MDAHALO: M4C, Hatima ni Mageuzi au Mapinduzi?

[Shayu]

Utawala wa waadilifu upi? Tusidanganyane bana mimi naishi Tanzania. Na nilioandika ndio ukweli hata kama hamtaki kukubali. Mabadiliko ya kweli ni ya Fikra. Kama nilivyozungumza kama una akili utasoma kwa makini ili uelewe kama unafuata siasa tu basi endelea hivyo.

 

[sosoliso]

Nijuavyo mie maendeleo yatapatikana kwa kuondoa rushwa na upendeleo.. Kuondoa viongozi wabovu na waliogeuza vyeo kama mali yao.. Hayo yataletwa na mabadiliko.. Hayo mengine ati hawa watakuwa kama wale ni kauli za kuingiza tonge mdomoni.. Nimeielewa sana M4C mie.. Hakika italeta mabadiliko..

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Mchambuzi, desperation brings actions.. watu wetu wanaweza kuwa katika umaskini lakini bado hawajawa "desperate". Bado hatujafikia kwenye hiyo desperation ambayo in reality ndiyo inasababisha watu waamue kutenda. Sasa hivi tuko kwenye level ya chini sana ambayo ni contemplation.. tunatafakari tunachokiona na tunajaribu ku rationalize. We are trying to make sense of the insensible.

Wanasiasa na wana harakati wetu hawajaweza kuonesha kuwa tuko kwenye 'desperate situation'. Ni kwa sababu hii basi mapinduzi hayawezi kuja au kuletwa kwa sababu we are not in dire situation. Mageuzi yanaweza kuletwa lakini nayo yanakuwa precipitated na kutambua kuwa the 'status quo' CAN NOT and MUST NOT be maintained. So far tunaambiwa the status quo "CAN NOT" be maintained lakini haijajengwa hoja ya uthabiti (a firm argument) ya kwanini 'IT MUST NOT BE MAINTAINED'.

Lakini pia kuna jambo kubwa zaidi; CDM sasa hivi haijajiandaa na haijachukua hatua za kujiandaa kushinda uchaguzi mkuu wa 2015. Huwezi kushinda uchaguzi mkuu kwa kutegemea popular politics peke yake and popular politics enshrined in the personalities of the politicians. Popular politics inayofanyika sasa inahusiana na kuchukia CCM na utawala wake ulioshindwa siyo inayotokana na ajenga ya nini CDM wanataka kufanya. Utaona this is the major elements ambayo is missing na ndio sababu sasa hivi kufikiria CDM inaweza kushinda uchaguzi mkuu wa 2015. Katika uchelewaji huu wa CDM ushindi wa CCM unaweza ukawa mkubwa kidogo kulikow wa 2010.

Na wapo watu watakaoshtushwa! Not me of course.

 

[EMT]

Mkuu EMT,

Mtazamo wako kwamba ‘Swali Langu la Pili' Ndio Key Question' – nimependa mtazamo huo, na nakubaliana na wewe; Nadhani Suala la msingi hapa unalojaribu kulieleza ni Kwamba - Watanzania Wapo Katika Hali ya Kutojitambua, na ili waweze kujitambua, ni muhimu kwanza wapitiea Mapinduzi ya Fikra, halafu, ndio mabadiliko mengine yafuate; Je nipo sahihi kwa hili? Kama nipo sahihi, ni wajibu wa nani kuwasaidia wajitambue/wapitie MAPINDUZI YA FIKRA?

Ni wajibu wa Watanzania wenyewe kuwasaidia wale wasiojitambua kujitambua. Ni wajibu wangu, wewe na wengine. Lakini sidhani kama suala ni nani wa kuwasaidia kujitambua. Suala ni kama hao ambao hawajitambui wako tayari kusaidiwa katika kujitambua. Kwa mantiki hiyo basi sidhani kama Watanzania wako tayari kujitambua. Kama wakitaka kujitambua sidhani kama watakosa wa kuwasaidia kujitambua.

Nirudie maneno ya Nyerere uliyo-quote hapo juu but in reverse order: ["...Many in these countries are fools, to accept being ruled just like that. To be oppressed just like that when they have the force in numbers, they are fools (wapumbavu). So Tanzanians would be fools (wapumbavu), ****** (mazuzu), if they continue to accept to be oppressed by minority in their own country.."].

Kabla ya hapo anasema ["...To be sure, you few Waswahili, do you really expect to rule Tanzanians through coercion, When there is no hope, and then expect that they will sit quiet in peace? Peace is born of hope, when hope is gone, there will be social upheavals. I'd be surprised if these Tanzanians refuse to Rebel, why? When the majorities don't have any hope you are building a volcano. It is bound to erupt one day...."]

When is that day then? Not yet kwa sababu japokuwa kuna moshi wa hapa na pale kwenye volcano lakini bado Watanzania hawajaamua ku-erupt. Ni sawa na wale wanaoishi mabondeni, wakiambiwa waondoke mafuriko yanakuja, they simply don't care. Watangalia mawingu watasema hakuna dalili ya mvua nzito labda tusubiri hadi kesho kutwa mambo yatakuwa poa. Hawa ni sawa na wale waliosema tusubiri hadi 2010 mambo lazima yatanyooka tuu. Mambo hayakuvyooka sasa wanasema tusubiri 2015. Volcano iki-erupt ina-erupt. Haihairishiwi.

Kwa hoja hizi, mwitikio mkubwa wa UMMA kwa M4C tunao uona sasa hautoshi kuelezea Kiu au Nia waliyokuwa nayo watanzania katika kuleta mabadiliko yenye manufaa kwa maisha yao; Na Badala yake, mikusanyiko hii ni sawa na ile ya Misiba ambayo watu wanaenda kujumuika na wenzao kwa uchungu mkubwa kuomboleza tatizo linalowakabili, na baada ya maombolezo ya siku kadhaa kialaiki, taratibu akili uanza kuhamia kwenye matukio mengine, na siku chache baada ya kutawanyika, wanarejea katika hali za maisha yao ya awali, na siku zinasonga mbele. Je katika hili, pia nipo sahihi? Kama nipo sahihi, kwa mtazamo wako, Hali hii itaendelea Mpaka lini na nani anafaidika na hali hii in the Long Run – Chadema au CCM? Again – Long Run.

That's right! Ukizungukazunguka mitaani, it clearly shows that people really want things to change. But people have always wanted things to be better than they are. Haven't they? Hakuna mtu ambaye angetaka kuwa hapo alipo regardless how good things are. No matter how good we ever have it, we will always want it to be better, and when is better, even best. That is normal kwa binadamu yoyote yule.

But the other side of the coin is the people's willingness to change themselves. This is the clincher. This is where it gets really tough because despite how good it could be people are very rarely willing to change themselves. Take, for example, a frog in water comparison, a frog will jump out of a pot of boiling water but if the water starts at room temperature and is brought to a boil what do you have? A cooked frog. The water in the pot is boiling up but we don't want to jump out of it. Instead, we are blaming the pot. We will end up being cooked up in the pot just like the frog.

Hali hii itaendelea hadi pale Watanzania watakapo-jump out of the pot hata kama maji bado ni ya uvuguvugu. In the long run sioni ambaye atanufaika na hili. In the short term yes, wapo wanaonufaika tena sana tuu. But in the long run, hapa duniani tunapita tuu. Aliyeficha mamilioni Uswisi atakuja kufukiwa kwenye shimo lililo na vipimo sawa n yule aliyeficha sh. 200 chini ya mto wake wa kulalia. Kuna mifano mingi wala sihitaji kuitaja hapa. At the end of the road it is not whether CCM or Chadema will benefit from it but whether Watanzania watanufaika vipi kwa kuendelea kutojitambua.

 

[Mchambuzi]

Mchambuzi, desperation brings actions.. watu wetu wanaweza kuwa katika umaskini lakini bado hawajawa "desperate". Bado hatujafikia kwenye hiyo desperation ambayo in reality ndiyo inasababisha watu waamue kutenda. Sasa hivi tuko kwenye level ya chini sana ambayo ni contemplation.. tunatafakari tunachokiona na tunajaribu ku rationalize. We are trying to make sense of the insensible.

Nakubaliana na wewe, EMT na mdau mwingine nimesahau jina, wamelijadili hili pia vizuri hapo awali, hasa inference yake juu ya dhana nzima ya mwamko wa Mapinduzi ya fikra kwanza kabla ya mapinduzi ya aina yoyote mengine; nadhani hata kwako, inference hapa ni Mapinduzi ya Fikra na vile vile Watanzania kujitambua awali ya mengine yote;

Wanasiasa na wana harakati wetu hawajaweza kuonesha kuwa tuko kwenye 'desperate situation'. Ni kwa sababu hii basi mapinduzi hayawezi kuja au kuletwa kwa sababu we are not in dire situation. Mageuzi yanaweza kuletwa lakini nayo yanakuwa precipitated na kutambua kuwa the 'status quo' CAN NOT and MUST NOT be maintained. So far tunaambiwa the status quo "CAN NOT" be maintained lakini haijajengwa hoja ya uthabiti (a firm argument) ya kwanini 'IT MUST NOT BE MAINTAINED'.

Mimi nina mtazamo tofauti katika hili; katika suala la Mageuzi (tofauti na Mapinduzu), the Status Quo stays intact, this is almost a principle, na ndio maana wahisani na wawakilishi wao in the context of Liberalization, Marketization & Privatization wapo very keen kuhakikisha kwamba wanatuletea reforms ambazo hazipelekei a radical regime change itakayoweza poteza ASSETS za wakubwa hawa, especially strategic interests zao kama vile rasilimali, na suala zima la geopolitics kwani wanafahamu kwamba a small mistake might put Tanzania into the hands of Iran, China etc, and we all know madhara ya hili kwa wakubwa hawa wa magharibi;

Ndio maana tutazidi kuona mageuzi yanayoheshimu soko huru na ubepari kama mama mkwe, bila ya kujali uholela uliopo, na hata kama Chadema wataingia madarakani 2015, wao pia wataendelea na mageuzi yale yale - Macro Economic Stability, Political Reforms to enhance Liberal Democracy, Public Finance Reforms to ensure it adds value to economic fundamentals, hasa in terms of investment climate facilitation and debt servicing, etc etc; Ikulu ya Chadema sana sana watakuwa tofauti KIUFANISI, not in terms of Content kwani watabeba content ya reforms hizi hizi za CCM na Serikali yake under the auspices of the World Bank and the IMF; Wakubwa hawa (IMF, World Bank), na wahisani kwa ujumla hawataki kuona Tanzania inatumbukia kwenye janga kama la North Africa (the Arab spring), na ni katika mgongo huu ndio CCM inaponea chupu chupu;

Lakini pia kuna jambo kubwa zaidi; CDM sasa hivi haijajiandaa na haijachukua hatua za kujiandaa kushinda uchaguzi mkuu wa 2015. Huwezi kushinda uchaguzi mkuu kwa kutegemea popular politics peke yake and popular politics enshrined in the personalities of the politicians. Popular politics inayofanyika sasa inahusiana na kuchukia CCM na utawala wake ulioshindwa siyo inayotokana na ajenga ya nini CDM wanataka kufanya. Utaona this is the major elements ambayo is missing na ndio sababu sasa hivi kufikiria CDM inaweza kushinda uchaguzi mkuu wa 2015. Katika uchelewaji huu wa CDM ushindi wa CCM unaweza ukawa mkubwa kidogo kulikow wa 2010. Na wapo watu watakaoshtushwa! Not me of course.

Nakubaliana na wewe katika hili; ndio maana kule kwenye mjadala wako mwingine unaoendelea juu ya Membe and his candidature, nimetoa maoni kwamba haijalishi CCM inamsimamisha nani, chini ya kanuni ya sasa ya mshindi ni mshindi, CCM itashinda tu hata kama mtu mbovu kabisa ndiye atakayeteuliwa kuwa mgombea kwa tiketi ya CCM 2015, as long as chama kitakuwa nyuma yake, hawezi kukosa ushindi wa 50.01% huku the rest 49.99% ikigawanyika kwa Chadema na vyama vingine vya upinzani; Umetaja masuala ya Chadema kutojiandaa for 2015, mimi naamini kwamba among the issues katika hili ni suala la Kanuni ya Mshindi ni Mshindi kuendelea kubakia intact; Kwa mwendo huu, sio wewe tu hautashangaa CCM kushinda 2015, mimi vile vile..., lakini mbali ya kutoshangaa, nina matarajio ya ushindi wa CCM pamoja na uchwara uliojaa ndani ya Chama hiki tawala;

 

[Kobello]

Mchambuzi,

..Thank u.

..binafsi nimekuelewa, lakini wasiwasi wangu ni kwa umati wa wa-Tz walioko vijijini ambao ndiyo wanaotakiwa kuya-execute hayo mapinduzi/mageuzi unayoyazungumzia.

..zaidi nakubaliana na wewe kuhusu umuhimu wa wananchi kuweza kutambua na kuwa na uelewa zaidi juu ya HAKI na WAJIBU wao kama raia wa Tanzania.

..mwisho, kuna ulazima wa sisi kama taifa kuamua tunataka kujenga jamii au taifa la namna gani. Horace Kolimba alipozungumzia CCM kukosa dira alikuwa anazungumzia CCM kukiuka misingi ya kuanzishwa kwa chama hicho.

Huu mstari umetulia.
Je, bila kupotosha mada, unadhani sisi kama taifa tunataka kujenga jamii ya namna gani? Naona wengi wetu humu jamvini hatuongelei hilo.

M4C haizungumzii ubadilishaji wa mfumo wa uchumi. Badala yake inazungumzia ubadhirifu wa maliasili zetu, rushwa na ukiukwaji wa haki za binadamu.


Hii inamaanisha kuwa sera zilizopo hazitekelezeki au hazifai kabisa kuwepo? Whats the alternative?


Na mkizungumzia kuwa bora tu CCM iondoke madarakani, unafikiri hiyo line inarindima miongoni mwa wananchi? Keeping in mind that a poor soul can easily be corrupted (Pilau, kapelo na khanga).

 

[Mwakitobile]

MOVEMENT 4 CHAGA BITE ngastuka-machale kundesa

 

[Mchambuzi]

EMT,

Asante kwa somo lako zuri; Nimepata masuala matatu muhimu sana katika hoja zako nayo ni: Kwanza ni suala la Volcano – kwamba ikiwa tayari to erupt, ina erupt tu, eruption sio kitu cha kuairishwa; Pili, hoja kwamba ‘no matter how good things are or get, it is in human nature to ask or dream for more'; na Tatu, ni kuhusu the Frog in the boiling pot;

Nikianza na suala la Volcano…, sidhani kama nitakuwa nimekosea nikisema kwamba kwa ujumla wake, tatizo linalowakabili watanzania, au pengine changamoto kubwa ni UJINGA WAO; Na ndio maana Ujinga ni moja ya mambo makubwa ambayo Nyerere declared ni maadui katika Maendeleo, na suala hili alilivalia njuga wakati wote kulitokomeza; Ni hadi pale UJINGA miongoni mwa watanzania utakapopungua ndio UMMA utaweza KUAMKA; na naungana na hoja yako kwamba UMMA lazima uwe tayari kusaidiwa kujitambua – lakini Main Agent of Change in this Agent in my belief, ni KUPUNGUA KWA UJINGA, ambao kwa sasa umetapakaa katika kila kona ya nchi yetu; Iwapo hadi hapa unakubaliana na mimi, Kama tunakubaliana hadi hapa, swali linalofuatia ni je, ni Jukumu la Nani kupunguza Huu Ujinga miongoni mwa UMMA, na je una faida Kisiasa kwa CCM au ni Liability? Sitegemei majibu kutoka kwako juu ya hili, ni suala tu la kutafakari;

Kuhusu hoja yako kwamba it is in human nature to ask for more and more no matter how much better it gets…; Kimsingi nakubaliana na wewe katika hili, kwani hata kwenye nchi za wenzetu zilizoendelea kiuchumu, huwa tunaona machafuko ya hapa na pale ya UMMA ukidai MORE Political, Economic and Social Justice; Lakini pamoja na ukweli huu, binafsi nadhani bado kuna Certain Threshold ambayo lazima kama Taifa, tuiweke sawa kabla hatujasema kwa kujiamini kwamba tumefanikisha hili au lile..; Kwa mfano, inasikitisha kuona nchi ndogo kama Rwanda ikiendelea kufanikiwa na sera yake kuondokana na nyuma za udongo na nyumba za nyasi sambamba na target waliyojiwekea; Sisi tunashindwa nini kufanikisha mambo ya msingi kama haya? Yapo masuala mengi in terms of basic needs ambayo tukiamua kama taifa kuyawekea priority na commitment, maisha ya watanzania yatakuwa bora sana ndani ya kipindi kifupi tu, hata miaka 20 inaweza ikawa ni mingi;

Na mwisho ni kuhusu suala la Frog in the boiling Pot; umetoa mfano mzuri sana kwani mfano huu fits very well na hulka yetu watanzania; kwa mfano, tukiamua kupiga kelele za kroo kroo kroo, hakika majumbani hakulaliki; Pia tunajua wazi kabisa kwamba pamoja na udogo wetu, tuna uwezo wa kumwangusha Tembo ambae huangushwa na Simba peke yake, tena kwa taabu sana, kwani tembo lazima aje kunywa maji mtoni kwenye makazi yetu na tunajua siri ndogo sana ya pakumkamatia; This is similar to Wanasiasa wa CCM wanapokuja kwetu wananchi wakati wa msimu wa kuomba kura kila baada ya miaka mitano, na kutoa ahadi lukuki ambazo tayari kupitia uzoefu wetu, tunajua fika kwamba hazitekelezeki; but guess what, tunawarudisha madarakani wale wale;

Ningependa nimalizie na maneno ya Mwalimu Nyerere kwa UMMA kuelekea Uchaguzi Mkuu wa TANU mwaka 1970:

"I hope that both candidates in each election will be intelligent enough to recognize that not everything can be done at once, and that nothing in this world is FREE. For the fact is that if a person is urging more communal services or better communal services, he or she is probably also urging that you, as the voter, should be willing to pay more local rates or more taxes. For is they are promising lots of new activities if they are elected, and if they are promising that these will be done without any cost to you, or effort on your part, they are either deliberately misleading you – thinking you are fools or they themselves are fools"

Source: Socialism and Participation: Tanzania's 1970s Elections: The Elections Study Committee, UDSM (1974).

 

[Kobello]

A Movement for Change lengo lake kuu ni kutafuta viti vya ubunge na Urais? Halafu? Kuendeleza mfumo ule ule wa CCM, hasa utekelezaji wa sera za Mageuzi katika nyanja nilizojadili? Je, UMMA ambao mwenzetu Kwame Nkrumah ameujadili nao una mtazamo na matarajio haya?

Hapana, hauna matarajio haya.

Rejea matumizi ya MOVEMENT katika mabadiliko; Vile vile rejea themes kuu zinazounda neno mapinduzi - Mass Mobilization, Mass Movement, na Regime Change; Kusema kwamba M4C ina elements za Mapinduzi ni kutokana na hili; Naomba ieleweke kwamba kusema M4C ina elements za mapinduzi haina maana kwamba Chadema inalenga kuleta mapinduzi; Vinginevyo kama nilivyojadili awali, mwenye maamuzi juu ya mbinu za mageuzi ni UMMA kwani UMMA ndio wenye mamlaka ya mwisho juu ya hatima ya taifa, ndio maana nimeona mjadala huu ni muhimu kwani hatujui mwitikio wa UMMA kwa M4C utakuwa na hatima gani, hasa iwapo CCM itashinda 2015

Arguably those are not the main elements of revolution, those are just some of "Apparatus" of a political revolution (regime change being the result).

Which means Chadema under M4C wanatafuta kuingia ikulu literally kwenda kufanya kazi na World Bank na IMF kwa mambo yale yale yanayotekelezwa na serikali ya CCM, ila Chadema wao wataenda kuyafanya kwa ufanisi zaidi?

Yes sir!

Haya sio maneno yangu bali ya Mwanafalsafa 'Aristotle', na alichosema ni kwamba: Umaskini ni Mzazi wa Mapinduzi na Uhalifu, na binafsi nakubaliana nae katika hili; ni muhimu pia tukakubaliana kwamba kauli yako kwamba Umaskini Hauleti Mapinduzi ni tofauti na kauli kwamba Umaskini ni Mzazi wa Mapinduzi;

It's actually "CLASS". UMASIKINI IS A RELATIVE TERM. Classes bring injustice which is actually the father of revolution. Injustices in so many ways kama religious,political, economic... etc

 

[jmushi1]

Mchambuzi, desperation brings actions.. watu wetu wanaweza kuwa katika umaskini lakini bado hawajawa "desperate". Bado hatujafikia kwenye hiyo desperation ambayo in reality ndiyo inasababisha watu waamue kutenda. Sasa hivi tuko kwenye level ya chini sana ambayo ni contemplation.. tunatafakari tunachokiona na tunajaribu ku rationalize. We are trying to make sense of the insensible.

Wanasiasa na wana harakati wetu hawajaweza kuonesha kuwa tuko kwenye 'desperate situation'. Ni kwa sababu hii basi mapinduzi hayawezi kuja au kuletwa kwa sababu we are not in dire situation. Mageuzi yanaweza kuletwa lakini nayo yanakuwa precipitated na kutambua kuwa the 'status quo' CAN NOT and MUST NOT be maintained. So far tunaambiwa the status quo "CAN NOT" be maintained lakini haijajengwa hoja ya uthabiti (a firm argument) ya kwanini 'IT MUST NOT BE MAINTAINED'.

Lakini pia kuna jambo kubwa zaidi; CDM sasa hivi haijajiandaa na haijachukua hatua za kujiandaa kushinda uchaguzi mkuu wa 2015. Huwezi kushinda uchaguzi mkuu kwa kutegemea popular politics peke yake and popular politics enshrined in the personalities of the politicians. Popular politics inayofanyika sasa inahusiana na kuchukia CCM na utawala wake ulioshindwa siyo inayotokana na ajenga ya nini CDM wanataka kufanya. Utaona this is the major elements ambayo is missing na ndio sababu sasa hivi kufikiria CDM inaweza kushinda uchaguzi mkuu wa 2015. Katika uchelewaji huu wa CDM ushindi wa CCM unaweza ukawa mkubwa kidogo kulikow wa 2010.

Na wapo watu watakaoshtushwa! Not me of course.

Mkuu situation tuliyonayo ni a desparate one,wananchi hawako desparate kwasababu hawatambui haki zao ama kwa kifupi,hawajitambui.Kwahiyo kama m4c inawapa elimu ya uraia,basi watajitambuwa,na wakishajitambuwa,then watagunduwa kuwa wako desparate.Na wakishagunduwa hivyo,watakuwa desparate for change.

 

[Mchambuzi]

Kobello,

Huu mstari umetulia.

Je, bila kupotosha mada, unadhani sisi kama taifa tunataka kujenga jamii ya namna gani? Naona wengi wetu humu jamvini hatuongelei hilo.

Ni Umma kuchagua baina ya mapinduzi na mageuzi kwani hapo ndipo jibu litapatikana kwa swali hili muhimu; Again, tukiangalie options hizi tena – Mapinduzi ni a complete overhaul ya mfumo uliopo, kwa mfano mahusiano katika uzalishaji na umiliki wa mali n.k; Hakuna kitu kinachobakia/suala la Status Quo halipo katika Mapinduzi, Kwahiyo njia ya mapinduzi poses a threat pia kwa Mfumo wa Soko Huria na Ubepari, hasa in the context of Privatization, Liberalization na Marketization, kwani Chini ya Mapinduzi, UMMA unatafuta kila njia mfumo mpya/mdadala na wenye manufaa kwa walio wengi;

Hii ni tofauti na Mageuzi ambapo kwa mfano, kanuni za soko huria na ubepari zinabakia kama zilivyo huku reforms za hapa na pale zikitekelezwa kwa nia ya kuboresha maisha ya wananchi; tumekuwa katika Mageuzi kuanzia mwaka 1986; Ni kwa watanzania kuamua kwamba, je CCM ikae pembeni ili Chadema iende Ikulu kuendeleza mageuzi yale yale chini ya serikali ya CCM ya sasa lakini kwa UFANISI ZAIDI KULIKO CCM au More radical changes are needed on that front?

M4C haizungumzii ubadilishaji wa mfumo wa uchumi. Badala yake inazungumzia ubadhirifu wa maliasili zetu, rushwa na ukiukwaji wa haki za binadamu.

Hii inamaanisha kuwa sera zilizopo hazitekelezeki au hazifai kabisa kuwepo? Whats the alternative?

Which suggests kwamba Chadema inatafuta ridhaa kwenda Ikulu 2015 kuendeleza sera ziel zile za sasa za CCM chini ya usimamizi wa World Bank na IMF Lakini KWA UFANISI ZAIDI, in belief kwamba tatizo lililopo ni absence ya uwajibikaji, rushwa, ufujaji wa fedha za walipa kodi, huduma duni za kijamii n.k, kwa hoja kwamba matatizo haya - chanzo chake ni kasi ndogo ya utekelezaji wa sera za mageuzi chini ya Serikali ya CCM na kwamba Chadema wataenda kufanya a better job - KIUFANISI;

Na mkizungumzia kuwa bora tu CCM iondoke madarakani, unafikiri hiyo line inarindima miongoni mwa wananchi? Keeping in mind that a poor soul can easily be corrupted (Pilau, kapelo na khanga).

Swali linalofuata hapa ni je: Iwapo Mlinzi wa M4C ni UMMA, je, ulinzi huu upo based on imani gani?

 

[Mchambuzi]

It's actually "CLASS". UMASIKINI IS A RELATIVE TERM. Classes bring injustice which is actually the father of revolution. Injustices in so many ways kama religious,political, economic... etc

Which means you would rather argue kwamba the Parent of Revolution is Injustice, contrary to Aristotle's view kwamba The Parent of Revolution is Poverty and Crime; Thats's interesting; na katika hili, whats your view:

Poverty is an outcome of injustice OR injustice is an outcome of poverty;

 

[jmushi1]

Which means you would rather argue kwamba the Parent of Revolution is Injustice, contrary to Aristotle's view kwamba The Parent of Revolution is Poverty and Crime; Thats's interesting; na katika hili, whats your view:

Poverty is an outcome of injustice OR injustice is an outcome of poverty;

Hivi mkuu kuna poverty bila classes?Ningependa kupata mfano hai wa poverty without class.Mimi nadhani poverty and crime ni matokeo ya classes.Na classes brings about injustice.

 

[Mchambuzi]

Hivi mkuu kuna poverty bila classes?Ningependa kupata mfano hai wa poverty wothout class.Mimi nadhani poverty and crime ni matokeo ya classes.

Sidhani kama nina majibu sahihi juu ya hili, sana sana itakuwa ni maoni yangu tu; Kwanza, class au tabaka ni kitu gani? Maana rahisi ya dhana hii ni kundi la watu/au sehemu fulani ya jamii that enjoys or rather lives under the same social and economic status; ni kawaida katika jamii kwa matabaka kugawanyika katika sehemu kuu tatu, huku kila class iki enjo more economic, social, educational and intellectual status kuliko ya chini yake: The Rich, Middle Class and the Poor; kwa maana hii, Poverty exists in Classes; na kuna mobility between these three classes, as one doesnt have to neccesarily stay in one class for life; that is the essence of Capitalism; hasa kwenye nchi ambazo mfumo wake haujengi class barriers, suala ambalo katika jamii yetu ni the opposite kwani not each Tanzanian is free to succeed and achieve a better living bali the few privileged and the few crooks;

Lakini suala kwamba Poverty & Crime ni matokeo ya Classes sina uhakika na hilo; unaposema matokeo, unaweza kufafanua kidogo mkuu? Vinginevyo Capitalism is a class based system, and class determined economic and social status, hence poverty, but i am not certain if classes PER SE, produces poverty, unless ni kwenye jamii zenye cast system etc...

 

[Kobello]

Which means you would rather argue kwamba the Parent of Revolution is Injustice, contrary to Aristotle's view kwamba The Parent of Revolution is Poverty and Crime; Thats's interesting; na katika hili, whats your view:

Poverty is an outcome of injustice OR injustice is an outcome of poverty;

POVERTY IS AN OUTCOME OF INJUSTICE..... but poverty is a relative term, though is an outcome of injustice.

Aristotle's view is obsolete, but can be used as a talking point. So is Karl Marx's view.
I think to understand the forces behind a political revolution (not a selfish coup by a nobility esp. the "guns") it's better to break down the father of all modern revolutions... The French Revolution.

The burgeouse and the peasants revolted against theNoble and the clergy. Simply because there was injustice among classes. The burgeouse i.e Bankers, intellectuals, merchants etc ... some of which were extremely rich compared to some members of the noble class eg. the guns collaborated with the peasants.

So actually, poverty is not the common denominator.

 

[Mchambuzi]

POVERTY IS AN OUTCOME OF INJUSTICE..... but poverty is a relative term, though is an outcome of injustice.

And when one argues kwamba fighting poverty is fighting injustice or Poverty is injustice, is it based on the premise that poverty is an outcome of injustice?

Aristotle's view is obsolete, but can be used as a talking point. So is Karl Marx's view.
I think to understand the forces behind a political revolution (not a selfish coup by a nobility esp. the "guns") it's better to break down the father of all modern revolutions... The French Revolution.

I beg to differ na wewe on this one kwa sababu zifuatazo:

Kwanza, you can not dismiss Marxism's role in revolutions, especially in the context of the current global capitalist system whereby kuna almost a permanent positioning of participants ambapo wapo participants in the centre and wengine in the periphery huku wale in the centre calling shots; in the periphery wapo ni poor countries, centre wapo rich countries; ndio maana sio mapinduzi tu, bali harakati zote za ukombozi kuanzia zile ya 1950s pamoja na suala zima la Neo - Colonialism lina so much Marxism in it, ndio maana the Centre Players in the system wanajaribu kila njia ya kuhakikisha kwamba Ubepari and its fundamentals stay intact, huku wakiaminisha kwamba the only way out of poverty ni kupitia REFORMS, sio REVOLUTIONS; Marekani kwa mfano hawakupenda revolution ya Misri kwa sababu it was a threat to what's theirs, na ndio maana kwenye suala la Libya, wakaingia upesi sana to determine the fate of that uprising;

Pili ni kuhusu the French revolution where you argue kwamba:

The burgeouse and the peasants revolted against the Noble and the clergy. Simply because there was injustice among classes. The burgeouse i.e Bankers, intellectuals, merchants etc ... some of which were extremely rich compared to some members of the noble class eg. the guns collaborated with the peasants.

You have to bear in mind kwamba kuna tofauti kubwa baina ya Political revolutions na Social Revolutions, the former mara nyingi leaves mfumo uliopo intact, huku the later mara nyingi hupelekea mfumo mpya; French revolution was more of a political revolution ambapo mfumo wa mahusiano katika uzalishaji mali na umiliki wa mali haukuguswa sana; wakati Social Revolutions ni kama zile zilizotokea Russia, China, Cuba n.k ambazo ziliambatana na a complete overturn ya mfumo za uzalishaji, usambazaji wa mitaji, mazao, na vile vile mahusiano katika umiliki wa mali;

So actually, poverty is not the common denominator.

Do you tackle poverty to eradicate injustices or tackle injustice to eradicate poverty; Which side of the debate would you pick;

 

[jmushi1]

Sidhani kama nina majibu sahihi juu ya hili, sana sana itakuwa ni maoni yangu tu; Kwanza, class au tabaka ni kitu gani? Maana rahisi ya dhana hii ni kundi la watu/au sehemu fulani ya jamii that enjoys or rather lives under the same social and economic status; ni kawaida katika jamii kwa matabaka kugawanyika katika sehemu kuu tatu, huku kila class iki enjo more economic, social, educational and intellectual status kuliko ya chini yake: The Rich, Middle Class and the Poor; kwa maana hii, Poverty exists in Classes; na kuna mobility between these three classes, as one doesnt have to neccesarily stay in one class for life; that is the essence of Capitalism; hasa kwenye nchi ambazo mfumo wake haujengi class barriers, suala ambalo katika jamii yetu ni the opposite kwani not each Tanzanian is free to succeed and achieve a better living bali the few privileged and the few crooks;

Lakini suala kwamba Poverty & Crime ni matokeo ya Classes sina uhakika na hilo; unaposema matokeo, unaweza kufafanua kidogo mkuu? Vinginevyo Capitalism is a class based system, and class determined economic and social status, hence poverty, but i am not certain if classes PER SE, produces poverty, unless ni kwenye jamii zenye cast system etc...

Nitajaribu kufafanua kwa urahisi if possible.Ukitaja poverty,tayari ni class kwasababu the other side is either rich or middle class,hence classes.Nikiwa na maana kuwa inside classes,is where you find poverty,middle class,and rich.So you can see which begins,ndo maana nikasema there isn't poverty without classes.Na classes zinatokana na injustices kama sijakosea.

 

[jmushi1]

And when one argues kwamba fighting poverty is fighting injustice or Poverty is injustice, is it based on the premise that poverty is an outcome of injustice?



I beg to differ na wewe on this one kwa sababu zifuatazo:

Kwanza, you can not dismiss Marxism's role in revolutions, especially in the context of the current global capitalist system whereby kuna almost a permanent positioning of participants ambapo wapo participants in the centre and wengine in the periphery huku wale in the centre calling shots; in the periphery wapo ni poor countries, centre wapo rich countries; ndio maana sio mapinduzi tu, bali harakati zote za ukombozi kuanzia zile ya 1950s pamoja na suala zima la Neo - Colonialism lina so much Marxism in it, ndio maana the Centre Players in the system wanajaribu kila njia ya kuhakikisha kwamba Ubepari and its fundamentals stay intact, huku wakiaminisha kwamba the only way out of poverty ni kupitia REFORMS, sio REVOLUTIONS; Marekani kwa mfano hawakupenda revolution ya Misri kwa sababu it was a threat to what's theirs, na ndio maana kwenye suala la Libya, wakaingia upesi sana to determine the fate of that uprising;

Pili ni kuhusu the French revolution where you argue kwamba:
You have to bear in mind kwamba kuna tofauti kubwa baina ya Political revolutions na Social Revolutions, the former mara nyingi leaves mfumo uliopo intact, huku the later mara nyingi hupelekea mfumo mpya; French revolution was more of a political revolution ambapo mfumo wa mahusiano katika uzalishaji mali na umiliki wa mali haukuguswa sana; wakati Social Revolutions ni kama zile zilizotokea Russia, China, Cuba n.k ambazo ziliambatana na a complete overturn ya mfumo za uzalishaji, usambazaji wa mitaji, mazao, na vile vile mahusiano katika umiliki wa mali;



Do you tackle poverty to eradicate injustices or tackle injustice to eradicate poverty; Which side of the debate would you pick;

Sijui atakachojibu Kobelo,lakini nadhani we tackle injustices to eliminate poverty.

 

[Mchambuzi]

Nitajaribu kufafanua kwa urahisi if possible.Ukitaja poverty,tayari ni class kwasababu the other side is either rich or middle class,hence classes.Nikiwa na maana kuwa inside classes,is where you find poverty,middle class,and rich.So you can see which begins,ndo maana nikasema there isn't poverty without classes.Na classes zinatokana na injustices kama sijakosea.

Sasa nimekusoma na kukuelewa, na nakubaliana na mtazamo huo ambao honestly sikuwa natazama kwa jicho hilo; once you mention of poverty, tayari umeweka mstari wa kitabaka - thats a very good analysis;

Kuhusu suala la classes kutengenezwa na injustices, tujiulize kwanza, je, does capitalism aim to create classes, hence poverty? Na je, mfumo ambao doesnt entertain classes - mfano Ujamaa au Ukomunisti, does it mean there is more justice?

Binafsi nadhani nia ya ubepari sio kutengeneza classes, bali uwepo wa classes ni matokeo tu, hasa katika nchi za dunia ya kwanza ambazo zilishaweka fundamentals of capitalism and free market sawa sawa kabla ya ku open up to the rest of the world; na kama tunakumbuka, mchakato wa kuweka fundamentals hizi sawa ulipitia vita vya dunia, uporaji na uvamizi wa jamii maskini kama Afrika, utumwa n.k; Katika mataifa haya, social, political and economic injustices ni nadra sana kuwepo, tofauti na nchi zetu; Kwa maana nyingine hapa - katika nchi hizi, hakuna uhusiano wa karibu baina ya classes na injustice, kama ilivyokuwa katika jamii zetu;

Lakini je, inatokeaje kwamba mataifa kama Tanzania ambayo yanajipambanua kwamba ni classless, esp miaka ya nyuma, ndio yamejaa kila aina ya injustices and poverty? In my humble view, partial answer to this ni maelezo yangu ya awali kwa Kobello kuhusu the current global capitalist system ambapo kuna jamii ambazo ni permanently favoured to participate from the middle and call all the shots for jamii zilizobakia ambazo zina participate from the periphery - nchi maskini kama Tanzania...

 

[Mchambuzi]

Sijui atakachojibu Kobelo,lakini nadhani we tackle injustices to eliminate poverty.

is this the same as saying Poverty is Injustice therefore fighting Poverty is Fighting Injustice?