Kwanini Ulimwengu unafuata hesabu zilizotoka akilini mwa Binadamu? Vita kali dhidi ya Atheists Ep3

[Ibn Unuq]

kuwa agnostic ni upande mzuri kabisa kwasababu huo upande hauna ujuaji na pia ni kukubali kwamba akili ya binadamu ina mipaka ya kuelewa,

kuhusu kuthibitisha ni ngumu kuthibitisha kwa kutumia sentensi mbili au hata aya nzima, swali ambalo wamejiuliza watu kwa maelfu ya miaka

Kwaiyo usitegemee nitakwambia sentensi au maneno fulani ambayo au nikupe picha nikwambie Mungu huyu hapa hakuna binadamu yeyote ataefanya hivyo

au nikuulize uthibitisho unaouhitaji uwe wa namna gani na uwe na vigezo gani. lakini nisisitize kwamba upo upande sahihi hapo ulipo

Ugumu wa swali hauondoi hitaji la justification.
Kama huwezi kueleza hata framework tu ya kuthibitisha, basi claim yako haiwezi kuitwa knowledge tena, inabaki kama belief tu.

Na kama hujui jambo hujui tu, usilazimishe kutafuta assumptions zisizo na msingi ili kujazia hilo gap la kutokujua.

 

[Shilings]

Yafaa kuelewa kwa upande mmoja "Ukweli" na kwa upande mwingine "Sayansi".

Binadamu daima anataka kujua, "kujua ukweli".

Kwa sababu hiyo maarifa ya sayansi yanajitokeza kuwa muhimu kwa kuwa yanashughulikia kweli za kiakili.

Sasa, swali ni je, hilo jambo linalosemwa au hilo neno tunaloita Mungu, ni ukweli?

Katika kutafakari hilo, ni vema kujua kuwa sayansi ni maarifa yanayoendelea. Kwa sababu hiyo ni wazi yapo mambo mengi ambayo bado hatujayajua.

Kama binadamu hapa duniani hatuna kazi nyingine muhimu zaidi ya "kutafuta na kujua ukweli" na kipekee "ukweli kuhusu dini".

Kumbe, kazi kubwa ya mtu duniani, katika umri wake wa kuanza kutumia akili ni, kufikiri na kufanya uchunguzi (utafiti) kujua ukweli kuhusu ulimwengu. Kwa sababu ukweli ndio lengo lake la mwisho.

 

[Smart911]

Ngoja tuone...


Cc: Mahondaw

 

[Infropreneur]

‎Umesema infinite regress ni tatizo la jibu langu.
‎sawa nakubalia ifinite regress ni tatizo.
‎lakini jibu lako kwamba ulimwengu ulikwepo milele ndo infinite regress yenyewe.
‎maananyake ni kwamba umekataa infinite regress kwa upande mmoja na kuikubali kwa upande mwingine.
‎hii ni contradiction ndani ya majibu yako mwenyewe ambayo pia inatupa ukweli mmoja ambao pande zote mbili zinaukubali kwamba infinite regress hairidhishi akili.
‎
‎Umeniuliza kitu hakiwezi kuwa cha milele na kanuni zake?
‎swali lako ni zuri lakini lina tatizo kubwa ndani yake.
‎Kanuni sio kitu kanuni ni mwongozo wa jinsi kitu kinavyofanya kazi.

Huo mwongozo ulikujaje?

‎Kwa mfano sheria ya gravity si kitu unachoweza kukigusa au kukiona ni mwongozo tu. hadi hapa tumefika mahali pazuri sana pa mjadala.
‎pande zote mbili tunakubali infinite regress hairidhishi akili
‎pande zote mbili tunakubali lazima kuwe na kitu cha msingi kisichohitaji chanzo kingine.
‎
‎Tofauti yetu ni moja tu kitu hicho cha msingi ni nini.
‎Wewe unasema ulimwengu uliokwepo milele wenye kanuni bila maelezo ya kanuni hizo.
‎
‎
‎Mimi nasema Akili Kubwa ambayo kwa asili yake ina uwezo wa kuunda kanuni.
‎sasa niambie kwa uaminifu lipi kati ya hayo mawili linaeleweka zaidi

Hiyo akili kubwa si ipo ndani ya ulimwengu ambao tayari upo?

Au ipo wapi?

‎
‎tukiachana na jibu la kimantiki linalotupeleka kwenye infinite regress.
‎Jibu la kisayansi: Second Law Of Thermodynamics inaondoa uwezekano wa Ulimwengu kuwepo milele

 

[Prof Phraoh AI]

Hiyo akili kubwa si ipo ndani ya ulimwengu ambao tayari upo?

Au ipo wapi?

ipo nje ndo maana haihitaji chanzo kama vitu vyote tunavyovijua ndani ya Ulimwengu

 

[Infropreneur]

ipo nje ndo maana haihitaji chanzo kama vitu vyote tunavyovijua ndani ya Ulimwengu

Ulijuaje ipo nje na unathibitishaje?

Au umekisia tu?

 

[Gunner11]

unachukulia for granted. Ubongo umepata wapi uwezo wa ku understand universe


unachukulia for granted kwamba universe ipo calculated lakini hujiulizi how kilichotokea kwa bahati kiwe calculated hivyo
kila kitu unachukulia for granted kwasababu tayari unakiona kipo kwamba akafikiria how ndo akaja na math

computer inaelewa lugha ya computer kwasababu ili undwa ili ielewe
inakua je tumetokea kwa chance kisha tukajikuta tunagundua na kuielewa Math kama ubongo haukuundwa ili uelewe

mbona atom zingine hazielewi, lakini mpangilio sahihi kwenye ubongo unatuwezesha kuelewa

usihukulie kila kitu for granted kwasababu unaona tayari kinafanya kazi

This makes me rethink religion, Kuna maandikonyanasema Mungu alimuumba mwanadam Kwa mfano wake, it's now starting to make a little sense. Huyo mungu ndo energy, universe, whatever you call it

 

[Gunner11]

‎mkuu point zako ni halisi kabisa ndiyo wanasayansi waliunda hesabu kulingana na patterns walizoziona sahihi.
‎pia ni swa, kuna confirmation bias hatari katika mjadala wowote nakubaliana na hilo ni onyo zuri.
‎lakini pointi hizo hazifiki tatizo la msingi na hapa ndipo tutakapoingia.
‎
‎Umesema ninaonyesha theories zilizofanikiwa tu na hilo ni haki.
‎lakini angalia hoja yangu kwa makini sionkwamba hesabu zote zinafanya kazi hoja yangu ni tofauti kabisa:
‎
‎namaanisha hivi mkuu Ibn Unuq
‎
‎Kwa nini akili ya binadamu inaweza kuunda hesabu yoyote inayofanana na muundo wa ulimwengu hata mara moja?
‎
‎Hata kama theories nyingi zimetupwa bado kuna theories zilizofanikiwa. Na swali ni hilo kwa nini zipo kabisa?
‎mfano rahisi chukulia napiga risasi gizani mara elfu na moja inapiga shabaha palepale swali si kwa nini nyingine zilipotea.
‎
‎Swali ni kwa nini moja ilifika kama sikuwa na dira yoyote ?
‎
‎Akili ya binadamu ina dira fulani inayoifanya igundua patterns za ulimwengu dira hiyo inatoka wapi?"
‎
‎pa kuhusu equetions kurekebishwa angalia kinachoendelea pale zinapoboreshwa:
‎
‎Newton aligundua gravity Einstein aliboresha lakini Einstein hakusema Newton alikosea kabisa alisema Newton alikuwa sahihi kwa kiwango fulani na yeye akaenda mbali zaidi.
‎Hii inamaanisha akili ya binadamu inazidi kukaribia ukweli wa ulimwengu polepole lakini inakaribia na ina dira inayoiwezesha.
‎
‎Kuzidi kukaribia ukweli kunamaanisha ukweli huo upo unangoja kugundulika.
‎ukweli unaongoja kugundulika uliwekwa na nani?
‎
‎oia kuhusu unataka nikwambie Mungu ni nini basi acha nikwambie maana nimesharudia mara kwa mara siongei kuhusu Mungu wa dini fulani wala siongei mtu anayekaa mawinguni ana ndevu hapana.
‎
‎kama ulivyosema hujui pia na kweli akili ya binadamu haina uwezo wa kujua gitu vingi mfano binadamu hawezi kuelewa 4th dimension lakini anaona parten na anajua ipo
‎mimi naona pattern inayonielekeza, na pattern hiyo inaelekeza kwenye Akili Kubwa kuliko yote.
‎Sijui kila kitu kuhusu akili hiyo lakini naona alama zake kila mahali Kitu hicho chenye uwezo wa kuweka kanuni, mpangilio, na akili nacho ni Supernatural Intelligence akili Kubwa.
‎Sisi wengine tunaita Mungu. Unaweza kukiita jina lolote lakini swali ni kama kipo sio jina lake.
‎
‎
‎

Mkuu umeelezea vizuri sana,
Nakubaliana na wewe kuhusu dimensions, Kuna jamaa anaitwa Billy Carson anvasemaga universe Ina dimensions 11 otherwise Ina collapse.

 

[Gunner11]

Ugumu wa swali hauondoi hitaji la justification.
Kama huwezi kueleza hata framework tu ya kuthibitisha, basi claim yako haiwezi kuitwa knowledge tena, inabaki kama belief tu.

Na kama hujui jambo hujui tu, usilazimishe kutafuta assumptions zisizo na msingi ili kujazia hilo gap la kutokujua.

Mm nahisi wote mlikuwa na hoja tofauti ambazo zilikwepa lengo LA mleta mada, yeye alizungumzia ile link(connection) wewe ukaja na wazo lako la universe kuwa fundamental na binadamu ndo anataka kujua.. which again haijibu chochote kuhusiana na ile connection ya ugunduzi WA binadamu.
Designer anaweza kuwepo au laa, ila hii connection anayosema mleta mada Ina point na ni facts kabisa

 

[Ibn Unuq]

Mm nahisi wote mlikuwa na hoja tofauti ambazo zilikwepa lengo LA mleta mada, yeye alizungumzia ile link(connection) wewe ukaja na wazo lako la universe kuwa fundamental na binadamu ndo anataka kujua.. which again haijibu chochote kuhusiana na ile connection ya ugunduzi WA binadamu.
Designer anaweza kuwepo au laa, ila hii connection anayosema mleta mada Ina point na ni facts kabisa

Chochote ambacho ni fact can be verified.
Show the basis of that claim and where it comes from.

 

[Gunner11]

Chochote ambacho ni fact can be verified.
Show the basis of that claim and where it comes from.

Iko verified through, examples alizo mention awali,
‎"Ni ajabu isiyoeleweka kwa nini hesabu zilizoundwa bila kujali ulimwengu wa kimwili zinafanya kazi vizuri sana kueleza ulimwengu huo. Hakuna maelezo ya kawaida ya hili." Hicho ndo alicho maanisha kujua hiyo link? Sio kwamba ni kwasababu ya uwepo wa mungu, ila tu hiyo phenomenon Iko sawa

 

[Ibn Unuq]

Iko verified through, examples alizo mention awali,
‎"Ni ajabu isiyoeleweka kwa nini hesabu zilizoundwa bila kujali ulimwengu wa kimwili zinafanya kazi vizuri sana kueleza ulimwengu huo. Hakuna maelezo ya kawaida ya hili." Hicho ndo alicho maanisha kujua hiyo link? Sio kwamba ni kwasababu ya uwepo wa mungu, ila tu hiyo phenomenon Iko sawa

Nishaelezea hilo.
Una changamoto yeyote kwenye uelewa?

Je, hesabu zilibuniwa na binadamu kulingana na ulimwengu unavyokwenda au hesabu zilikuwepo kabla ya binadamu kuwepo?

 

[Gunner11]

Nishaelezea hilo.
Una changamoto yeyote kwenye uelewa?

Je, hesabu zilibuniwa na binadamu kulingana na ulimwengu unavyokwenda au hesabu zilikuwepo kabla ya binadamu kuwepo?

Unaproof yoyote? Kuhusu Hilo? Nani kasema hesabu ilikuwepo before human existence? Kwahiyo just because binadamu kaja na kitu unasema kilikuwepo before? Hiyo ni minds creation, how can it exists before?

 

[Ibn Unuq]

Unaproof yoyote? Kuhusu Hilo? Nani kasema hesabu ilikuwepo before human existence? Kwahiyo just because binadamu kaja na kitu unasema kilikuwepo before? Hiyo ni minds creation, how can it exists before?

Nilikuuliza hapo awali kama unachangamoto yeyote kwenye uelewa? Hujajibu.

Sasa hapo umeuliza swali au umejibu swali?
Kwanini unafanya To queue logical fallacy?

 

[Funny boe]

Nilikuuliza hapo awali kama unachangamoto yeyote kwenye uelewa? Hujajibu.

Sasa hapo umeuliza swali au umejibu swali?
Kwanini unafanya To queue logical fallacy?

Mkuu, hawa watu utawamaliza utawafanya uzi wao waukimbie sasa

 

[Gunner11]

Nilikuuliza hapo awali kama unachangamoto yeyote kwenye uelewa? Hujajibu.

Sasa hapo umeuliza swali au umejibu swali?
Kwanini unafanya To queue logical fallacy?

Wewe ndo unachamgamoto ya kuelewa, Bora ungesema both ends of the spectrum hazina jibu? Ila that doesn't mean opinion ya mleta mada Haina logical consistency, j kingine you're not that special, you know nothing just like everyone, egoism na kuwa triggered ni source ya ignorance.

 

[rip faza_nelly]

Wewe ndo unachamgamoto ya kuelewa, Bora ungesema both ends of the spectrum hazina jibu? Ila that doesn't mean opinion ya mleta mada Haina logical consistency, j kingine you're not that special, you know nothing just like everyone, egoism na kuwa triggered ni source ya ignorance.

Nashauri jamaa asikujibu kitu maana binafsi naona kama hoja zake zimekuzidi kilogram

 

[Ibn Unuq]

Wewe ndo unachamgamoto ya kuelewa, Bora ungesema both ends of the spectrum hazina jibu? Ila that doesn't mean opinion ya mleta mada Haina logical consistency, j kingine you're not that special, you know nothing just like everyone, egoism na kuwa triggered ni source ya ignorance.

Kuandika kwa hasira na kutumia kejeli kunazidi tu kuthibitisha ujinga ulionao.

Tatizo ni kwamba huwezi kutulia kwenye mada hata kidogo,
Ukipewa mifano, unaacha hoja, unaanza kuishambulia mifano kwa sababu huna majibu ya uhakika.

Ukiulizwa swali hujibu, unaanza kuuliza maswali mengine ili kuficha ujinga wako wa kutokuwa na hoja.

Honestly, you sound completely useless to me.

 

[Gunner11]

Kuandika kwa hasira na kutumia kejeli kunazidi tu kuthibitisha ujinga ulionao.

Tatizo ni kwamba huwezi kutulia kwenye mada hata kidogo,
Ukipewa mifano, unaacha hoja, unaanza kuishambulia mifano kwa sababu huna majibu ya uhakika.

Ukiulizwa swali hujibu, unaanza kuuliza maswali mengine ili kuficha ujinga wako wa kutokuwa na hoja.

Honestly, you sound completely useless to me.

You know what, that doesn't make any sense to me... To argue instead of showing each other a way out.

The shit you're trying to cling to, is nothing but a psychological illusion..

Kwa maneno yako mwenyewe uliuliza swali...

Nishaelezea hilo.
Una changamoto yeyote kwenye uelewa?

Je, hesabu zilibuniwa na binadamu kulingana na ulimwengu unavyokwenda au hesabu zilikuwepo kabla ya binadamu kuwepo?

Nikakuuliza una proof yoyote? Nikiwa na maana najua zipo before? Ila we wouldn't have known if they existed until tulivyo kuza ujuzi wetu. Mleta mada alisema Kuna ile link, (intuition like) ambayo inamfanya binadamu kupata, awareness ya kujua laws na mathematical expression of forces running both the world, and outer space.

He meant kwamba Kuna creator au tuseme force ambayo inasababisha process nzima itokee, tuiite(mungu)...

Wewe umekuja na hoja eti kipi kilitangulia, of course tunajua sote, zipo before.., je umeshawahi kufiatilia ancient mysteries ma pyramid yalijengwaje? Wale watu wa dogon walijuaje mipangilio ya nyota.. and so on... Of course utakuja na vitu kama ilitokea tu, okay what about telepathy!

Mimi sikuja Kwa namna ambayo wewe upon, kutetea kitu nisicho na uhakika, nilikuja kuquestion! Wewe ndo unakuja na ignorant mentality ya kuona hoja yako ipo right. Infact we are just animals, we bark using words we are not aware of.

Sipendi kuprove ujinga, na kuonesha I know anything. How can I be useful to someone who don't know who they are.?

 

[Ibn Unuq]

You know what, that doesn't make any sense to me... To argue instead of showing each other a way out.

The shit you're trying to cling to, is nothing but a psychological illusion..

Kwa maneno yako mwenyewe uliuliza swali...

Nikakuuliza una proof yoyote? Nikiwa na maana najua zipo before? Ila we wouldn't have known if they existed until tulivyo kuza ujuzi wetu. Mleta mada alisema Kuna ile link, (intuition like) ambayo inamfanya binadamu kupata, awareness ya kujua laws na mathematical expression of forces running both the world, and outer space.

He meant kwamba Kuna creator au tuseme force ambayo inasababisha process nzima itokee, tuiite(mungu)...

Wewe umekuja na hoja eti kipi kilitangulia, of course tunajua sote, zipo before.., je umeshawahi kufiatilia ancient mysteries ma pyramid yalijengwaje? Wale watu wa dogon walijuaje mipangilio ya nyota.. and so on... Of course utakuja na vitu kama ilitokea tu, okay what about telepathy!

Mimi sikuja Kwa namna ambayo wewe upon, kutetea kitu nisicho na uhakika, nilikuja kuquestion! Wewe ndo unakuja na ignorant mentality ya kuona hoja yako ipo right. Infact we are just animals, we bark using words we are not aware of.

Sipendi kuprove ujinga, na kuonesha I know anything. How can I be useful to someone who don't know who they are.?

Don’t act like a victim over problems you created yourself.

Unaongea kuhusu hiyo connection as if ni proven fact wakati hakuna hata proof yeyote.
There’s no proof kwamba maths, theories or scientific discoveries zina connection na some unseen force or hidden intelligence.

Humans observe patterns kwenye universe, then they create explanations and symbolic systems to describe what they see,
Sasa hiyo haimaanishi kwamba waliogundua maths and theories wamepata ultimate truth of existence.

Science and theories keep changing all the time, which already proves kwamba human knowledge ni limited.
Na ukweli ni kwamba jinsi maths na theories zinavyofanya kazi doesn’t automatically prove kuna cosmic intelligence nyuma yake, maths and theories inaweza kuwa ni language humans created to organize their observations tu.

So kama mleta mada anasema hiyo connection kati ya mtu na unseen being ipo, basi kazi ya kuthibitisha hiyo claim ni yake, usinipe mimi mzigo wa kuthibitisha kwamba haipo.

Na kama wewe unamuunga mkono, basi msaidie kuthibitisha badala ya kuizungumza kama ni established truth wakati bado ni imagination na assumptions tu.

Can you actually prove it, or yo’re just decorating guesses with confidence and calling it truth?