na Mungu.
Well said brother. The question itself is nonsense, that means it's unanswerable.
Kiranga
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The existence of evil proves an omnipotent, omniscient and all benevolent God does not exist.
Because it contradicts that God.
Mfano wako wa jua na kivuli unaonesha hujaelewa point yangu ya contradiction.
Kivuli haki contradict uwepo wa jua, ni ushahidi kwamba jua lipo. Sasa utatumiaje kivuli kusema jua halipo wakati kuwepo kwa kivuli haku contradict uwepo wa jua?
Evil ina contradict uwepo wa an all loving, all capable and all knowing God.
Hii point ni ndogo sana, ina umuhimu sana, ila watu wengi waliolelewa na kufundishwa kuwepo kwa Mungu ni vigumu sana kuielewa.
Narudia tena, huyu Mungu mnayemsema anajua yote, anaweza yote na ana upendo wote, angekuwepo, kusingewezekana kuwepo na baya lolote katika uumbaji wake.
Kuwezekana kuwepo kwa mabaya kunaonesha Mungu huyu hayupo. Kuna m contradict.
Hii ni logical contradiction sawasawa na kusema square root ya 2 ni 10 au kuna pembetatu yenye pembe sita.
Ukisema jua linaleta kivuli, hapo hakuna contradiction. Sasa unalinganishaje proposition ambayo haina contradiction na ambayo haina contradiction?
Ulichofanya ni sawa na kusema "Square root ya 2 ni kumi -proposition yenye contradiction) kwa sababu 1 x1 ni 1 (proposition ambayo haina contradiction)".
This is a logical non sequitar, unalinganisha na kuunganisha vitu viwili ambavyo logically havina uhusiano.
Umeelewa kwa nini nasema dhana ya kuwepo kwa Mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote inakuwa contradicted na ulimwengu huu tunaouona ambao unaruhusu mabaya kuwepo na hivyo Mungu huyo hakuumba ulimwengu huu na angekuwepo asingeruhusu ulimwengu huu uwepo, na hivyo hayupo?
Kiranga
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dmatemu
Habari ya kwamba tuna free will ni uongo mwingine ambao una contradict uwepo wa Mungu anayejua yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote.
Chukulia mfano.
Mnasema Mungu anajua maisha ya mtu tangu huyo mtu hajazaliwa.
Anajua kwamba siku fulani mtu huyu atafanya dhambi fulani. Kabla huyo mtu hajazaliwa.
Sasa mtu huyo akizaliwa, ana uhuru wa kuepuka aishi na siku ile ikifika asifanye dhambi ile?
Aakiweza kuepuka, hapo Mungu kweli ana uwezo wa kujua yote?
Asipoweza kuepuka, kweli huyu mtu ana free will au anaishi tu kama vile Mungu alivyoona/ panga?
Pia, binadamu ambay hachagui azaliwe au asizaliwe, akizaliwa azaliwe na wazazi gani, wa daraja gani la maisha, azaliwe wapi, azaliwe na afya gani, azaliwe na uwezo gani wa kiakili, aishi miaka mingapi, etc, huwezi kusema ana free will. Mtoto anayezaliwa Manzese kwa mfuga mbwa uwanja wa fisi kwa mama malaya muuza pombe chafu uwezo wake wa kupanga maisha mpaka awe rais wa Marekani ni practically nill.
Hilo awali.
Lakini pia, hata ukisema dhambi imekuja duniani kwa sababu Mungu kawapa freewill watu, wao ndio wakaleta dhambi, haya majanga ya asili nayo kwa nini Mungu wenu huyo kaumba ulimwengu ambao unayaachia, watu wasio na hatia wanaumia?
Chukulia tetemeko la ardhi linaloumiza na kuua watu lukuki, mpaka watoto wachanga.
Huyo Mungu wenu alishindwa kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauna matetemeko haya?
Kama alishindwa, je ni kweli ana uwezo wote?
La, kama hakushindwa, kataka tu mwenyewe hivyo, je ni kweli ana upendo wote?
Habari ya kwamba tuna free will ni uongo mwingine ambao una contradict uwepo wa Mungu anayejua yote, mwenye uwezo wote na upendo wote.
Chukulia mfano.
Mnasema Mungu anajua maisha ya mtu tangu huyo mtu hajazaliwa.
Anajua kwamba siku fulani mtu huyu atafanya dhambi fulani. Kabla huyo mtu hajazaliwa.
Sasa mtu huyo akizaliwa, ana uhuru wa kuepuka aishi na siku ile ikifika asifanye dhambi ile?
Aakiweza kuepuka, hapo Mungu kweli ana uwezo wa kujua yote?
Asipoweza kuepuka, kweli huyu mtu ana free will au anaishi tu kama vile Mungu alivyoona/ panga?
Pia, binadamu ambay hachagui azaliwe au asizaliwe, akizaliwa azaliwe na wazazi gani, wa daraja gani la maisha, azaliwe wapi, azaliwe na afya gani, azaliwe na uwezo gani wa kiakili, aishi miaka mingapi, etc, huwezi kusema ana free will. Mtoto anayezaliwa Manzese kwa mfuga mbwa uwanja wa fisi kwa mama malaya muuza pombe chafu uwezo wake wa kupanga maisha mpaka awe rais wa Marekani ni practically nill.
Hilo awali.
Lakini pia, hata ukisema dhambi imekuja duniani kwa sababu Mungu kawapa freewill watu, wao ndio wakaleta dhambi, haya majanga ya asili nayo kwa nini Mungu wenu huyo kaumba ulimwengu ambao unayaachia, watu wasio na hatia wanaumia?
Chukulia tetemeko la ardhi linaloumiza na kuua watu lukuki, mpaka watoto wachanga.
Huyo Mungu wenu alishindwa kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauna matetemeko haya?
Kama alishindwa, je ni kweli ana uwezo wote?
La, kama hakushindwa, kataka tu mwenyewe hivyo, je ni kweli ana upendo wote?
Kiranga
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Which question is nonsense and why is it nonsense?
What is nonsense here, is believing in a self contradicting God idea.
On the one hand, your God is all powerful, all knowing and all loving. On the other hand, he created a universe in which all manners of evil is possible.
This is a stark contradiction.
It is like saying you believe in the existence of a geometrical figure which is, in an Euclidean plane, a triangle that has six angles.
There is no difference in these two belief systems.
They both believe in a self contradicting impossibility.
Je, unaelewa maana ya freewill? Kitu gani kimekufanya ujibu hii msg au kitu gani kimekufanya usingejibu hii msg? Nadhani hujaelewa maana ya freewill. Pia jua kwamba Mungu kukujua kwako na kujua kitu gani utafanya na kitu gani hautafanya has nothing to do with your freewill. You will still exercise your free will anyhow you like.
Hata haya mawazo yako na jinsi unavyoamini, ni kwa sababu una freewill, unless otherwize ingekua unaamini kama ulivyopangiwa kuamini, na hiyo ina maana ww ni robot. But God who is absolute Love in his essence, has created us with free will, that we have to love him because we choose to love him. True love is not forced.
Freewill has been a source of many evils (when we choose not to obey God and follow His commands), including yours of not believing in God. You are free to believe in anything, but that doesn't disprove the existence God. The existence of God doesn't depend on whether you believe He exists or not.
Kiranga
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Sina freewill.
Nataka kurudi mwaka 1982, siwezi kurudi mwaka huo, kwa sababu nimepangiwa tayari kwamba muda unaenda mbele tu, haurudi nyuma.
Sasa kama naishi katika ulimwengu ambao muda unaenda mbele tu, haurudi nyuma, na mimi nataka kurudi nyuma kwenye muda, siwezi, utasemaje nina freewill?
Kuna watu wana maisha magumu sana, wanasema "najuta kuzaliwa". Hawa wamejikuta tu wamezaliwa.Hawakuulizwa kama wanataka kuzaliwa au hawataki. Utasemaje wana freewill wakati wamejikuta tu wamezaliwa bila kukubali?
The central question here is that, a self contradicting proposition cannot exist in reality far and above theoretical postulations.
Your all knowing, all capable, all loving God creating a universe in which evil is possible idea is a self contradicting proposition.
Either such a God does not exist, or such a universe does not exist.
Such a universe exists, we see.
Therefore, such a God does not exist.
Zaidi, hujajibu hoja yangu ya evil inayotokea naturally, mfano tetemeko laardhi linaloua watoto wasio na hatia.
Kwa nini Mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote aumbe ulimwengu ambao kitu kama hicho kinawezekana wakati alikuwa na uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote wa kuumba ulimwengu ambao hilo haliwezekani?
Hujajibu swali hili.
So you want your freewill to be omnipotency? This is absurd bro, because there can not be two Omnipotents. You must be humble and you must submit. God is the sole ruler
The question that 'can God make a very huge stone that He can not lift' is a nonsense, because there can not be two OMNIPOTENTS. or God can not create a very big stone that he can't carry. He can either not create it or if he creates it that means he can also carry it.
Kiranga
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Your God is cobtradicted by so many questions, a different and real question is following.
If God exists, and this God knows all, is capable of all and is all loving.
And.
Therefore.
This God was capable of creating a world in which any sort if evil is impossible.
For the good enjoyment if his creations.
Why then, did tgat God not create that world in which evil is not possible?
If you answer God wanted to give us freewill, that answer is ibsufficient.
Even our so called freewill is limited.
Humans can't move backwards in time, can't chiose to be born or not. Can't choose to be birn by rich parents or poor. Can't choose to have DNA that is prone to diabetes or not.
So we have no freewill.
Quite apart from freewill, there us evil that is not related to freewill. Earthquakes killing infants and buryung them alive.
Why did God create a universe in which this is possible?
The question then begs to be asked. Why did God create a universe in whuch evil is possible instead of one in which evil is not possible?
Was God unable to create a world in whuch evil is not possible?
If he was unable, then he is not all capable.
Or.
Was God abke to create such a world, he simpky did not want to?
If that is the case then, he is not all loving.
Either way, an all loving, all capable, all knowinh God does not exist.
Kiranga
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First of all prove that Gid exists.
You can't logically say Gid is tge sole ruler if you can't even prove he exists.
Can you prove Gid exists?
Can you 1st prove that God doesnt exist? If you prove then we will talk from there
Nimkimbilie nani
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Pole ndugu unapotea
sayeir
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Kwa yoyote ambae anajifanya hataki kuamini uwepo wa mungu basi na afanye haya pale anapokerwa muue yoyote anae kukera kwasababu mungu wa kukuadhibu hayupo, tembea na mtoto wako ulie mzaa unapopatwa na matamanio kwasbb hutapata dhambi hakuna mungu wa kukua dhibu, hata mzazi wako muombe uchi kwasbb hakuna mungu atakae kupa dhambi ya kukuadhibu, fanya liwatwi lakini kama haitoshi dhulumu watu ua watu fanya baya lolote utakalo kwasbb hakuna dhambi wala hakuna mungu wa kuhukumu mabaya, lkn ikiwa huwezi kufanya haya basi usifikiri kwa kutumia mshipa wa mavi
Kiranga
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First of all, that which does not exist can hardly be disproved apart from logical proofs, such as proof by contradiction.
If a thief exists, ine can show fingerprints, video etc to show this person is a thief.
If a thief does not exist, one cannot show the same by fingerprints or video.
Because of this, the onus of proof is on the one saying something exists. Not on the one saying something dies not exists.
This is why, if the police says your house has illegal drugs, they get a search warrant to search your house until they find the drugs.
They don't ask you to prove that your house has no drugs.
If your house has no drugs, how can you prove that your house has no drugs?
Having said all that, I have proved by using "proof by contradiction" that an all knowing, all capable and all loving God creating a world in which evil is possible is a contradiction, therefore, that God cannot exist.
You have not removed that cintradiction.
Because you cant.
Because you have no way to do so.
Because your God does not exist.
You trying to prove that this God exists is akin to trying to prove that there is a triangle with six angles in plane Euclidean geometry.
You can't prove there is a triangle with six angles.
Because that is a contradiction, an impossibility.
Your God does not exist.
He is a figment of the human imagination.
Just like the triangle with six angles above.
You can talk about it, but talking about it as an idea does not make it existing.
You can talk about your God. But talking about him does not make him existing.