Kaunga
JF-Expert Member
- Nov 28, 2010
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Waoh nimejifunza kitu leo, nashukuru Stefano Mtangoo
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Hapa ndipo na mimi naungana na Mtoa mada kuwa kwa mujibu wa
tamko la dini yenu linalodai "Mungu hayupo" na nyinyi kukiri ni kinyume na hivyo ni kuikana imani yenu.
Naungana naye kwa sababu kitendo cha kutilia mashaka hata kile ambacho unaeleza kuwa kuna uwezekano kikawa kweli (rejea...Na ukiijua kweli itakuwa juu ya wanadamu wote?) inaonyesha jinsi gani umepofushwa na Tamko la dini yenu.
Maana kama utajua kweli kuna sheria iliyojuu ya wanadamu wote ...mashaka mengine yatatoka wapi ? vinginevyo unieleze pia kuwa imani yenu haotambui uwepo wa Ukweli na Uongo.
Waoh nimejifunza kitu leo, nashukuru Stefano Mtangoo
Ubarikiwe dada!Waoh nimejifunza kitu leo, nashukuru Stefano Mtangoo
the book that u so trust has a lot of inconsistency y would a rational person trust it??? even from early chapters lots of ambiguities!! kwa mfano wakat cain amemuua ndugu yake anafukuzwa akawa anamlalamikia mungu kua uko anakoenda anaogopa watu watamuua? swali ni kwamba nani hao watu anaowaogopa? kulikua na town ingine apart from eden? watu hao walitoka wapi? and funny enough uko alikoenda akapata na mke!!!
a. Ufafanuzi
Kabla sijaweka pwenti zangu ningependa kuweka msingi wa tunachokijadili hapa na mipaka yake. Suala la Mungu ni pana sana na hata vitabu vyote havitoshi kujadili, kwa hiyo kwa nafasi fnyu kama forum, tunahitaji kuweka mipaka.
Kwanza ninaposema Mungu ninaongelea "Mungu kama anavyoelezwa ndani ya Biblia". Hapa hatutazungumzia (ktk mada hii) kuhusu Biblia, ila Mungu wa Biblia. Usiniulize kuhusu imani nyingine maana mimi nakubali Mungu wa Biblia na ninaweza kukujibu kuhusu Mungu kama inavyoeleza Biblia. Kwa habari ya imani nyingine, subiri wafungue uzi au fungua kuwauliza watakujibu vizuri tu (ninaamini hivyo).
Kitu gani umejifunza, labda wengine tumekimiss, please do share.
Kwamba kutokuwepo Mungu ni imani kama Uwepo wa Mwenyezi Mungu.
Give it another name, this is not what uniformity is. uniformity is well clarified in my post. So read it again!Is Uniformity one of the key elements to justify God's existence, siyo? Good, sasa hapo mwanzo biblia yako inatuambia hakukuwa na dhambi. Mungu Aliumba viumbe vyake vyote akiwemo Malaika Mkuu wake Lusifa a.k.a. Shetani wa leo akiwa mkamilifu. Ila ghafla bin vuu bwana mkubwa huyu akaota kiburi na kutaka kujifananisha na Muumba wake! Is this what you refer to be uniformity, one of your poor proofs of God's existence?
Okay, following the same trend, Mungu Alijua kuwa Ulimwengu aliouumba baadaye ungetumbukia dhambini, sasa akaandaa mpango mkubwa, mgumu, wa gharama kubwa na tena usiofikirika eti wa kumkomboa mwanadamu kutoka dhambini! Sasa two issues to be addressed here:-Ikiwa ni kweli kuwa Mungu Alimpa mwanadamu uhuru wa kuchagua mema na mabaya (sawa na wewe Baba/Mama unavyoweza kumpa uhuru mwanao aende Mzumbe Secondary au Ikinabushu Secondary), iweje tena Baba/Mama huyu huyu aanze kumtishia mwanaye kuwa ukichagua kwenda Ikinabushu Secondary nitakufukuza kwangu tena na kukuchoma moto?
Simple! Mungu aliyeona na kujua kabla hayajatokea unayoeleza hapo juu ndiye aliyesema haitatokea. Na kwa kuwa anajua yote, "I rest assured". Wewe kwa upande wako huna cha kuegemea ila kutegemea bahati nasibu. Haua assurance yeyote kwa kuwa utupu hautegemewi.... you are doomed!Back to Uniformity: Kama mwanadamu naye alikuwa mkamilifu, baadaye akaasi na mpango wa kumuokoa kutoka dhambini ukasukwa, sasa tuna uhakika gani kuwa mwanadamu yule yule atakayekuwa ameokolewa dhambini hataasi tena ktk paradise/akhera/mbingu/dunia ijayo?
What you are talking about is going in circle not uniformity. I cannot believe you do not understand what it is even after writing it in simple manner. Go and read it again!Kwa nini hapa usione kuwa kuna Non-uniformity katika plans za huyo Mungu wako? Iweje Duniani pa likuwa Patakatifu, Kisha Dhambi na Tunaambiwa Baadaye tena patakuwa Patakatifu lakini hatuelezwi kuwa yawezekana ikaja kuwa tena Dhambi na kufanya iwe Loop inayoonyesha hiyo Uniformity yako? Sasa Utakatifu >>> Dhambi >>> Utakatifu ndio hiyo Uniformity unayoizungumzia hapa?
Na ni nini mpango wa Mungu endapo tena mwanadamu atakuja kuasi akifika huko mbinguni? Maana hapo mwanzo Mungu Alijua kuwa kiumbe wake mkamilifu angeasi, akajiandaa, lakini this time tunaambiwa kuwa huko mbinguni hakutakuwa na dhambi wala kifo tena (just as it was in the beginning) lakini hatuambiwi nini kitatokea endapo hali ikigeuka kuwa ndivyo sivyo! Au wanadamu watakaokuwepo kule hawatakuwa tena na uchaguzi wa kuamua njia waitakayo kama wale wa awali walivyopewa fursa hiyo? If that is the case, ina maana huyo Mungu atakuwa amewafunga watu wake wasiwe na any other choice except him? Na kama hivi ndivyo basi huyo Mungu hajiamini, ni dikteta wa hali ya juu na hajali athari za mabavu yake kwa watoto wake mwenyewe maana kama angelikuwa na upendo basi asingewanyima uhuru wao kama ule aliowapa hapo mwanzo!
By the way, wewe (Mungu) ni Mwalimu wa Sanaa (Arts), unafundisha wanafunzi, kutunga mitihani, kusahihisha na mwisho kutoa matokeo. Sasa iweje tena wewe huyo huyo ulazimishe kutoa matokeo ya wanafunzi waliofanya somo la Hisabati ilhali halikuhusu, hukusomea, hukuwafundisha na wala hukutunga mtihani huo? Maana yangu ni kwamba, kwanini Mungu asi-deal na wale wanaofuata sheria zake tu (yaani awalinde, awatunze, awahudumie na hatimaye siku atakayoona inafaa awapeleke anakotaka yeye basi) na badala yake ana-cross over na kuwafuata wale wasiomuamini na kujifanya ndiye Jaji wao? Kwanini wale wasiomuamini (kwa maana nyingine ni wafuasi wa Mzee Mzima Shetani) asiwaache nao walindwe, watunzwe, wahudumiwe na hatimaye wapelekwe kule ambako Master wao atataka wawe halafu mwishoni ndio atoe ushuhuda kuwa Niliwaambia hamkusikia, oneni jinsi uchaguzi wenu ulivyowagharimu? Hayo ya Ngoswe yanamhusu nini yeye huyo Mungu wenu? Mbona huyo Kiongozi wa hilo kundi lingine (Shetani) yuko kimya tu, hajatangaza adhabu kwa wale wasiomtii (kama wewe unayejidai ni mfuasi wa Mungu)? Iweje huyu muungwana (Shetani) asiwe na noma kwenu nyie mnaokesha na kumtukana mchana na usiku kucha lakini kinyume chake huyo Mungu wenu mnayempamba ni mwenye haki na upendo atangaze shari kwa wasiomfuata? Yaani ni sawa na Kikwete (Rais wa Nchi na Watz wote + M/Kiti wa Magamba) atangaze kiama na majanga kwa watu wote wasio wafuasi wa Magamba lakini Dr. Slaa/Mbowe/Lipumba/Cheyo/Mrema/Mbatia/Mtikila/et al wao wabaki kimya wala hawawalalamikii watu ambao hawawaungi mkono/ni wafuasi wa Magamba, sasa kati ya pande hizi mbili ni upi unaoonekana kutenda haki na uungwana kwa standards za kibinadamu? Sasa iwapo kwa stabdards za kibinadamu imekuwa hivyo, habari gani kwa standards za huyo Mungu? Kwanini isiwe hivyo?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kwa hali ya kibinadamu, wanasema wengi wape. Ninyi licha ya Shetani kutolalamika wala kuomba kutukuzwa kama vile Mungu wenu anavyotaka atukuzwe mchana na usiku kucha, lakini hata hivyo watu wengi (naamini na wewe ukiwemo) mnaimba mko kwa Mungu lakini matendo yenu hayana tofauti na ya Mzee Mzima Shetani! Hata huyo Yesu wenu aliwahi kukiri, kuwa vinywa vyenu vinaimba Mungu lakini miondoko na midundo ya matendo yenu ni ya Mzee mzima ambaye mnakesha mchana kutwa mkimpiga vijembe! Hii ina maana gani?????? Maana yake ni kwamba huyo Mungu wenu kimantiki hayupo maana kaweka vigezo vigumu sana vya kumfikia, na hata yeye mwenyewe anakiri kuwa njia yake ni nyembamba na waionao ni wachache! Yohana aliona idadi ya watakaourithi ufalme wa mbinguni ni mia moja arobaini na nne elfu tu! Sasa kati ya Watu zaidi ya 2 billion tuliopo, wateule ni sawa na asilimia 0.0072 tu! Anyway, sasa kama hivyo ndivyo itakavyokuwa, kwa nini nisiamini kuwa kitendo cha Mungu kuamua kuja kuchoma moto dunia hii (na wakati wa Nuhu kugharikisha dunia nzima) ni wivu tu baada ya Sera zake kukataliwa na watoto wake wa kuumba yeye mwenyewe? Kwanini isiwe hivyo iwapo hata kule mbinguni alivyotaka kupima ubavu na Lusifa Mzee Mzima alijinyakulia theluthi 1 ya malaika wote tena kwa mkupuo pasipo kufanya kampeni? BY LOGIC: Iwapo hao malaika na hata Lusifa mwenyewe aliyekuwepo kule mbinguni na akawa karibu sana na huyo Mungu waliasi, habari gani wewe Mnyalukolo mwenzangu ambaye hukuwahi hata kwenda juu ya haya mawingu tunayoyaona ujiaminishe kiasi hicho kuwa Mungu wako unayemtumainia ni mwenye upendo, huruma na msamaha? Hivi mwanao akikaidi ushauri wako na akaamua kufanya maamuzi yake anayoona ni sahihi kwake utamwadhibu au utamsikitikia na kumuonea huruma kwa kitakachompata? Sasa iweje kwa standards za Mungu JEHANAMU ndio iwe kusudio kwa wale watakaomkataa badala ya kuwahurumia, kuwasikitikia na ikiwezekana kuwaepushia majanga hayo????? Hivi bado tu hujaona mantiki hapa, au unaendelea kuimba na kukariri tu kama ambavyo wajanja fulani waliwataka muendelee kuamini hivyo milele? Unachekesha aiseee!!!!!!!!!!!
MWISHO: Eti kuna Mungu au Shetani ni nadharia tu zisizo na mantiki wala mashiko yoyote katika viwango viwavyo vyovyote vile, hata iwe ni kwa kutumia akili ndogo kabisa za kibinadamu maana hata yasemwayo kuhusu hao wawili hayawezi kuthibitishwa pasipo kuacha chembe ya shaka! So, what for? Leave this Topic alone, don't waste your precious time at all!
Kiranga tunasubiri ufafanuzi wako kwa swali hili toka kwa Stefano Mtangoo -"Why should things be uniform in random universe where things just run themselves through chance?"
What is evil in the world where there is no standard to differentiate good from evil?Halafu waamini hawajanijibu kuhusu "problem of evil" bado
4. Watu hawa wasioamini Mungu yupo huamini kuwa kama Mungu angalikuwepo kusingelikuwa na magonjwa na maumivu haya yote. Hawa watu wanaamini kuwa magonjwa ni kitu kibaya, na hata maumivu. Lakini swali wanaloliruka ni kuwa ili utofautishe kati ya mazuri na mabaya lazima kuwe na sheria iliyo juu ya wanadamu wote (absolute law) iliyo juu ya wanadamu wote. viginevyo bay kwa huyu laweza lisiwe baya kwa yule. Na ili kuwepo na sheria hiyo lazima awepo mtunga sheria aliye juu ya wanadamu wote. Watu hawa wanamkataa mtunga sheria huyu (Mungu) na hivyo wanapoteza sheria yenyewe na kimantiki mambo yote yanapaswa kuwa na hali sawa (hakuna baya au zuri). sasa wanpolalamika juu ya magonjwa na matatizo wanapimaje ubaya na uzuri? Je watu hawa hawawezi kuwaza haya yote? Je ni wajinga? Hapana, ni werevu sana. Ila tamko la dini yao linadai "Mungu hayupo" na wao kukiri kinyume na hivyo ni kuikana imani yao. Wanaenda kidini zaidi na sio kisayansi wala kimantiki!
Whooa! Thanks for proving my point, that you atheist do things by faith, blind faith actually!The problem of evil remain unanswered.
I need not go further until this problem is solved.
What is evil in the world where there is no standard to differentiate good from evil?
Are you saying you have standards?
What are they?
Who sets them?
By what authority?
Huwezi sema kuhusu mabaya na ilhali katika dini unayoamini ya "hakuna Mungu"
hakuna jema wala baya.
Lazima ukubaliane uwepo wa Mungu ndipo uhoji habari ya maovu. Vinginevyo swali lako linakosa mantiki yeyote!
Whooa! Thanks for proving my point, that you atheist do things by faith, blind faith actually!
You have not answered any of posed question and you keep singing problem of evil.
Evil and good have to be differentiated under a basis and the basis must transcend humans if that basis is to be honored and enforced to humans. And that basis must come from a Being, transcendent and Personal. You deny the being and there by you loose the basis and so in your religion of No God there is no such thing as good nor evil.
That being said what is your question?
Well well!Which posed questions, can you point to the specific post?
Some questions have been answered umpteen times hapa, labda wewe umekuja jana hujaona majibu.
Nipe exact post number niangalie kama unataka input yangu.
Ukija na maswali ya "argument from design" tulishayararua kitambo hapa.
Kitu gani umejifunza, labda wengine tumekimiss, please do share.