Kifo hakipangwi na Mungu

[kahtaan]

Heheheee.....sasa mbona unanisonya Reina?

😛

Umeanza mipasho!
Teh teh teh .
Mtoto wa kiume hatari wewe!!

Umesonywa au sio? Halafu mcheko wako unaniuaa! Ka khadija kopa jukwaani.
Teh teh teh

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Nimekasirika.
Naamini lakini sijui. Hiyo hali siipendi.

Oh..pole basi.

Hakuna ubaya wowote katika kuamini madhali binadamu tuna mapungufu.

Sidhani kama kuna mtu ambaye anaishi bila ya kuwa na imani.

Imani ni sehemu ya maisha. Mtu huwezi kujua kila kitu na kwa yale ambaye huwezi kuyajua hapo ndo imani inapochukua nafasi yake.

Hebu fikiria hili....nadhani utakuwa ushawahi kunywa soda...Pepsi😉.

Hiyo Pepsi una uhakika gani huko ilikotoka [kiwandani] ilitengenezwa kwa kukidhi viwango vyako vya usafi?

Una uhakika gani kama hakuna mtu aliyedondoshea tone au matone ya mate yake?

Kwa kifupi ni kwamba, kama hukuwepo kuona ilivyokuwa inasindikwa basi huna uhakika wa kutosha kwamba ilisindikwa katika mazingira yanayokidhi viwango vyako.

Lakini, hilo halikufanyi wewe uache kunywa Pepsi. Na kikubwa kinachokufanya unywe hiyo Pepsi ni imani ya kwamba ni safi, la sivyo usingekunywa.

Sidhani kama ukishuhudia mtu anadondosha mate yake ndani ya hiyo Pepsi na kukupa unywe, kama utakunywa.

Huo ni mfano mmoja tu unaothibitisha kwamba imani ni sehemu kubwa sana ya maisha yetu.

Haiepukiki.

Kwa hiyo usikasirike kushindwa kujua kama kweli mungu yupo au la.

Kuna mengi tu ambayo huyajui na huwa unategemea imani kuyakubali.

 

[Kiranga]

Kwa imani yangu nasoma biblia ndiyo guide yangu ya kuimarisha imani yangu, nakuombea kiranga upate pia muda wa kumwamini Mungu kabla hujaondoka duniani,, narudia kusema 'swali kuhusu Mungu halina jibu' unapaswa kumwamini basi

Sitaki kuamini, nataka kujua.

 

[Kiranga]

Siku zote nilikuwa nadhani naongea na Mtu mzima kumbe toto la mwaka 1982?

Ndio maaana nilikuwa nashindwa kuelewa Kosa lako ni nini.
Kumbe toto dogo bado.

Nani kakwambia mimi ni toto la 1982?

There you go with your funny assumptions again.

Mtu akiandika anataka kurudi 1982, hujui kwa nini, usga assume kwamba ni "toto la 1982".

In 1982 I was reading Mzalendo already.

The joke is in you jack.

 

[kahtaan]

Nani kakwambia mimi ni toto la 1982?

There you go with your funny assumptions again.

Mtu akiandika anataka kurudi 1982, hujui kwa nini, usga assume kwamba ni "toto la 1982".

In 1982 I was reading Mzalendo already.

The joke is in you jack.

Teh teh teh.
Basi nikadhani hutojibu.
Nadhani nimepiga msumari kwenye kidonda.

Kumbe kiranga Una umri sawa na mdogo wangu wa 8?
Dah....
Aisee nisameh sana kwa kutokulijua hili.
Nilikuwa nadhani unajua kipi unaandika. Leo nimejua.

Unadai Kuamini bila kujua ni sawa na Msukule hali ya kuwa Wewe inaamini 100/100 kuna kifo lkn Hukijui.

Unakubalu wazi kabisa kuwa Wewe ji sawa na Msukule. Lkn siwezi kukulaumu. Ukikua Utaacha.

 

[Mish Albert]

Sijataka kumpangia mungu wako, nataka kujua kama unamuelewa na mimi kumuelewa pia. Kwa sababu kwa sasa hivi ha make sense.

Habari ya kwamba mungu katuumba na free will si kweli.

Mimi nataka kurudi 1982, siwezi kurudi. Free will iko wapi hapo?

Mmmh

Mimi nafikiri bila causation hata hiyo freewill isingekuwepo au?

 

[Reina princess]

Oh..pole basi.

Hakuna ubaya wowote katika kuamini madhali binadamu tuna mapungufu.

Sidhani kama kuna mtu ambaye anaishi bila ya kuwa na imani.

Imani ni sehemu ya maisha. Mtu huwezi kujua kila kitu na kwa yale ambaye huwezi kuyajua hapo ndo imani inapochukua nafasi yake.

Hebu fikiria hili....nadhani utakuwa ushawahi kunywa soda...Pepsi😉.

Hiyo Pepsi una uhakika gani huko ilikotoka [kiwandani] ilitengenezwa kwa kukidhi viwango vyako vya usafi?

Una uhakika gani kama hakuna mtu aliyedondoshea tone au matone ya mate yake?

Kwa kifupi ni kwamba, kama hukuwepo kuona ilivyokuwa inasindikwa basi huna uhakika wa kutosha kwamba ilisindikwa katika mazingira yanayokidhi viwango vyako.

Lakini, hilo halikufanyi wewe uache kunywa Pepsi. Na kikubwa kinachokufanya unywe hiyo Pepsi ni imani ya kwamba ni safi, la sivyo usingekunywa.

Sidhani kama ukishuhudia mtu anadondosha mate yake ndani ya hiyo Pepsi na kukupa unywe, kama utakunywa.

Huo ni mfano mmoja tu unaothibitisha kwamba imani ni sehemu kubwa sana ya maisha yetu.

Haiepukiki.

Kwa hiyo usikasirike kushindwa kujua kama kweli mungu yupo au la.

Kuna mengi tu ambayo huyajui na huwa unategemea imani kuyakubali.

Ni kweli na ndo maana nimeamua kuamini, lakini katika kuamini huko....akili kumkichwa.

 

[Kiranga]

Mmmh

Mimi nafikiri bila causation hata hiyo freewill isingekuwepo au?

Free will is an illussion.

Nimeukiza nataka kurudi 1982, nina free will gani ya kurudi 1982?

 

[Mish Albert]

Free will is an illussion.

Nimeuliza nataka kurudi 1982, nina free will gani ya kurudi 1982?

Nawe hujajibu swali langu
Freewill bila causation inawezekana?

 

[Kiranga]

Nawe hujajibu swali langu
Freewill bila causation inawezekana?

Msingi wa swali lako ni nini?

Free will ni uchaguzi, inahusikaje na causation?

Causation is another anthropic illusion.

At the quantum level, causation breaks down.

Everything is probabilistic.

The illussion of causation is borne out of the poverty of our anthropic minds.

 

[Mish Albert]

Msingi wa swali lako ni nini?

Free will ni uchaguzi, inahusikaje na causation?

Causation is another anthropic illusion.

At the quantum level, causation breaks down.

Everything is probabilistic.

The illussion of causation is borne out of the poverty of our anthropic minds.

Yeah,causation break at quantum level but fortunately we're not at such level

All quantum strangeness vanish at large scale of nature
so my question is still valid

There is logical connection between freewill and causation,you can't have one without another

 

[Kiranga]

Yeah,causation break at quantum level but fortunately we're not at such level

All quantum strangeness vanish at large scale of nature
so my question is still valid

There is logical connection between freewill and causation,you can't have one without another

If causation can be questioned and found wanting at any level, it can't be that fundamental.

If it is not that fundamental, it is trivial and anthropic.

Are you limiting your reasoning at the anthropic scale?

That would contradict belief in god.

You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don't.

Weak arguments are bound to be exposed by logical inconsistencies and/ or contradictions.

 

[Mish Albert]

If causation can be questioned and found wanting at any level, it can't be that fundamental.

If it is not that fundamental, it is trivial and anthropic.

Are you limiting your reasoning at the anthropic scale?

That would contradict belief in god.

You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don't.

Weak arguments are bound to be exposed by logical inconsistencies and/ or contradictions.

First,causation is not trivial,it's necessary

Though quantum world is so probabilistic ,there is no any recorded phenomenon that lack causal structure

If causation is so trivial,why then our universe is coherent?

Ok let's return to the key problem,
The problem of evil

God allowed existence of evil for greater good

If evil wouldn't exist one could not differentiate good from wrong

Evil exist to teach us which is wrong and which is right

That's why God allowed it

 

[Kiranga]

First,causation is not trivial,it's necessary

If it is necessary, then why it is not universal?

Though quantum world is so probabilistic ,there is no any recorded phenomenon that lack causal structure

What do you understand about the quantum world? What do you understand about Heisenberg? What do you understand about the wave particle duality? You seem to not understand anything about these things.

If you did, you wouldn't say "no any" (sic) "recorded phenomenon that lack causal structure.

If causation is so trivial,why then our universe is coherent?

What has coherency got to do with causation? Is the universe really coherent? Can you tell me why we can only move forward in time but not backwards if our universe is really coherent?

Ok let's return to the key problem,
The problem of evil

God allowed existence of evil for greater good

Does that mean god was incapable of creating a world that does not have evil but still achieved the same greater good?

If evil wouldn't exist one could not differentiate good from wrong

Was god incapable of creating a world that had no evil but only good?

Why is differentiating good and evil so important if it means tainting the world with evil?

Evil exist to teach us which is wrong and which is right

Why would an all knowing all capable all loving god allow evil just to teach us which is wong and which is right?

Couldn't god have restricted evil to the unattainable (just as ,oving back in time) and at the same time making us capable of knowing good and evil (just as we know about moving back in time)?

Couldn't god otherwise create a world without evil and reach whatever goals he wanted to reach?

You sound like your god was limited, and had no way to create the universe except with evil.

Is that god really all powerful and all knowledgeable?

That's why God allowed it

The reasoning is weak.It gives us a god who has all love, all knowledge and all power but still cerate a universe that allows harm and evil to his creation, under the excuse that he wants to teach them.

Couldn't this god have taught his creation without going through all the unnecessary pain and evil?

If he couldn't, then he is not all powerful.

If he could but still didn't, then he is not all loving.

Your god contradicts himself.

 

[Mish Albert]

I
What do you understand about the quantum?What do you understand about Heisenberg? What do you understand about the wave particle duality?

Both uncertainty principle and matter waves have nothing to do with causation

Heinsenberg's principle implies quantum chaos and not violation of causation

For causation to be violated one must move faster than light which is impractical

Can you tell me why we can only move forward in time but not backwards if our universe is really coherent?

Universe governed by deterministic physical laws
The same laws prevent us from movin' back in time

Coherence doesn't allow violation of natural laws

Was god incapable of creating a world that had no evil but only good?

Your question is flawed

It seems your entire argument rest on premise of duality

Evil exist only in our perception,but in reality it does not
It's only absence of good

It's logically wrong to view evil as substantive entity

What's your definition of evil?

 

[Kiranga]

Both uncertainty principle and matter waves have nothing to do with causation

If you can't determine a position and momentum of a particle in a non probabilistic manner, how can you pin down causation in a non probabilistic manner?

Heinsenberg's principle implies quantum chaos and not violation of causation

How can you pinpoint causation in chaos?

For causation to be violated one must move faster than light which is impractical

How do you know that is the only way causation is violated?

Universe governed by deterministic physical laws
The same laws prevent us from movin' back in time

How can you say the universe is governed by deterministic physical laws just after saying Heisenberg's uncertainty principle implies quantum chaos?

Coherence doesn't allow violation of natural laws

You got it backwards, natural laws do not allow incoherence.

One incoherence is a godhead who knows all, is capable of all, has all love but yet creates a universe that allows evil.

That is not only incoherent, but also contradictory.

Your question is flawed

It seems your entire argument rest on premise of duality

Evil exist only in our perception,but in reality it does not

Why does evil exist even in our perception? Did god fail to create in which evil did not exist even in our perception?

It's only absence of good

It's logically wrong to view evil as substantive entity

What's your definition of evil?

How can you ask me the definition of evil after talking all that about evil?

Anything that is harmful and injurious is evil. Why would an all knowing, all loving and all capable godhead create an universe in which evil is possible while he could have created a universe in which evil is not possible?

You have not answered this question.

Some are telling me that evil must be there for good to be there.

Is this condition applicable to god too?

Could god have created a universe that did not have evil?

If yes, then why did he not? Is he really all loving?

If no, then is god really all powerful?

If you say evil is the absence of god, and god exists in abundance, and god is all these things that you say he is, then we ought not to even perceive of evil.

Why do we perceive it then? Does that mean god's presence is lacking in some way?

How could your god be lacking in any way?

Does this god even exist?

Or is this god just a figment of imagination?

A stitched up, illogical concept that is self contradictory and that can hardly stand upon close scrutiny?

 

[Jajojo]

Kisichopo hakithibitishiki kwa sababu hakipo ili kuthibitishwa.

Uthibitisho ni kwamba, hakuna kisichopo kinachothibitishika, kama kipo kitaje.

Vifuatavyo ni vithibitisho kuwa Mungu yupo:

1. Nchi na mbingu(dunia) tunaoishi ikodesigned kujitoshereza yenyewe, mfano misimu 4 katika mwaka, jua mchana, mwezi na nyota usiku, maji ya bahari hayavuki mipaka yake.
   
   
2. Maji hayana rangi wala test lakini binadamu na mimea tunategemea maji kuishi
   
   
3. Hewa- binadamu tunavuta oxygen tunatoa carbon dioxide mimea inavuta na mzunguko wa mvua.
   
   
4. Binadamu na elements zake na uhusiano katika nchi(udongo).
   
   
5. kulala na kuamka.
   
   
6. DNA na RNA genetic codes kutoka kizazi mpaka kizazi kingine.
   
   
7. Chanzo cha mtoto tumboni mwa mwanamke na kuzaliwa kwake( kama hujawahi kuona mtoto anapozaliwa nakushauri ufanye hivyo)
   
   
8. Tofauti na design ya mwanaume na mwanamke, mwanaume hawazi kuwa mjamzito/mimba
   
   
9. Yesu kuzaliwa kwake na kufufuka kwake na kufa kwake- dunia ilitetemeka na pazia ya hekalu lilipasuka.
   
   
10. Hekaheka ya wewe mweyewe kutaka kuthibitisha kama Mungu yupo in uthibitisho tosha kuwa yupo na unataka kukonnect naye.
    

Mkuu hivyo vitu vichache vinathibitisha kuwa Mungu yupo, lakini uwepo wa Mungu huja kwa Imani pasipo Imani Mungu hayupo. Na kama Mungu angetokea tumwene then Imani inakuwa haina maana. Waebrania 11:6. Mtu anayetaka kumwamini Mungu yupo ni lazima awe na Imani kuwa yeye yupo!! pasipo Imani kweli Mungu atakuwa ni hadithi tu.

Zaburi 14:1 Mungu kweli hayupo kwa kufikilika kimawazo na kiakili- ni kwa Imani tu. Waebrania 11:6.

 

[Mish Albert]

Why does god exist even in our perception? Did god fail to create in which evil did not exist even in our perception?

Your logical questions are greatest temptations to unbelief.I must admit

But if you'll take up a notch,you will see that even the flawless world or a world without evil and existence of free agents are incompatible

Let me explain it deductively;

1.Either freewill and evil are compatible or God doesn't exist
2.To commit evil is part of human's choice
3.Human has freewill,so he can choose whatever he want to choose
4.Since evil is part of choice,then he is free to pick it
5.So,evil and free will are compatible therefore God exist

What i mean is that,God can't do logical impossibilities
If God can cause mankind to make only specific choice[good] in any way,then that choice,in reality is no longer free

If that choice is no longer free,then man is not free agent

Thus your idealized flawless world is self contradictory!

 

[Kiranga]

Vifuatavyo ni vithibitisho kuwa Mungu yupo:

1. Nchi na mbingu(dunia) tunaoishi ikodesigned kujitoshereza yenyewe, mfano misimu 4 katika mwaka, jua mchana, mwezi na nyota usiku, maji ya bahari hayavuki mipaka yake.
   
   
2. Maji hayana rangi wala test lakini binadamu na mimea tunategemea maji kuishi
   
   
3. Hewa- binadamu tunavuta oxygen tunatoa carbon dioxide mimea inavuta na mzunguko wa mvua.
   
   
4. Binadamu na elements zake na uhusiano katika nchi(udongo).
   
   
5. kulala na kuamka.
   
   
6. DNA na RNA genetic codes kutoka kizazi mpaka kizazi kingine.
   
   
7. Chanzo cha mtoto tumboni mwa mwanamke na kuzaliwa kwake( kama hujawahi kuona mtoto anapozaliwa nakushauri ufanye hivyo)
   
   
8. Tofauti na design ya mwanaume na mwanamke, mwanaume hawazi kuwa mjamzito/mimba
   
   
9. Yesu kuzaliwa kwake na kufufuka kwake na kufa kwake- dunia ilitetemeka na pazia ya hekalu lilipasuka.
   
   
10. Hekaheka ya wewe mweyewe kutaka kuthibitisha kama Mungu yupo in uthibitisho tosha kuwa yupo na unataka kukonnect naye.
    

Mkuu hivyo vitu vichache vinathibitisha kuwa Mungu yupo, lakini uwepo wa Mungu huja kwa Imani pasipo Imani Mungu hayupo. Na kama Mungu angetokea tumwene then Imani inakuwa haina maana. Waebrania 11:6. Mtu anayetaka kumwamini Mungu yupo ni lazima awe na Imani kuwa yeye yupo!! pasipo Imani kweli Mungu atakuwa ni hadithi tu.

Zaburi 14:1 Mungu kweli hayupo kwa kufikilika kimawazo na kiakili- ni kwa Imani tu. Waebrania 11:6.

Hujaonyesha hata kimoja kinavyothibitisha kwamba mungu yupo.

Zaidi, vyote ulivyoorodhesha vina mapungufu yanayoonyesha kwamba havikuumbwa na mungu mjuzi wa yote mwenye upendo wote na ujuzi wote.

Kwa mfano, umeandila kuhusu nchi na misimu kujitosheleza.

Unaweza kuniambia kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaumba dunia ambayo inawezekana kuwa na tsunami, tetemeko la ardhi, mafuriko na majanga mengine kama hayo yanayojeruhi watoto wasio na hatia?

Alishindwa kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauna majanga haya?

 

[Kiranga]

Your logical questions are greatest temptations to unbelief.I must admit

But if you'll take up a notch,you will see that even the flawless world or a world without evil and existence of free agents are incompatible

Let me explain it deductively;

1.Either freewill and evil are compatible or God doesn't exist
2.To commit evil is part of human's choice
3.Human has freewill,so he can choose whatever he want to choose
4.Since evil is part of choice,then he is free to pick it
5.So,evil and free will are compatible therefore God exist

What i mean is that,God can't do logical impossibilities
If God can cause mankind to make only specific choice[good] in any way,then that choice,in reality is no longer free

If that choice is no longer free,then man is not free agent

Thus your idealized flawless world is self contradictory!

If the questions are most tempting, it is because they carry a deep truth.

If god can't do logical impossibilities, then that god is not all powerful.

He is limited by logic.

He is subject to logic.

That is not an all powerful god. God cannot use the logic excuse to justify evil. There is a latin saying that goes like the law serves the people, the people do not serve the law. Similarly, logic should serve god and not the other way around.

If god can't do logical impossibilities and he is powerless to stop evil because of logical impossibilities, then he is a poor designer who did not foresee logical impossibilities causing problems.

But you hold that god is all knowing and incapable of not foreseeing.

That is a logical contradiction.

Moreover, your mumbered flow is non sequitur to me.

Why are you starting with "either free will and evil are compatible or god dors not exist"

Couldn't your god have created a universe in which free will and evil are not compatible (because evil does not exist) and there is only free will amd good?

What stopped him from doing that? Logic?

Didn't he create logic?

If he didn't, who created logic?

God's god?

You subsribe to the fiction that man is a free agent, and that thete is free will.

Free will is an illussion. We can't even move back in time. How free are we? People have genes that make them prone to slcoholism and other predilections, how free are they?

People are born and trapped in countries with poverty and oppression, how free are they?