LIVE Special Thread: Yanayojiri Mgogoro wa Ukraine na Urusi. Nini chanzo na hatma ya mzozo?

[Kichogo]

Kiduku atabaki kua mwanaume tu hakuangalii unaukubwa gan, kama nuclear unayo sasa unaogapa nin hapo inakua uua tuuane[emoji119][emoji119]

 

[Kinyungu]

Taifa la Ukraine ni miongoni mwa nchi zinazomiliki silaha za Nyuklia na makombora ya masafa marefu

Ni taifa kubwa tu la watu milioni 45 kulingana na takwimu za mwaka 2020

Jamaa wana silaha za kila aina lakini wanapigwa biti na mrusi wanaufyata

Kila mtu anaijua nguvu ya Putin na Urusi,lakini nachotaka kusema hapa ni kuwa, kama nchi nyingine tusiwe kama Ukraine

Hata kama ni Russia na manguvu yote ukraine alitakiwa akitishiwa kuvamiwa naye aonyeshe misuli ya umwamba

Taifa la watu milioni 45 sio taifa dogo wakuu ni taifa ambalo linaweza kuwa na uwezo wa kutunisha misuli kwa taifa hata lenye watu milioni 300

Sasa wapo milioni 45 wanakua waoga hivyo na wanaonyesha udhaifu mkubwa,jee wangekua milioni 3 au 4 jee?


Taifa la watu milioni 45 mkiamua kuwekeza kwenye jeshi na uwezo mkubwa mnauwezo wa kulitunishia misuli dola lolote hapa ulimwengu, milioni 45 inakutosha kuwa superpower nawe ukatunisha misuli

Na silaha za nyukilia wanazo lakini wamekua watu waoga hivyo?Vita ikitokea Ukraine wakijipanga wakipigana na Russia hata kama mrusi atashinda lakini wangemuachia russia makovu fulani au kumporomosha kiuchumi,kwamba vita viww virefu vya kufa na kupona.

Ukraine anapitwa hadi na nchi kama Israel ambayo ina idadi ndogo lakini wanatunishia misuli madola makubwa,kila kitu ni kujipanga,Israel sio wengi ni nchi ndogo lakini kijeshi wanajitahidi vipi hao ambao wapo milioni 45 na wamejionyesha dhaifu hivyo

Una makombora ya masafa marefu yanayofika Moscow halafu unatishiwa kuvamiwa?Kwanini usitamke wazi kabisa kwamba ukivamiwa utaishambulia Moscow kwa makombora ya masafa marefu?

Hii nchi ni ya ajabu sana....Mimi kwa hili nasimama na Urusi katika huu mgogoro lakini Ukraine wanafeli sana masilaha yote hayo lakini wameshindwa hata kupiga mkwara tena watavamiwa na hawatafanya kitu,hawa jamaa ni useless kabisa

Ukraine hawafai kuigwa

Ukrain hawana Nyuklia

 

[Kichuguu]

Kutokana na yanayoendelea donbas,luhansck na donesck wanasiasa wa Ukraine wapo makini sana na maamuzi yao kwa sabab makosa kidogo tu hayo majimbo matat watayakosa jumla na nchi itavurugika.

Na ktk mapambano kuwa na silaha kali hakukupi dhamana ya kushinda pambano tumejionea kwa saudia na washirika wake dhidi ya wahouth.

Ingawaje unasema kuwa Ukraine wana silaha za nyuklia lkn sidhan km zinaweza wasaidia km hawapo vzr kiujasus,unapotaja nchi zinazotamba ktk ujasus huwez kutoitaja urus,us na nato licha ya ubabe wao lkn mara nyingi tu huwa wanalalamika kujasusiwa na urus sasa Ukraine unadhan amesalimika vp na ujasus wa urus ilhal juzi tu wamesema tovut yao ya usalama imedukuliwa kwa siku mbili mfululizo???

(1) Warusi wana ukabila sana. Angalia warusi waliopo Ukraine wanavyojifanya kuwa wao siyo wa-ukraine. Ni sawa na Wamasai walioko Kenya eit kukataa kuwa siyo wakenya bali ni watanzania, au wamasai wa Tanzania kusema siyo watanzania bali ni wakenya. Warusi utaifa wao umeungana kikabila siyo mipaka ya nchi.

(2) Ukraine waliharibiwa silaha zote za Nuklia baada ya USSR kuvunjika na viwanda vyote vya nyuklia vikaharibiwa. Zoezi hilo lilifanyika sana wakati wa utawala wa Clinton na Yelstin. Kulikuwa na makubaliano ya kiulinzi waliyokuwa wamehaidiwa kutoka urusi, lakini baada ya kuharibiwa silaha zote za nyuklia, Putin sasa katupilia mbali makubaliano hayo.

(3) Kiwanda Cha chernobyl bado ni gofu miaka yote hii zaidi ya arobaini.

(4) Baada ya kumegewa Crimea, Ukraine walianzisha jeshi lao na kulipatia mafunzo na silaha kali sana kutokea Marekani na Europe. Vita ikipiganwa leo haikutakuwa njia rahisi sana kwa Urusi kama ilivyotokea wakati wa Crimea, inawezekana kabisa urusi akajutia kujipeleka katika vita hiyo.

(5) Walishafufua kiwanda chao cha ndege za kivita. Wakati wa USSR, kuna ndege fulani za kivita zilikuwa zinatengenezwa Ukraine ikiwa ni pamoja na lile dege kubwa sana kuliko yote dunian la Mriya. Baada ya usalama wao kuwa wa mashaka, walifufua ile production line ya ndege za kivita na viwanda vya silaha. Ingawa havijafika mbali, ila ni swala la muda tu.

 

[Bwana Utam]

Watu wametengeneza silaha nyingi na za hatari lakini kiuhalisia hawatazitumia na badala yake migogoro itasuluhishwa mezani.

Katika dunia ya leo vita ni ghali sana na unapopigana kisha vita vikiisha na uchumi wako unakuwa umesambaratika kabisa na kuujenga tena ni kazi ngumu kushinda vita vyenyewe na haijalishi kama ulishinda hivyo vita au la.

Hiyo scenario ndio kila nchi inajaribu kuepuka bila kujali nchi ni kubwa au ndogo na inapofika hapo ndio maana hata Russia leo hii nimesikia wameanza kuondoa wanajeshi wao kutoka kwenye mpaka wao na Ukraine.

Russia wameona isiwe shida kwani wakiwekewa vikwazo wameona hawana dawa ya vikwazo na wanafahamu athari ya vikwazo vya kiuchumi ni mbaya kuliko kuikalia ardhi ya Ukraine kwa nguvu hivyo naona wanaelekea kukubali yaishe.

kukubali yaishe nn RUSSIA hakutaka kuikaia UKRAINE ila yupo wazi UKRAINE haitakiwi kuingia NATO hili kaliweka wazi kama NATO wanauwezo waiunge UKRAINE na NATO ndio mutaelewa

 

[Imeloa]

kukubali yaishe nn RUSSIA hakutaka kuikaia UKRAINE ila yupo wazi UKRAINE haitakiwi kuingia NATO hili kaliweka wazi kama NATO wanauwezo waiunge UKRAINE na NATO ndio mutaelewa

Nato imeshaweka wazi kwamba swala la Ukraine kujiunga na Nato liko pale pale na kwamba Russia hana haki ya kuiamulia Ukraine mambo yake.

 

[Bwana Utam]

Nato imeshaweka wazi kwamba swala la Ukraine kujiunga na Nato liko pale pale na kwamba Russia hana haki ya kuiamulia Ukraine mambo yake.

maneno bila matendo hayasaidii lipo lipo wapi wakati nisasa kijana
hizo ndoto munazoota sahauni kabisa kuja kutokea

 

[mbingunikwetu]

mrusi kelele tu hana huo ubavu ajaribu apigwe nyie mnawaona kama wanaiweza dunia ahahah. Alikuwepo mwanaume hitler huyo putin mweupe tu.Nipo Manzese kwa mfuga mbwa.

mrusi kelele tu hana huo ubavu ajaribu apigwe nyie mnawaona kama wanaiweza dunia ahahah. Alikuwepo mwanaume hitler huyo putin mweupe tu.Nipo Manzese kwa mfuga mbwa.

Wewe unaijua Urusi au unaisikia tu. Urusi akitia mguu mahali marekani hufyata mkia fasta. Nakupa mifano miwili: Marekani ilikuwa inataka kumwondoa rais Asad wa Syria ili waweke kibaraka wao. Urusi ikapeleka majeshi yake huko na marekani akashindwa vibaya. Marekani ilitaka pia kumwondoa rais Maduro wa Venazuela ili waweke kibaraka wao, Urusi akatia timu na biashara ya kumtoa Maduro ikaishia hapo. Kwa ziada: Marekani waliwarubuni Ukraine wamwasi rais wao na wakamweka kibaraka wa Mabeberu aliyepo hadi leo. Kuona hivyo Urusi haikupepesa macho ikavamia Crimea, na hakuna yeyote aliyethubutu kujaribu kuwazuia. Sasa soma mkwarta wa Urusi hapa uone kama anaogopa au la:

Here’s what Russia told US and NATO after its proposals were rejected​

Moscow addressed the situation in Ukraine, US nuclear weapons in Europe, NATO violating treaties, and the law-based way forward

File photo: Russian President Vladimir Putin, February 15, 2022. © Sergey Guneev, Sputnik, Kremlin Pool Photo via AP
Russia may respond with “military and technical measures” to ensure its own security after the US and NATO ignored key points from its proposal for a long-term European security architecture, and instead cherry-picked issues from a package deal, Moscow said on Thursday.
The overall sentiment of the 10-page document, published by the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) on Thursday, was that the US and its allies refused to even address Russia’s “red lines” and key security interests. The MFA also addressed specific issues such as Ukraine, Crimea, US troop presence and weapons build-up along Russian borders, as well as arms control. Here are the key takeaways.
Russia has no plans to invade Ukraine, Moscow says
Moscow insists that there is no “Russian invasion” of Ukraine, nor are there any plans for one. Accusations by the US and its allies about Russian responsibility for the “escalation” in Ukraine can only be seen as an attempt to pressure Moscow and dismiss Russian proposals for security guarantees, the document argues, calling the conflict in Ukraine “entirely internal in character.”

READ MORE: Moscow responds to US security proposal 'cherry picking'
Moscow argues the conflict can only be resolved through the implementation of the Minsk Agreements and the measures envisioned therein. The UN Security Council Resolution 2022 names Kiev and the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk as the parties concerned, while Russia is a mediator alongside France and Germany, in the so-called Normandy Format. To de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, the MFA says, the West needs to compel Kiev to implement the measures agreed in Minsk, stop sending weapons to Ukraine, withdraw all of its advisers and instructors, stop NATO exercises with Ukraine’s military, and pull all foreign weapons previously delivered to Kiev from Ukrainian territory.
Moscow says Crimea case ‘closed’

Russia did not “occupy” Ukrainian territory in 2014, the MFA insisted, arguing that “the loss of territorial integrity by the Ukrainian government is the result of internal processes in that country,” and, specifically, pointing to the coup d’etat backed by the US and its allies, “whose perpetrators embarked on building a nationalist state infringing on the rights of ethnic Russians and Russian-speaking people, as well as other nationalities.”
READ MORE: West ‘deceived & crucified’ Ukraine: Key takeaways from interview with Russian FM spokesperson
In those circumstances, Moscow says, the region of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol held a referendum to rejoin Russia, in line with the UN-guaranteed right of self-determination. “No force or coercion was applied. The question of where Crimea belongs is closed,” the MFA said. Ukraine still considers the peninsula to be part of its territory and its state policy is to “reintegrate” it by any means, including force. The US and NATO likewise do not recognize Crimea rejoining Russia, calling it an illegal “annexation.”
US must withdraw from Russian borders, Moscow insists

Russia has “no forces on the territory of Ukraine,” the MFA said in the document, adding that the deployments of troops within Russia’s own territory “do not and cannot concern the fundamental interests of the United States.” By contrast, Russia said, the US and its NATO allies have expanded their military infrastructure eastward, violating both the 1990 Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe (CFE) and the 1997 Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between Russia and NATO. Moscow insists on the withdrawal “of all US armed forces and weapons deployed in Central and Eastern Europe, Southeastern Europe, and the Baltics.”
Russia says NATO’s ‘open doors’ policy violates security

While the US remains committed to NATO’s policy of “open doors” – not ruling out admission of any country that applies to the alliance – Moscow noted that this violates the commitments NATO made in June 1991, to not endanger legitimate interests of other states or create new lines of division in Europe.
READ MORE: NATO expansionism has suffered a major setback
It also clashes with the principle of indivisibility of security which the US committed to under the treaties that established the Organization for European Security Cooperation (OSCE), namely to “not to enhance their security at the expense of the security of others,” in Russia’s view. “We call on the US and NATO to return to their international obligations in the sphere of supporting peace and security,” the MFA said. “We expect from the alliance specific proposals on the form and content of legal guarantees that NATO will not expand further to the east.”
Moscow wants indivisible security for all, not just NATO

Washington needs to demonstrate it actually believes in the principle of indivisible security, Moscow argued, accusing the US of refusing to give up its “counterproductive and destabilizing course” of seeking advantages for itself and its allies at the expense of Russian security interests, while threatening Russia’s borders. In Moscow’s view, the right of countries to “freely choose or change their security arrangements, including entering alliances,” which the US cites, is not absolute, but is only half the formula contained in existing European security treaties. The document points out that Washington keeps omitting the second half, about not enhancing one’s own security at the expense of others.
Russia wants NATO to stop putting nukes in Europe

There was no answer to the Russian proposal to stop deploying nuclear weapons outside one’s own territory – something the US has repeatedly done with NATO allies, in violation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT), the MFA said. Such weapons are currently deployed in the territory of several NATO members and are capable of targeting Russia.
READ MORE: Russia & France could go to war, Putin warns Macron
Moscow insists they must be withdrawn, the infrastructure for quickly redeploying them to Europe dismantled, and NATO must stop training non-nuclear members in the handling of such weapons. “Without the removal of this irritant, discussion on the topic of non-strategic nuclear weapons is impossible,” Russia said.
Violation of ‘red lines’ may lead to ‘military-technical’ response – Moscow

The US and NATO are increasing their military activity on Russia’s borders while ignoring Moscow’s “red lines” and fundamental security interests, the MFA said, describing the situation as a “cause for alarm.” Russia described ultimatums and threats of sanctions as “unacceptable” and said they undermine the chances of reaching actual diplomatic agreements. Since the US is not prepared to discuss firm and legally binding guarantees of Russian security, Moscow will be forced to respond, including “through the implementation of measures of a military-technical nature,” the MFA said.

 

[Imeloa]

kukubali yaishe nn RUSSIA hakutaka kuikaia UKRAINE ila yupo wazi UKRAINE haitakiwi kuingia NATO hili kaliweka wazi kama NATO wanauwezo waiunge UKRAINE na NATO ndio mutaelewa

Nato ameshaweka wazi kwamba swala la Ukraine kujiunga na Nato liko pale pale na kwamba Russia hana haki ya kuiamulia Ukraine mambo yake.

 

[Bwana Utam]

Nato ameshaweka wazi kwamba swala la Ukraine kujiunga na Nato liko pale pale na kwamba Russia hana haki ya kuiamulia Ukraine mambo yake.

maneno bila vitendo ni taarab au mziki kama miziki mengine
hakuna siku utaiona UKRAINE ikiwa NATO kama waingojea utaingojea mpaka kufa kwako

 

[kabiriga]

Nafikiri huwajui vizuri Urusi,
Kwa ufupi wanachokisema sio wanachokifanya ,wanachokifanya sio wanacho kisema

 

[Imeloa]

maneno bila vitendo ni taarab au mziki kama miziki mengine
hakuna siku utaiona UKRAINE ikiwa NATO kama waingojea utaingojea mpaka kufa kwako

Let us close this baseless argument because we won't gain anything out of it, after all none of us is a Russian or Ukrainian.

Those are neighbours in glass houses and neither of them is ready to throw a rock and that's why the belligerent Russians have decided to demobilize peacefully.

 

[The 13]

Eti urusi inaogopa kuivamia Ukraine [emoji16] unaongea ukiwa tandale or gongolamboto nini mzehe!!!!!!

Madai yake yame kataliwa na majeshi anarudisha home.

 

[The 13]

Tatizo watz tuna ujuaji wa kinonko sana.

Urusi ikiamua itaivamia Ukraine na Marekani hatofanya chochote zaidi kulialia na kuweka vikwazo.

Marekani na vibaraka wake wangekuwa na nia ya kweli kuisaidia Ukraine wangeisadia kukomboa majimbo mawili yanayo shikiliwa na waasi.

Inashangaza eti jeshi ambalo limeshindwa na kukundi cha waasi chenye wapiganaji wasiozidi 50,000 eti kije kukabiliana na moja wapo ya jeshi kubwa duniani.

Iwapo vita itatokea nakuhakikishia jeshi la Ukraine halitaweza kuhimili nguvu ya jeshi la Urusi hata ndani ya wiki mbili.

Ni kweli Kwa sababu wahawana mkataba Wooten na Ukraine si mwanachama wa NATo.Marekan Ashanza kupeleka anti tank.Putin Hawez kuiva mia Ukraine narudi Hawez

 

[The 13]

Mwisho wa wiki hii Russia wanaingia hapo Ukraine. Us hana ubavu wa kumzuia Russia

Una ifananisha Ukraine na Tz. ni ya 22 kijeshi duniani.

 

[The 13]

Huyo Hitler alipigwa na Warusi na siyo taifa lingine kamaulikuwa hujui sasa ujue

Rudi kasome bila Marekan Ujeruman ingeshinda vita.

 

[The 13]

Wanadanganywa na movies za waingereza na USA. Hawjaui mpk Leo bila Russia UK ingekuwa majivu

Pia bila Marekan Russia au umaoja wa kisoviet usinge kuwepo.

 

[The 13]

Hao watu wa Ulaya na NATO waziingize kwenye umoja huo wa NATO hizo Ukraine na Georgia kama kweli wapo serious kuitisha Russia. Russia anaogopa adui wa ndani ya nchi yake haogopi adui kutoka nje.
====
Dawa ya NATO inachemka.

Mbona husemi kama uyo Russia amechezea kichapo na hicho kinchi kidogo Cha Georgia

 

[kindu tokolotee]

Hata USA hana ubavu wa kuzuia mradi wa bomba la gas, sababu gas inayopatikana toka russia ni rahisi kuliko inayopatikana marekani.

Haushangai kansela wa ujerumani alipeleka helmets 5000 kama support kwa ukrain ?

Mnufaikaji mkubwa wa gas ya urusi ni German.

Na kama vita itatokea ulaya haiwez ku stand against Russia kamwe, narudia kamwe even China na India wakiamua kuunga mkono bado sababu Russia technologia ya silaha yuko far sana na compete na Marekani na hata baadhi ya technolojia marekani hana kama hypersonic missile.

Kama wachambuzi wabobezi baadhi walivyochambua kwenye huu uzi uko juu ni issue ya uchumi ndo inaweza kusababisha Russia asimponde Ukrain. Na sio vitisho vya Western bloc wakiongozwa na USA.

Unafatilia Sana siasa za huko umechambuwa vizur saana mkuuu

Sent from my Infinix X606D using JamiiForums mobile app

 

[The 13]

Hata USA hana ubavu wa kuzuia mradi wa bomba la gas, sababu gas inayopatikana toka russia ni rahisi kuliko inayopatikana marekani.

Haushangai kansela wa ujerumani alipeleka helmets 5000 kama support kwa ukrain ?

Mnufaikaji mkubwa wa gas ya urusi ni German.

Na kama vita itatokea ulaya haiwez ku stand against Russia kamwe, narudia kamwe even China na India wakiamua kuunga mkono bado sababu Russia technologia ya silaha yuko far sana na compete na Marekani na hata baadhi ya technolojia marekani hana kama hypersonic missile.

Kama wachambuzi wabobezi baadhi walivyochambua kwenye huu uzi uko juu ni issue ya uchumi ndo inaweza kusababisha Russia asimponde Ukrain. Na sio vitisho vya Western bloc wakiongozwa na USA.

India hawez kuingilia .pia china ana uwadui majiran zake wote kasoro Korea kaskazin.Ujeruman ina Hela anawez nunua gesi kokote Urussi ndo loser ndoman madai yake yame kataliwa na majeshi anarudisha.afu aliyevkwambia Us anauza gesi nani? yaye anazalisha pia nimtumiaj mkibwa kiasi kwamba ana import

 

[ldleo]

Hadi kufikia Februari 13, matajiri 96 kati ya 100 nchini Ukraine wamekimbia, huku wabunge 37 wa bunge la nchi hiyo pia wamekimbilia nje ya nchi.
Akikasirishwa na hilo, Rais wa Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky amewataka "wakimbiaji" hao kurudi nyumbani ndani ya saa 24, la sivyo "watakabiliwa na madhara makubwa".