If God knows the future (omniscient), can you change your destiny?

[Kiranga]

Adam aliumbwa bila kifo ila kifo kilikuja baada ya kula mti wa katikati,rejea kauli ya Mungu alipowaambia kuwa mkila tunda la mti huo mtakufa,kama walikuwa wanakufa tangu mwanzo asingewaambia hilo

Kilichotokea ni Mungu kuweka ulinzi kwenye bustani ya eden ili Adam asijekula mti wa uzima wakaishi milele,kumbuka mti huu waliruhusiwa kula matunda yake kabla ya wao kula huo mti wa ujuzi wa mema na mabaya,aliweka ulinzi ili wasije wakala na wakaishi milele

Hiyo inamaana kuwa tunda la ujuzi wa mema na mabaya liliwasababishia kifo lakini kama wangekula tunda la uzima wangeishi milele kitu ambacho hakikuwa chema kwa Mungu

Mungu alitaka tuishi milele lakini bila kuwa na ujuzi wa mema na mabaya kwakuwa hatukustahili hilo,lakini tulipokula ndipo kifo kilipozaliwa ndani mwetu

How?

Ishmael aliposema kuwa Mugu yuko juu ya logic hakusema kuwa Mungu ni kinyume cha logic bali Mungu ni zaidi ya logic

Logic tulionayo haiwezi na imeshindwa kuthibitisha uwepo wa Mungu kwa namna ya kushikika kama vile unavyoweza kuona kuwa 2+2=4 na unaiona nne,kama kuna logic inayoweza kufanya hivyo basi sio hii tuliyonayo ni nyingine ambayo ni kubwa kuliko hii

Mtu anapohoji kifo na jinsi mungu alivyoachia kifo, hahoji tu jinsi Adam alivyokufa.

Mimi nahoji ule uwezekano mzima wa kifo kuwezekana, ambao lazima uliumbwa na mungu katika original configurations za ulimwengu kwa mujibu wa worldview yenu. Kwa nini mungu aliachia uwezekano wa kifo kuwepo hata kabla Adam hajaumbwa?

Au unataka kusema mungu hakuumba uwezekano wa kifo, ulimshinda tu na kutokea wenyewe?

Unawezaje kuthibitisha kwamba mungu yupo, let alone yuko zaidi ya logic?

Huwezi kuanza kuzungumzia kwamba mungu yupo juu ya logic kabla hata hujathibitisha kwamba mungu yupo.

Hilo litakuwa ni sawa na kurahisisha argument yako by fiat.

Mtu mwingine anaweza kutumia non argument yako na kusema "Santa Claus exists and he lives at the North Pole, you can't really see him because he is beyond logic".

What is the difference between that and you saying mungu yupo juu ya logic?

Tutajuaje kwamba hili ni jambo la kweli na si hadithi tu?

Unaweza kuthibitisha?

Nishaongelea sana habari za "Deus ex machina" hapa. Inaonekana hii habari ya mungu kuwa juu ya logic ni classic "Deus ex machina".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

 

[Ishmael]

Kwa taarifa yako tu humu mimi si mgeni. Nipo toka enzi za Jamboforums. Nadhani huu uzi utakuwa hauna maana tena kama umeanza kuhusisha matusi na kashfa na kutoka kwenye mantiki yenyewe. Lakini kwa mtu mwerevu ataelewa nani analeta ushoga hapa.

Taratiibu mchoma mkaa, lakini bado hujaelezea na au pinga kwanini most of non theists are gays. Zaidi ya hapo, kuwa gay sidhani kama ni matusi zaidi ya kuwa ni tabia ya mtu kama ile ya kupinga kuwa hakuna Mungu. Zote hizo ni tabia.

 

[Ishmael]

Tunatumia Gregorian calendar ndugu mali ya kanisa ulitaka nitumie term ipi uelewe au ulitaka nitumie Egyptian calendar au the accurate persian calendar? Au labda ningeandika BCE (Before Common era).

Kiukweli hujajibu chochote hata kimoja wala sijaona huo ushahidi unaousema. Kuandika BC hakujustify uwepo wa yesu. The question was so simple. Pata muda usome vitabu vingine nje ya biblia itasaidia kuamsha bongo.

Kwanini mtumie mali ya Kanisa, yaani unaniambia kuwa, Wana sayansi, wana filosofia, na wapinga Mungu, wameshindwa na Kanisa? Kumbe Kanisa ni kila kitu.

Kalenda inayo tumika mpaka kwenye PC ni ya Kikristu na aliye sababisha hayo unamfahamu. NI YESU. Hayo mautumbo ya miaka ya 90's kujaribu kuunda BCE ambayo mimi naweza kusema ni Before Christ Error vile vile. Still there is a reason to think, WHY JESUS CHANGED THE WAY OF LIVING. Hili sio swali la kukimbiwa bali ni swali la Msingi.

 

[Eiyer]

Kupinga kwamba kitu kipo hakuhitaji ushahidi. Unaweza kupinga kwa kuomba ushahidi wa unachopinga tu.

After all, kama kitu hakipo, huwezi kuwa na ushahidi kwamba hakipo. Kwa sababu ili kuwa na ushahidi inabidi kiwepo.

Anayesema kitu kipo ndiye anayepaswa kutoa ushahidi, si anayehoji kama kipo.

Sasa wewe unaweza kunipa ushahidi kwamba mungu yupo? Ushahidi ambao utaweza kuthibitisha kwamba mungu yupo na hauwezi kuwepo kama mungu hayupo?

Naomba ushahidi huo kama unaweza kuuleta hapa.

1;Kwanini unataka ushahidi wa uwepo wa Mungu?
2;Wewe unajua Mungu yupo au hayupo?

 

[Eiyer]

Mtu anapohoji kifo na jinsi mungu alivyoachia kifo, hahoji tu jinsi Adam alivyokufa.

Mimi nahoji ule uwezekano mzima wa kifo kuwezekana, ambao lazima uliumbwa na mungu katika original configurations za ulimwengu kwa mujibu wa worldview yenu. Kwa nini mungu aliachia uwezekano wa kifo kuwepo hata kabla Adam hajaumbwa?

Au unataka kusema mungu hakuumba uwezekano wa kifo, ulimshinda tu na kutokea wenyewe?

Unawezaje kuthibitisha kwamba mungu yupo, let alone yuko zaidi ya logic?

Huwezi kuanza kuzungumzia kwamba mungu yupo juu ya logic kabla hata hujathibitisha kwamba mungu yupo.

Hilo litakuwa ni sawa na kurahisisha argument yako by fiat.

Mtu mwingine anaweza kutumia non argument yako na kusema "Santa Claus exists and he lives at the North Pole, you can't really see him because he is beyond logic".

What is the difference between that and you saying mungu yupo juu ya logic?

Tutajuaje kwamba hili ni jambo la kweli na si hadithi tu?

Unaweza kuthibitisha?

Nishaongelea sana habari za "Deus ex machina" hapa. Inaonekana hii habari ya mungu kuwa juu ya logic ni classic "Deus ex machina".

Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Huu wimbo wako unaweza kuwa na maana au usiwe na maana hadi ujibu hilo swali hapo chini

Kwako wewe Mungu yupo au hayupo?

 

[Kiranga]

1;Kwanini unataka ushahidi wa uwepo wa Mungu?
2;Wewe unajua Mungu yupo au hayupo?

1. Kwa sababu kuna wengi wanasema yupo bila ushahidi.

2. Kwa ushahidi gani? Kwa ushahidi huu mnaotupa hapa, hauonyeshi kwamba mungu yupo. Unaonyesha mungu ni hadithi tu.

 

[Kiranga]

Huu wimbo wako unaweza kuwa na maana au usiwe na maana hadi ujibu hilo swali hapo chini

Kwako wewe Mungu yupo au hayupo?

Kwa hiyo unakubali kwamba inawezekana habari za mungu ni hadithi tu?

 

[Ishmael]

1. Kwa sababu kuna wengi wanasema yupo bila ushahidi.

2. Kwa ushahidi gani? Kwa ushahidi huu mnaotupa hapa, hauonyeshi kwamba mungu yupo. Unaonyesha mungu ni hadithi tu.

Hawezi kukujibu zaidi ya kukupa ngonjera.

 

[Eiyer]

Eiyer if God didnt create "death" how could they have died? The concept of death was always there. God could have created a world were there is no death, but he didnt. Infact, he created the universal life constant.

If God is beyong logic does it mean he violates logic? Isnt logic part of him?

it could have been plausible kama ungesema our knowledge abou God is limited but the little we know should atleast be logical....

Kazi tunayo hadi mtakapoelewa

Unatakiwa ujue kuwa Mungu hakuumba dunia iliyopungua bali iliyokamilifu lakini ili iendelee kuwa hivyo mamlaka hayo yalikuwa mikononi mwa Adam

Pale alipochemka tu na kumkubalia Shetani kumdanganya hiyo ilimaanisha kuwa alimkabidhi mamlaka aliyopewa na Mungu ya kutawala kila kitu na kumkabidhi shetani

Tangu siku ile kuna mambo ambayo yanatokea kwasababu ya Shetani,mfano wa hili ni kifo chenyewe na nyoka kukosa miguu

Mungu alimuumba binadamu bila ya kifo lakini kifo kilikuja kwasababu ya shetani
Mungu alimuumba nyoka akiwa na miguu lakini alikosa miguu kwasababu ya shetani!

 

[Eiyer]

1. Kwa sababu kuna wengi wanasema yupo bila ushahidi.

Kwahiyo unataka ushahidi kwaajili ya wengine na sio wewe?

2. Kwa ushahidi gani? Kwa ushahidi huu mnaotupa hapa, hauonyeshi kwamba mungu yupo. Unaonyesha mungu ni hadithi tu.

Hujaibu nilichokuuliza

Nimekuuliza wewe unajua Mungu yupo au hayupo,sijakuambia kwa mujibu wa ushahidi wowote ule

Jibu swali!

 

[Eiyer]

Kwa hiyo unakubali kwamba inawezekana habari za mungu ni hadithi tu?

Yaani badala ya kujibu unauliza,tena unauliza swali ambalo hata halihusiani na nilichokuuliza

Sijasema kama nakubali au nakataa chochote,nimekuuliza kama kwako wewe Mungu yupo au hayupo
Jibu swali tafadhali!

 

[Kiranga]

Kwahiyo unataka ushahidi kwaajili ya wengine na sio wewe?

Hujaibu nilichokuuliza

Nimekuuliza wewe unajua Mungu yupo au hayupo,sijakuambia kwa mujibu wa ushahidi wowote ule

Jibu swali!

Anayesema anajua hajui maana ya kujua.

Anayejua maana ya kujua, atajikita kwenye kuchunguza.

Kujua ni nyumba ya ujinga.

 

[Otorong'ong'o]

Before Christ is enough. Jiulize tu, kwanini Wamtumie Yesu Mungu? I mean, DUNIA nzima inaamua kubadilisha tarehe, kisa, kazaliwa Yesu!!!

Jiulize, kwanini wise men from far east walienda kumwona huyo Al Masih? Yaani hata PC yako, Simu yako, Kalenda yako, Gazeti la leo, etc zote zinafuata tarehe za YESU? HATA WANA SAYANSI, WANA HISTORIA NA DUNIA NZIMA MPAKA MWEZINI, wote wanakiri kuwa huu ni mwaka wa 2014. KISA, YESU KAZALIWA!!!!

jiulize, HUYU YESU, KIVIPI ABADILISHE MWENENDO WA HISTORIA? Watu walikuwa wanaishi kama kawaida, mara, YESU Kazaliwa, teyari Wafalme, Wanafilosofia, Waalimu, Mawakili, Wanafunzi, kila sehemu, wanaanza kuhesabu miaka UPYAAA, na ile ya zamani waniita BC!!! KISA Kazaliwa Yesu Mungu.

Jiulize kwanini hii Dunia yote mpaka hii leo bado wanatumia tarehe za Yesu, eti huu ni mwaka 2014, KISA KAZALIWA YESU.

Jiulize, kwanini iwepo BC? Kwanini wasinge endelea kuhesabu miaka yao, KISA KAZALIWA YESU

Sasa wewe unakiri kuwa, HUYU YESU alitembea kwenye maji, na hata Historia ipo inakubali, nani mwingine alifanya hayo?

Hebu NIAMBIE, nani mwinge aliweza kupaa hewani bila ya kutumia chombo/ YESU KAPAA BILA YA CHOMBO.

Niambie wapi hapa DUNIA ambapo hawamfahamu YESU? Hata Ukienda Makkah, Ukienda Roma, Ukienda Russia, Ukienda Uchina, wote wanafahamu kuwa huu ni mwaka 2014, KISA KAZALIWA YESU.

Namaliza kwa KISEMA

YESU NI MUNGU

Ahsanta! God Jesus Christ bless you

 

[Eiyer]

Anayesema anajua hajui maana ya kujua.

Kwanini unasema hapa kila uchao kuwa unataka kujua?

Anayejua maana ya kujua, atajikita kwenye kuchunguza.

Kauli kama "Mungu hayupo","Mungu ni story tu" ni za kutafiti?

Kujua ni nyumba ya ujinga.

Kwamaana hiyo wewe unautaka ujinga kwakuwa unadai hapa kila leo unataka kujua

Hii ina maana kuwa hata ujinga huujui maana ungekuwa unaujua usingeuhitaji
Hivyo wewe ni mjinga,right?

 

[Kiranga]

Kwanini unasema hapa kila uchao kuwa unataka kujua?

Kwa sababu hakuna kujua hata kwamba hakuna kujua.

Kauli kama "Mungu hayupo","Mungu ni story tu" ni za kutafiti?

Hakuna utafiti usio na challenge question/ premise. My challenge to you is that premise. Mungu hayupo, kama yupo thibitisha.

Hujaweza mpaka sasa kuthibitisha.

Kwamaana hiyo wewe unautaka ujinga kwakuwa unadai hapa kila leo unataka kujua

The convergence from ignorance is worthwhile even as perfect knowledge may remain illusive due to the fact that the mere act of seeking perfect knowledge interferes with the perfect state of that knowledge.

I doubt you can wrap your head around that.

Hii ina maana kuwa hata ujinga huujui maana ungekuwa unaujua usingeuhitaji
Hivyo wewe ni mjinga,right?

Wrap your head around the above first and then maybe you could aspire to dream to think of shining the boots of those who understand me.

 

[Eiyer]

Kwa sababu hakuna kujua hata kwamba hakuna kujua.



Hakuna utafiti usio na challenge question/ premise. My challenge to you is that premise. Mungu hayupo, kama yupo thibitisha.

Hujaweza mpaka sasa kuthibitisha.



The convergence from ignorance is worthwhile even as perfect knowledge may remain illusive due to the fact that the mere act of seeking perfect knowledge interferes with the perfect state of that knowledge.

I doubt you can wrap your head around that.



Wrap your head around the above first and then maybe you could aspire to dream to think of shining the boots of those who understand me.

Wacha maneno mingi kwani haikusaidii chochote

Kama hutaki kujua unataka nini hapa kwenye huu uzi?

 

[Kiranga]

Wacha maneno mingi kwani haikusaidii chochote

Kama hutaki kujua unataka nini hapa kwenye huu uzi?

Wapi nimeandika sitaki kujua?

I told you, you just cannot wrap your head around what I write here, and therein lies the first problem.

 

[housegirl]

1. Logic is not part of God's attributes.
2. Logic came to existence for you to comprehend things. In fact, God doesn't need logic, He is above logic

Miano ya Kibilia: Isaiah 40:
25"To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars, The One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name; Because of the greatness of His might and the strength of His power, Not one of them is missing.…

SWALI HILI HAPA:
Isaiah 46: 5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Ishmael Do you accept reasoning or do you frown upon reasoning?

 

[Ishmael]

Kwanini unasema hapa kila uchao kuwa unataka kujua?

Kauli kama "Mungu hayupo","Mungu ni story tu" ni za kutafiti?

Kwamaana hiyo wewe unautaka ujinga kwakuwa unadai hapa kila leo unataka kujua

Hii ina maana kuwa hata ujinga huujui maana ungekuwa unaujua usingeuhitaji
Hivyo wewe ni mjinga,right?

Umemshika pabaya huyu. Huyo anasifa zote mbili: Za Ujinga na Upumbavuh, maana ndio navyo itwa kwenye Zaburi 14:1

 

[Ishmael]

Wanazuoni:

Kuna sababu kuu ambayo ilimfanya Mwenyezi Mungu kusema kuwa, "Mpumbavuh" kasema kuwa hakuna Mungu moyoni mwake (Ushaidi upo ndani ya Zaburi ya Daudi). Sasa basi leo tujiratibu na maneno haya mawili: Tofauti baina ya Mpumbavuh na Mjinga.

Wanazuoni, elewa kuwa kusoma kwingi sio kuufuta ujinga kama wanavyo dai wapinga Mungu, bali ni kuupunguza ujinga ulio kuwa aufahamu. Wanadunia wote wana ujinga wa jambo moja au kadhaa, haijalishi elimu yako ni ya wapi au imani yako ni ipi. Wapenzi wa dini kuwa na ujinga wa jambo si kosa, hata Profesa wa Fizikia wa Marekani anaweza asijue namna ya kupika Ugali lakini Binti wa kutoka Kijiji cha Nangurukuru anaweza kuwa hodari wa jambo hilo kumshinda Profesa. Hilo si kosa wala dhanbi.

Lakini "mpumbavuh" upumbavuh ni ile hali ya binadamu kufanya jambo isivyotakiwa huku akiwa na uelewa na au ufahamu wa namna ya kufanya inavyotakiwa na au huna ueleo kuwa ufahamu wako si ukweli/kweli, na kung'ang'ania kuwa unacho elewa ndio sahihi, kisa, eti, mimi nimefuta ujinga zaidi ya yule mpenzi wa dini. Huo ndio upumbavuh wa Non Theists. Kila mmoja wetu ana ujinga wake. Kuwa na ujinga wa jambo fulani ni kutoelewa jambo hilo. Ni nani anayeelewa kila jambo hapa duniani zaidi ya Yesu Kristo? Lakini Non-theists wao wanafikiri kuwa wanaelewa kila kitu huku wakifahamu kuwa wao bado hawana majibu ya kivipi jiwe litengeneze "maisha" au life.

Allahamdullilah, wanadunia tumejaliwa akili ili tuweze kufikiri na kuongeza ufahamu kwa kukubali kujifunza. Inakuwaje basi mwanadamu anapoacha kufikiri na kudai kuwa eti Fulani hayupo au hajawai kuwepo kwasababu sijawai kumuona?

Mwenyezi Mungu Subhanahu wa Taala anasema kuwa, Mpumbavuh kasema moyoni mwake kuwa Mungu hayupo. Hili ni jambo lakujiuliza, kwanini Mungu awaite wale Wapumbavuh.